[1.2] Fly-by-wire nose cone needs a signal?

[Kelderek]

I am playing a 1.2 career game and just had an unexpected experience on one of my missions.  I flew to Eve to drop an unmanned station onto the surface for a contract.  It was my first mission to Eve in this save, so I wanted to bring back a bunch of science.  To maximize my return I decided to bring a small command pod with Bob on board so he could restore the materials bay and goo experiments a couple times for in space high and near Eve science.  Once I dropped the station down to the planet, Bob was ready to return home.  The only probe core and antennas I added had been for the station which I left behind on Eve, these allowed me to control the entire flight up to that point.  For the return home the ship was mostly just a command pod, a science storage box and a fly-by-wire nose cone.  I soon discovered that I could no longer fully control the command pod because I did not have a signal back to Kerbin (My tracking station is fully upgraded, but with the built in 5k antenna of the command pod, I had no signal in orbit of Eve).

With this setup I'm not sure how the problem splits up, but with a manned non-pilot command pod and a fly-by-wire nose cone and no probe core I could not create maneuver nodes -- has this always been the case even before CommNet signals?  Does this mean that the only way to make new nodes is to have a pilot or a probe core with a signal?  If so, then that really lessens the usefulness of the fly-by-wire nose cone - you would always want to use a probe core + antenna instead.

If this is new since the CommNet was added, then I would question whether it really makes sense for the fly-by-wire nose cone to not allow maneuver nodes.

[moogoob]

I think the answer is "Bob can't operate the computers by himself as he's not a pilot, thus needs ground control to do it for him and they can't because he can't get any cell phone reception"

As far as I understand the comm net features so far, at least.

[Kelderek]

I guess what I'm wondering is if this is new in 1.2 that this nose cone does not allow maneuver nodes or has it always been that way?  Perhaps someone still playing 1.1 might be able to check.  Slap an avionics nose cone on a command pod with Bob or Bill inside and see if you can make a maneuver node.

If this is new in 1.2, then it would seem to really negate the usefulness of that part because you would always need a probe core and antenna anyway and the probe core would do the same work that this nose cone does.  My own opinion is that this part should remain and provide the SAS control and also maneuver nodes, essentially treating any scientists and engineers as ordinary pilots.  It would fit that niche use of sending kerbals into space even if you don't have a communications network yet and not always having to rely on pilots.  It would only work with a kerbal on board, so it doesn't circumvent the use of probe cores for unmanned missions.

[Jarin]

You'd need a signal for a probe core as well, as I understand it. That's new in 1.2. 

[Kelderek]

1 hour ago, Jarin said:

You'd need a signal for a probe core as well, as I understand it. That's new in 1.2. 

Yes I know, but I had expected to be able to use just a command pod with a non-pilot along with an avionics nose cone and have that be enough to fully control a vessel (just like a pilot can) and not need any probe core or antenna with a signal.

If not having a pilot means that you must use a probe core plus antenna and signal, then what purpose does the avionics nose cone serve?

I would love it if someone running an older version like 1.1 could test out a non-pilot with the avionics nose cone and see if you can make maneuver nodes.  If the nodes worked before, then I am curious if it is intentional that they require a signal in 1.2.  I personally think it should not require a signal at all.

[Jarin]

The nose cone has the unenviable position of being a probe core that still needs a Kerbal onboard, so... honestly, I'm not seeing the use right now. That'll probably change at some point.

[pincushionman]

The whole point of the nose-cone core was to allow a Scientist or Engineer to act like a pilot; the loss of functionality is definitely a 1.2 thing.

You should post this in the 1.2pre subforum so the devs see it while they can still address it before release - it's a special case that apparently got overlooked in the communication overhaul.

[Plusck]

I agree with @pincushionman.

The fly-by-wire core should be doing what's written on the box: it's a computer that does the flying for non-pilots, as long as there's someone sitting in the pilot's seat pushing buttons.

So yes, it's a special case.

On the other hand, the part itself doesn't entirely make sense. It's got an inbuilt antenna, which strongly suggests that somebody else somewhere is doing the "flying". It doesn't need SAS to be activated to allow the non-pilot to pilot the ship, which also suggests outside help. And it isn't all that expensive for what has to be an extremely complicated bit of kit.

So I'd say that it needs some tweaking to remain logical in the comm net context: basically the ship should be uncontrollable if SAS is not activated. I'm not sure about the maneuvre nodes thing, though. It does seem logical that without a link to ground control, calculating nodes is a bit beyond a 5,200-funds part...

[strider3]

Hmmm...just ran into this problem myself, on my first 1.2 career. I am "cheating", and not requiring comms, in this 1st 1.2 career. I have the nosecone and a tourist in the MK1 pod...but no control whatsoever. Me thinks this used to work in 1.1...even with a tourist? Or maybe a failed synapse is rearing it's ugly head?

[bewing]

The nosecone gives you full SAS modes, but that's all it ever gave you. It never gave you maneuver nodes.

The full/partial/no control status is a CommNet thing, and has nothing to do with the nosecone. If you have a pilot on board, you always have full control. A probe core, scientist, or engineer with no connectivity has partial control. A tourist or empty pod with no connectivity has no control. If you have connectivity then you always have full control, because a master pilot at Mission Control is flying your ship for you.

Edited December 22, 2016 by bewing

[strider3]

20 hours ago, bewing said:

The nosecone gives you full SAS modes, but that's all it ever gave you. It never gave you maneuver nodes.

The full/partial/no control status is a CommNet thing, and has nothing to do with the nosecone. If you have a pilot on board, you always have full control. A probe core, scientist, or engineer with no connectivity has partial control. A tourist or empty pod with no connectivity has no control. If you have connectivity then you always have full control, because a master pilot at Mission Control is flying your ship for you.

If I made my career mode setting to not require the CommNet...doesn't that do away with the need for connectivity?

[bewing]

1 hour ago, Victor3 said:

If I made my career mode setting to not require the CommNet...doesn't that do away with the need for connectivity?

Yes.

[strider3]

33 minutes ago, bewing said:

Yes.

Doesn't seem to be working that way, in this case? I double-checked my career difficulty settings and they are:

"Basic" - "enable comm network" is checked.

"Advanced" - "require signal for control" is unchecked.

Perhaps the basic setting is the problem? I thought that this basic setting would just enable you to "see" the network and the advanced setting removed the requirement for a signal, thus allowing the nosecone to have full SAS?

What thinks you, B?

Edited December 23, 2016 by strider3

[bewing]

Hmmm. Maybe those settings need to be reworded.

"Enable Comm Network" turns all of CommNet on and off. So yes, that's the problem.

"Require signal for control" has to do with Limited Control Mode within CommNet. Basically it eliminates the whole concept of Limited Control Mode. With no connectivity, your probes become bricks.

 

[strider3]

12 minutes ago, bewing said:

Hmmm. Maybe those settings need to be reworded.

"Enable Comm Network" turns all of CommNet on and off. So yes, that's the problem.

"Require signal for control" has to do with Limited Control Mode within CommNet. Basically it eliminates the whole concept of Limited Control Mode. With no connectivity, your probes become bricks.

 

Alrighty, then. Let me turn off the "Enable Comm Network" setting and see what happens. I do plan on adding the Comm Network requirement in the future...just trying to get 1.2 down pat before I go "super hard" mode.

As always...thanks bewing!

[strider3]

and yep, you were right (as is usually the case) B.

"when I grow up, I want to use KSP with full difficulty"

Thanks, Bro...hope you had a great Holidays and New Years!