Science Question

[BentRim]

I built a ship using this tutorial for a trip to the Mun.  I added some Science Jr's to the sides of it and I also have an antenna to transmit data.  What I didn't realize was that transmitting data uses a lot of electricity and depletes my batteries rather quickly.  I also didn't know that transmitting science comes with a penalty in the form of reduced value.  The options I have are to continue and wait it out while my solar panels recharge batteries, and transmit what data I can,  start over with a re-design and lose the progress I have made,  or keep the data and attempt re-entry and recovery of data.  

When following the tutorial I attached the Science to the side of the craft as described but below my coupler.  This stage is then lost and burns up during re-entry if I take it that far back to Kerbin or is left to orbit.  

If I take it home and it burns up do I lose all the Science data when I recover Jeb and his passenger, or is the science data retained?  Whats my best option to get as much science from this attempt... or do I just scrap it and rebuild?

Here's a screenshot of the craft in orbit around the Mun.  

[Draalo]

Are you able to go on EVA? (Buildings upgrade needed)

Then you can go outside, rightklick all experiments and "take data". After boarding all that data is stored inside the capsule, no need to carry the experiments back to Kerbin.

 

You can also rightclick the antenna and select "allow partial" - the transmission will continue as EC refills.

Edit: The penalty is only temporary - If you send a new Vessel and make that experiment again you ll get the missing science.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Draalo

[Cubfan]

I would scrap it and rebuild. I would ditch the passenger compartment, too, unless you have tourist. MK-1 or lander can early on. Science Jr is transmit or recover only. If you build it in-line behind your cockpit, with a heat-shield underneath you can bring it home. Go for a water landing for the softer impact. 

P.S. With reusable equipment, transmit first, then record the data again and bring it home. That way you get all the science you can.

[Aegolius13]

In terms of a redesign - have you tried to reenter with the current design yet?  I've found final stages of an Mk 1 passenger cabin + Mk 1 command pod to be very hard to reenter with.  The ship wants to flip around so that the Mk 1 pod is facing forward (to to center of mass being forward).  In that orientation, the ship is aerodynamically smooth facing forward, so it does not slow down much during descent.  End result for me was a rather explodey impact with the ground.  If I remember, using drogue chutes helped a little, but it was still pretty hairy.  Your mileage may vary, however.

[WanderingKid]

EVA and snag the science out of one of the Science Jr's.  You can't keep multiple copies of the exact same experiment in the pod, so either use the Science Jr. for another experiment somewhere and keep that, or ditch it.

From there, head home.  As to @Aegolius13's concern, it looks like you have a heat shield on the back of the Passenger cabin.  That should be round enough to keep yourself aimed retrograde and be able to bring it in safely.

On a side note, I know how frustrating it is to do something and not get it quite right, or doing the things you want.  Rebuilding the mission over and over through trial and error is actually part of the core game design and the designer's vision for the game.  There are many mods and tools that can help you avoid having to do that once you learn what the moving parts are, and there's tons of information on the wiki once you've learned what you even need to know (like how much electricity it takes to transmit data, or that SOME science has different transmission values than return values).  However, we've all been there.  

[GoSlash27]

BentRim,

 I'd recommend starting over. I don't think that thing will survive reentry even without the stage and science jrs. You might have a chance if you move the surface mounted parachutes way up on the nose, but that's the sort of thing you want to test before launching it with a crew.

There's definitely no way the Sci Jrs will survive reentry like that.

Good luck,
-Slashy

[Cubfan]

21 minutes ago, WanderingKid said:

EVA and snag the science out of one of the Science Jr's.  You can't keep multiple copies of the exact same experiment in the pod, so either use the Science Jr. for another experiment somewhere and keep that, or ditch it.

From there, head home.  As to @Aegolius13's concern, it looks like you have a heat shield on the back of the Passenger cabin.  That should be round enough to keep yourself aimed retrograde and be able to bring it in safely.

On a side note, I know how frustrating it is to do something and not get it quite right, or doing the things you want.  Rebuilding the mission over and over through trial and error is actually part of the core game design and the designer's vision for the game.  There are many mods and tools that can help you avoid having to do that once you learn what the moving parts are, and there's tons of information on the wiki once you've learned what you even need to know (like how much electricity it takes to transmit data, or that SOME science has different transmission values than return values).  However, we've all been there.  

Amen, brother. Rinse and repeat. And never give up.

[Snark]

1 hour ago, Draalo said:

Are you able to go on EVA? (Buildings upgrade needed)

Then you can go outside, rightklick all experiments and "take data". After boarding all that data is stored inside the capsule, no need to carry the experiments back to Kerbin.

^ This.  You can recover the science without recovering the instruments.

20 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

 I'd recommend starting over. I don't think that thing will survive reentry even without the stage and science jrs.

I dunno, it looks reasonably reenterable to me.  I see that there's a heat shield below the passenger compartment.  Yes, the radial parachutes are exposed to airflow, but my experience has been that they tend to be reasonably heat-resistant during reentry.  I don't think I've ever had a ship where radial parachutes burned off but the rest of the ship survived.  Assuming he's not coming in super-fast or anything (i.e. no higher than 3000ish m/s), it looks like it ought to be fine, to me.

Especially if there's any fuel left in that bottom stage, so that the Terrier could slow it down some after it hits the top of the atmosphere, before decoupling.  But even if there's no fuel left and the topmost stage enters at full munar-reentry speed, my guess is that it's probably okay as long as it holds retrograde.

[BentRim]

Thanks for the suggestions.  This is my second build with this craft and I forgot that I had added a cabin and a heat shield underneath it as to complete a tourist contract.  I'm not really good at EVA but I had done ten or so rescue missions so I can do it but it can take me an hour or so to get back in the command module.  

The tip on EVA to gather science is helpful because I did not know to do that.  I also didn't realize that science was cumulative and capped such that even if I transmit the data it's not really a penalty and that I can get the rest at a later date.  

I am getting good at quicksave and reload however :-)  

This game for me is more like a mental puzzle rather than a game.  Each time I learn something new and how to deal with it another challenge pops up with another hurdle to overcome.  At this point the only mod I am using is Precise Maneuver as I was struggling with dragging the vectors on the stock nodes and found that incredibly frustrating.  

I did re-enter Kerbin and was able to survive.  Jeb and his passenger landed in the Desert but nothing else survived. I will re-load my save and attempt to EVA to gather all my science or transmit it and make some changes and go back to the Mun...

Thanks for all the tips and assistance.  I do appreciate it.  

 

[GoSlash27]

2 minutes ago, Snark said:

^ This.  You can recover the science without recovering the instruments.

I dunno, it looks reasonably reenterable to me.  I see that there's a heat shield below the passenger compartment.  Yes, the radial parachutes are exposed to airflow, but my experience has been that they tend to be reasonably heat-resistant during reentry.  I don't think I've ever had a ship where radial parachutes burned off but the rest of the ship survived.  Assuming he's not coming in super-fast or anything (i.e. no higher than 3000ish m/s), it looks like it ought to be fine, to me.

Especially if there's any fuel left in that bottom stage, so that the Terrier could slow it down some after it hits the top of the atmosphere, before decoupling.  But even if there's no fuel left and the topmost stage enters at full munar-reentry speed, my guess is that it's probably okay as long as it holds retrograde.

Snark,

 The issue (which thankfully didn't seem to be a problem here) is that the shape won't hold a retrograde attitude. If the center of mass is above the geometric center (which it would be in this case), there's a good chance it will flip. Likewise, if the bottom is draggier than the top, same deal.

 I recommend moving the chutes up not to keep them from getting fried, but to create more drag in the nose during reentry.

Best,
-Slashy

[BentRim]

4 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

Snark,

 The issue (which thankfully didn't seem to be a problem here) is that the shape won't hold a retrograde attitude. If the center of mass is above the geometric center (which it would be in this case), there's a good chance it will flip. Likewise, if the bottom is draggier than the top, same deal.

 I recommend moving the chutes up not to keep them from getting fried, but to create more drag in the nose during reentry.

Best,
-Slashy

Honestly,  I've experienced the ship flipping and turning into a bullet before...  I'm not sure why it did not happen this time but it actually seemed stable and didn't even attempt to flip.  I did have SAS on and locked on retrograde.

I did have a lot of fuel left in the last stage and used it all burning retrograde to slow it down before letting it go.

Edited January 29, 2017 by BentRim

[GoSlash27]

3 minutes ago, BentRim said:

Honestly,  I've experienced the ship flipping and turning into a bullet before...  I'm not sure why it did not happen this time but it actually seemed stable and didn't even attempt to flip.  I did have SAS on and locked on retrograde.

I did have a lot of fuel left in the last stage and used it all burning retrograde to slow it down before letting it go.

BentRim,

 You got home safe. That's the most important part

Kudos,
-Slashy

[Snark]

19 minutes ago, BentRim said:

I did re-enter Kerbin and was able to survive.

Woot!  Congratulations.

19 minutes ago, BentRim said:

I'm not really good at EVA but I had done ten or so rescue missions so I can do it but it can take me an hour or so to get back in the command module.

Don't worry, it gets better with practice. 

What's your specific difficulty with EVA?

When I was new to KSP, the single most helpful tip I got for maneuvering on EVA was:  SLOW DOWN.  Slow slow slow.  Use the briefest possible taps on the maneuvering thrusters; keep the speed down to just a few centimeters per second.  Makes things a lot easier.

If you're still in the early stages of earning your wings on EVA, it can also help to mount an extra ladder rung or two just below the command pod-- gives you a little bigger target to grab onto.

13 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

 The issue (which thankfully didn't seem to be a problem here) is that the shape won't hold a retrograde attitude. If the center of mass is above the geometric center (which it would be in this case), there's a good chance it will flip. Likewise, if the bottom is draggier than the top, same deal.

Sure.  Ships that are aerodynamically unstable and can't keep the heat shield end forward will run into problems.

I gave the above advice because this ship seemed reasonably aero-stable to me.  The passenger cabin's not that much less dense than the command pod, and the heat shield actually helps a fair amount, if it's got a full load of ablator-- it's fairly dense (adds 300 kg to the hot end, without adding much height).  And the command pod has a fair amount of torque available, which helps hold it if it's slightly aerodynamically unstable.

Also, I've entered pretty much exactly that vehicle before (i.e. command pod, Mk1 cabin, heat shield, Mk16 parachute, two radial parachutes) and had no problems at all, so I was reasonably confident he'd be okay.    Admittedly, when I've done it, I think it was just from LKO rather than a munar reentry, so not quite as high a speed, but it seemed like a pretty good bet.

[Draalo]

Before you go on EVA to collect science point the vessel normal - target the pink triangle on the navball.

On EVA the vessel points upwards in cameraview. Much easier to steer with WASD.

And press "U" when on EVA to switch on the helmet lights. Helps orientating when close to the hatch.

[bewing]

If you were to redo the mission one more time (with more solar panels), take a scientist as the second passenger in the crew cabin. Scientists can do more on EVA than Jeb can. It would take some slightly annoying switching-around while traveling to the Mun to get the scientist in the front and Jeb in the back, and then you'd have to do it again before reenty. But with a scientist moved into the command pod, you can transmit an experiment, then the scientist EVAs, resets the unit, takes another reading, goes and stores it in the crew cabin (from outside), goes back to the unit, takes another reading, resets the unit again, and goes and stores that data in the command pod when reboarding. (After taking an EVA report, too, of course.) And then you can take more readings when crossing into a new biome region. With that resetting capability, you get a lot more science per trip.

[BentRim]

Again thanks for the support and the tips.

In regards to my difficulties with EVA:

I have trouble hitting the right keys. Especially Up and Down. I make mistakes tapping and the next thing I know I'm flying off the wrong direction.  I also have a hell of a time finding the hatch in the dark.

My gaming rig isn't ideal.  It's a laptop but it's all I have.  Steep learning curve but I'm getting there.

[DD_bwest]

Im not sure if its been mentioned, but as soon as i unlock the new science containers, i add one to every manned mission.   Ill use it to collect all the data while jeb stays in to fly the ship.  it avoids having to eva alot and clicking on all the gear.   i usually place it on the decoupler for the return pod so that jeb can pull the data while holding onto the ladder where he gets out, then he can hop back in, decouple and your pod is ready for re entry.

once i get to mun landings and beyond, ill bring bob along to reset science gear.  But usually ill have an early mission for my first trip to mun and minmus + sun SOI, and ill bring 10 science jr's along(5 for kerbin, 2 for mun, 2 for minmus, 1 for the sun). With the science cans,  you can stick 3 or 4 science jr's  much lower on your rocket, and have the science can grab the data before they get staged out.

[Cubfan]

BentRim,

For a quick eva tip, hit the [ ] keys to switch focus back to your ship and use the q and e keys to spin your craft until the hatch is in the light (or spin it before you eva if you don't have any other way to control your vessel). Also, zoom in really close on your Kerbal. It makes it a lot easier to see and control your movement.

[Draalo]

Just to show how usefull the Lander Can and/or Probecores are.

As Bewing said, having a scientist aboard allows multiple readings and reseting of the Goo and the Science Jr. So you need to carry only 1 times the weight.

A Pilot in the upper Capsule steers:

The upper capsule can be replaced with a probe core.

Your tech-tree may differ, but you should get the Idea.

Allways remove the monoprop fromm capsules if you dont use RCS - spares some preciuos weight

Edited January 29, 2017 by Draalo
typo

[bewing]

47 minutes ago, BentRim said:

 I also have a hell of a time finding the hatch in the dark.

Even for an experienced KSP player, finding hatches can indeed be an annoying task.

It's been mentioned above by Draalo and cubfan, but bears repeating. If convenient, rotating your ship in advance so that the hatch is up (north) and pointing at the guy on EVA is indeed useful. But it doesn't work on huge orbital stations.

Beyond that, the helmet suit lights put out an unbelievable amount of light -- they can light up the side of a rocket as bright as daylight from 10 meters away. So there's no real reason to ever have to find a hatch in the dark.

 

 

[Snark]

45 minutes ago, bewing said:

Even for an experienced KSP player, finding hatches can indeed be an annoying task.

It's been mentioned above by Draalo and cubfan, but bears repeating. If convenient, rotating your ship in advance so that the hatch is up (north) and pointing at the guy on EVA is indeed useful. But it doesn't work on huge orbital stations.

Beyond that, the helmet suit lights put out an unbelievable amount of light -- they can light up the side of a rocket as bright as daylight from 10 meters away. So there's no real reason to ever have to find a hatch in the dark.

^ This.

The EVA suits put out a lot of light... but they're also fairly short range and fade to zero, so they only work after you get relatively close to the ship.

But... don't forget the handy "U" key.  Turning on your ship's lights will cause the command pods to light up, right where the hatch is.  It makes the ship visible from quite a long distance away, even in pitch blackness.  So.  Even if you're lost and blundering in the dark, too far for your suit lights to reach... just look for the hatch lights and go there.  Once you get pretty close, the EVA light will let you fine-tune your approach.

If you've left the ship unmanned and don't have a probe core on it, though, best remember to turn on the lights before you step outside. 

[BentRim]

I feel kind of stupid. I didn't know about lights....

125 hours in and I'm still learning the basics.

When EVA I set my camera to chase. There seems to be a point when I get close to the ship where everything flips over on the navball and that throws me off.

Also regarding building better crafts.  I'm only part way through the third tier on my tech tree so I'm limited in what I can do.

[bewing]

Yeah -- EVA seems to be a little special that way. I find that (unlike docking ships) when I get within 100m on EVA it's better to ignore the navball and do everything by eye.

[Snark]

49 minutes ago, BentRim said:

I feel kind of stupid. I didn't know about lights....

It's okay, don't worry-- we've all been there.  Heck, there's another thread that's been going on just recently in which a lot of folks didn't know that you could return focus to the current ship in map view by pressing backspace.  To take another example, I was playing KSP a stupidly long time before I found out that I could switch control between nearby ships by pressing [ and ]; I kept going back to KSC and the tracking station every time, all the while grumbling about "why the hell don't they have a couple of keys to do this".  Oh well, live and learn. 

Anyway, L will toggle your EVA kerbal's lights on and off, and U will toggle your ship's lights on and off.  Ship lights include cabin lights on crewed parts, also any of the floodlight or spotlight parts you have on there, also anything that you've manually added to the Light action group.

 

[BentRim]

I will have to read more about action groups. Something I didn't understand where ( or how )I would use them.  

Lots to learn...Lots to learn.