Sas/asas module

[Kerbinidiel]

Hi, i have a trouble with the latests updates of the game:

Before we got 3 stock sas/asas module...

But now (i'm using the 1.3 version) i can find only One parte in control with sas... And the command pods hasnt sas too...

Why we can't have sas? There is a fix to reenable sas to control parts and in the command pods? Or, there is a mod with sas control parts?

Thanks for your help 

[Gaarst]

All command pods have full SAS capability as long as you have an experience pilot on board (in career).

All probe cores but one (the Stayputnik) have as least a basic SAS function (heading hold), but some don't have any reaction wheels or very weak ones, preventing them from effectively using SAS.

[AeroGav]

58 minutes ago, Kerbinidiel said:

Hi, i have a trouble with the latests updates of the game:

Before we got 3 stock sas/asas module...

But now (i'm using the 1.3 version) i can find only One parte in control with sas... And the command pods hasnt sas too...

Why we can't have sas? There is a fix to reenable sas to control parts and in the command pods? Or, there is a mod with sas control parts?

Thanks for your help 

By SAS I think you mean the crude autopilot system that turns on when you press T.

For this to be available you either need to have 

• a pilot aboard somewhere on the vessel, even if he's only in a passenger cabin .  In career mode, as the pilot levels up, an increasing number of 
• or a sufficiently sophisticated probe core.   The basic Stayputnik has no SAS, but as you unlock increasingly hi tech models you get access to SAS with an increasing number of modes available
• sufficient comms link to space centre with tracking station.  I'm not too clear on this one but apparently the assistance can come remotely from the space centre itself if the right conditions are met, even if the craft itself would not normally have any SAS features

[Kerbinidiel]

41 minutes ago, AeroGav said:

By SAS I think you mean the crude autopilot system that turns on when you press T.

For this to be available you either need to have 

• a pilot aboard somewhere on the vessel, even if he's only in a passenger cabin .  In career mode, as the pilot levels up, an increasing number of 
• or a sufficiently sophisticated probe core.   The basic Stayputnik has no SAS, but as you unlock increasingly hi tech models you get access to SAS with an increasing number of modes available
• sufficient comms link to space centre with tracking station.  I'm not too clear on this one but apparently the assistance can come remotely from the space centre itself if the right conditions are met, even if the craft itself would not normally have any SAS features

I play in sandbox mode... and in the parts specs in SPH/VAB I not see the "sas" specification in noone command pod

[OhioBob]

8 minutes ago, Kerbinidiel said:

I play in sandbox mode... and in the parts specs in SPH/VAB I not see the "sas" specification in noone command pod

Command pods by themselves have no SAS capability.  The SAS capability comes with the pilot that you place in the command pod.  The amount of SAS capability depends on the experience level of the pilot.  Command pods can't function without a pilot. 

Since probe cores have no pilot, they do have SAS capability, though in varying amounts depending on the probe core.  Those that you discover later in the tech tree have more SAS functionality.

[Kerbinidiel]

8 minutes ago, OhioBob said:

Command pods by themselves have no SAS capability.  The SAS capability comes with the pilot that you place in the command pod.  The amount of SAS capability depends on the experience level of the pilot.  Command pods can't function without a pilot. 

Since probe cores have no pilot, they do have SAS capability, though in varying amounts depending on the probe core.  Those that you discover later in the tech tree have more SAS functionality.

I play in sandbox, not in career mode... the tech tree in sandbox not exist...

but the probe cores in the VAB/SPH not show me the "sas" in the description

[AeroGav]

14 minutes ago, Kerbinidiel said:

I play in sandbox mode... and in the parts specs in SPH/VAB I not see the "sas" specification in noone command pod

You will only see "SAS" in the description of probe cores that allow for unmanned operation.   These parts contain the computers and autopilots that allow the vessel to be controlled even if there no-one on the ship.

However, you won't see "SAS" in the description of the basic Stayputnik because it is too primitive. 

 You won't see "SAS" in the description of a crewed pod, because they don't contain autopilots - they just have a joystick, pedals or whatever that allows a Kerbal to steer the ship.   

You can put a crewed pod and a probe core on the same vessel if you want.

For example,  you could use a mk1 lander can, which has only one seat,  and also a probe core with SAS, so that even if the Kerbal is a Scientist or Engineer, you still get SAS.

In fact,  you would still have control of the ship if no-one is in the lander can.   So you could use this vessel for tourist missions , or rescue missions, where the ship launches empty.

Alternatively,  you could combine a crewed pod with the "Fly by Wire" hub (under the "Command And Control" parts).

This part allows a scientist, engineer or level 0 pilot to act like a Level 5 Pilot, with every SAS mode unlocked.   However it still requires a Kerbal at the controls.   If the craft is empty, or only contains tourists, it will not be controllable, so it's not the same as a probe core in that regard.

 

 

[Kerbinidiel]

5 minutes ago, AeroGav said:

You will only see "SAS" in the description of probe cores that allow for unmanned operation.   These parts contain the computers and autopilots that allow the vessel to be controlled even if there no-one on the ship.

However, you won't see "SAS" in the description of the basic Stayputnik because it is too primitive. 

 You won't see "SAS" in the description of a crewed pod, because they don't contain autopilots - they just have a joystick, pedals or whatever that allows a Kerbal to steer the ship.   

You can put a crewed pod and a probe core on the same vessel if you want.

For example,  you could use a mk1 lander can, which has only one seat,  and also a probe core with SAS, so that even if the Kerbal is a Scientist or Engineer, you still get SAS.

In fact,  you would still have control of the ship if no-one is in the lander can.   So you could use this vessel for tourist missions , or rescue missions, where the ship launches empty.

Alternatively,  you could combine a crewed pod with the "Fly by Wire" hub (under the "Command And Control" parts).

This part allows a scientist, engineer or level 0 pilot to act like a Level 5 Pilot, with every SAS mode unlocked.   However it still requires a Kerbal at the controls.   If the craft is empty, or only contains tourists, it will not be controllable, so it's not the same as a probe core in that regard.

 

 

thanks for the tips... i test it

[OhioBob]

4 minutes ago, Kerbinidiel said:

but the probe cores in the VAB/SPH not show me the "sas" in the description

It's there, you just have to expand the information window to show more info.  When you hover the mouse over the part you should see an information window pop up.  When that happens, right-click and the window expands to show more information.  The SAS specifications are shown in the expanded right side of the information window.  You'll probably have to scroll down using the scroll bar to see it, the SAS specs are usually toward the bottom.

[Kerbinidiel]

21 minutes ago, OhioBob said:

It's there, you just have to expand the information window to show more info.  When you hover the mouse over the part you should see an information window pop up.  When that happens, right-click and the window expands to show more information.  The SAS specifications are shown in the expanded right side of the information window.  You'll probably have to scroll down using the scroll bar to see it, the SAS specs are usually toward the bottom.

Found... thanks

[Spricigo]

15 hours ago, Kerbinidiel said:

I play in sandbox mode...

which means that everything one can unlock on carrer/science you already have by default.

[Kerbinidiel]

5 hours ago, Spricigo said:

which means that everything one can unlock on carrer/science you already have by default.

in the career mode u need unlock the tech tree with science points, gained with missions...

in the sandbox the tech tree is all unlocked... you can use all the parts... but you not have mission...

the game describes it to you when you start a new game...

[Spricigo]

2 hours ago, Kerbinidiel said:

in the career mode u need unlock the tech tree with science points, gained with missions...

in the sandbox the tech tree is all unlocked... you can use all the parts... but you not have mission...

the game describes it to you when you start a new game...

But seem you mised the same happens with astronaut skills.

In career kerbals gain experience and levels to unlock skils.

In sandbox you have access to all skills and astronauts are all max level. 

 

People reading those question will generally answer It with career in mind.  That's because 1) many questions originate from difficulties with the limitations present in carrer (part count, ship sizes, technology,  astronaut level,...) 2) many questions originate from difficulties with contract 3) people that reply play carrer and are used to that perpective. 4) what works for carrer usually also works for sandbox.

Sometimes we may be taken by surprise by a limitation of sandbox (e.g. R&D building closed) that requires a different approach (loonking online for technology and parts description)

 

 

PS: I guess the game tell us about the difference in that little window that we close without reading just before opening VAB/SPH/Mission Control or in the Create Game window.  I suppose I read it years ago when I started my first game. By now is assimilated knowledge I don't need to check whete it comes from.

 

[Kerbinidiel]

2 hours ago, Spricigo said:

But seem you mised the same happens with astronaut skills.

In career kerbals gain experience and levels to unlock skils.

In sandbox you have access to all skills and astronauts are all max level. 

 

People reading those question will generally answer It with career in mind.  That's because 1) many questions originate from difficulties with the limitations present in carrer (part count, ship sizes, technology,  astronaut level,...) 2) many questions originate from difficulties with contract 3) people that reply play carrer and are used to that perpective. 4) what works for carrer usually also works for sandbox.

Sometimes we may be taken by surprise by a limitation of sandbox (e.g. R&D building closed) that requires a different approach (loonking online for technology and parts description)

 

 

PS: I guess the game tell us about the difference in that little window that we close without reading just before opening VAB/SPH/Mission Control or in the Create Game window.  I suppose I read it years ago when I started my first game. By now is assimilated knowledge I don't need to check whete it comes from.

 

What you said is corretto, but i madre the question because the last time i player the game i saw the "sas" ability in many command pods description, not only in the prove cores... Obiouvsly with updates something in the game change

[Spricigo]

1 hour ago, Kerbinidiel said:

...the last time i player the game i saw the "sas" ability in many command pods description, not only in the prove cores... Obviously with updates something in the game change

I suppose that was a change to the description to avoid confusion since, as others explained, pods receive SAS from the pilot (IIRC in sandbox astronauts effectively have all specialization at lvl5).

Unless the last time you played was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far way. KSP used to be very different in ancient times.

[Kerbinidiel]

19 minutes ago, Spricigo said:

I suppose that was a change to the description to avoid confusion since, as others explained, pods receive SAS from the pilot (IIRC in sandbox astronauts effectively have all specialization at lvl5).

Unless the last time you played was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far way. KSP used to be very different in ancient times.

my last approach to the game was around the 0.90 or before

[Kerbinidiel]

ok i made some tests...

or now i forget how to create a spaceship... or the game is very modified!

when i'm in orbit with a simple rocket... with command pod, some reaction wheels and rcs thrusters... i select "T" to activate the sas... than i move a bit the rochet only with rcs and the sas works, but it use some seconds to stop the moving of my ship...

i remember, time ago, when i did the same thing... my ship return firm quite instantly...

and the same thing is while i use the rocket... i remember my ship fly in space firm... now is less firm...

repeat, i'm playing in the sandbox

 

EDIT: made another test... with a very simple rocket... the stock "orbit1" only with 4 stock rcs on the command pod... and, when in orbit, i made the same things: moved the pod around to test the stability... and the pod moved and return firm in a bit... great...

now i have one doubt... with a more complicated rocket or spaceship, i need to use more reaction wheel than past versions... more rcs thrusters? all this discussion is made because i see a lot of difference betwen how my creation was firm under my commands some time ago vs now...

(sorryfor my bad english... i hope to made my words understandable)

Edited October 3, 2017 by Kerbinidiel

[Spricigo]

2 hours ago, Kerbinidiel said:

. i select "T" to activate the sas... than i move a bit the rochet only with rcs and the sas works, but it use some seconds to stop the moving of my ship...

Probably SAS overcorrection. Because misalignment in RCS thrusters, the command for translation cause unintended rotation  (and vice versa) SAS try to use RCS to maintain orientation but that causes more unintended movement that SAS struggle to control. You can avoid that by setting your RCS thrusters to not answer to rotation commands on the right click menu(need advanced tweakables ebabled on settings)

Another possibility is that your craft is flexing and SAS is trying to follow your control point (pod/probe/port) while it wobble around. In that case you need either a more rigidly craft or less powerful reaction wheels/RCS thrusters. 

 

2 hours ago, Kerbinidiel said:

with a more complicated rocket or spaceship, i need to use more reaction wheel than past versions... more rcs thrusters?

More reaction wheels gives more torque, more RCS thrusters gives more thrust (that can generate more torque). It may be necessary to maneuvering a big ship with reasonable velocity but usually make the issues mentioned above worse.

2 hours ago, Kerbinidiel said:

my creation

For more specific advice relative to your craft we will need more info about it. A few images(worth more than words) of the craft is the ideal. In any case a lot changed from version 0.90 and your craft may benefit from an update. 

[bewing]

Yes, there have been large changes since 0.90. The SAS algorithm used to be very firm for some rockets and planes, and very unstable for other rockets and planes.

The algorithm was changed to make it more generic. It is now softer for almost all rockets and planes, but it works for almost all rockets and planes.

 

[Kerbinidiel]

this is my first attempt to a custom ship...

i got trouble with sas (not firm) and with the 2 wings on the back (too fragile)

but i love my work anyway 

USS Kraken by Rusty B., su Flickr

[Spricigo]

1 hour ago, Kerbinidiel said:

this is my first attempt to a custom ship...

i got trouble with sas (not firm) and with the 2 wings on the back (too fragile

Nice looking ship.

I'd try:

1. Reducing control authority, specifically guimballs and RCS Thrusters (I'd use RCS for translation only)

2.Use the AutoStrut feature (requires [allow advanced tweakables] enabled on settings) on the outhermost parts to improve structural integrity.  (Rigidity attachment on the wings can also reduce the wobbling but increase brittleness {a lot}, so use it only as a last resource)

 

You may consider RCS build aid, it provides dry CoM indicator and info about torque generated by RCS, gimball and parachutes. Just be sure to get the correct version. 

[Kerbinidiel]

1 hour ago, Spricigo said:

Nice looking ship.

I'd try:

1. Reducing control authority, specifically guimballs and RCS Thrusters (I'd use RCS for translation only)

2.Use the AutoStrut feature (requires [allow advanced tweakables] enabled on settings) on the outhermost parts to improve structural integrity.  (Rigidity attachment on the wings can also reduce the wobbling but increase brittleness {a lot}, so use it only as a last resource)

 

You may consider RCS build aid, it provides dry CoM indicator and info about torque generated by RCS, gimball and parachutes. Just be sure to get the correct version. 

this is the right mod i need for autostrut my ship?

https://www.spacedock.info/mod/977/Advanced Tweakables Button

[OhioBob]

12 minutes ago, Kerbinidiel said:

this is the right mod i need for autostrut my ship?

https://www.spacedock.info/mod/977/Advanced Tweakables Button

You don't need any mod.  Advanced tweakables is a game setting.

https://imgur.com/TZpyS3r
 

Edited October 3, 2017 by OhioBob

[Kerbinidiel]

53 minutes ago, OhioBob said:

You don't need any mod.  Advanced tweakables is a game setting.

https://imgur.com/TZpyS3r
 

thanks! now i try it

 

EDIT: wow the autostrut works very well!! now the wings are attached forever

for the stability... i need try some rcs comfiguration... but with some tests i can finish my Trek ship

Edited October 3, 2017 by Kerbinidiel

[Kerbinidiel]

damn... is very difficoult!

another thing makes my ship not firm, when i fly in orbit: the center of mass of ship not perfectly alligned with engine vector...

i remember, obiouvsly in 0.90, if the mass was not perfectly centered was not a problem... setted the sas, the ship was firm in flying (in orbit i mean... not in atmosfere)

but now... whit this sas less strong... i activate my engine and the ship start to flip up or down (depending where the center of mass is)

i love all the new features, but i hate this not strong sas! this make me a little bit frustrated and restricts my creativity

i cant do nothing to fix it to have a strong sas as in 0.90? or other solution?

or i must only build my ships with the engine vector perfectly centered with the mass of my ships?

Edited October 6, 2017 by Kerbinidiel