Updated Terms Notice & Privacy Policy

[artwhaley]

 

1 minute ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

That isn't the concern. The new EULA allows Take Two to take much personal information from you. So much that they could identify you in almost anyway. The concern is that Take Two will get greedy and sell it,  OR that a hacker will take it. 

I DID read enough to gather that this is YOUR concern.   My point was...  your identifying data is so completely available to anyone that wants it.  Who, exactly, do you imagine is going to buy a list of people who play KSP and do something insidious with it?   

Getting all of our identities legit stolen would be a gigantic disaster for Take Two and would still expose them to criminal and civil liability.  So they're not going to risk that exposure.  Are they going to some day sell a list of our identities and whatever they know about our purchase habits to someone else that wants to sell us something that they think we might be a good fit for?   Quite probably.  But if you don't think those people could have also gotten your contact info and shopping habits from a couple of dozen other sources...  you're nuts.   Do you trust Facebook more than Take Two?   Amazon?  Google? 

But.... given this concern...   my question is...  why are you still here?   Uninstall the game and delete your forum account to limit your exposure.   If that's your real concern, address it.   It's kind of you to martyr your personal security to try to save all of us.... but your point's made.    Save yourself!   Unless... the point of all of this is less 'I'm legit worried' and more "I wonder how much I can stir up?" 

[Cheif Operations Director]

1 minute ago, artwhaley said:

 

I DID read enough to gather that this is YOUR concern.   My point was...  your identifying data is so completely available to anyone that wants it.  Who, exactly, do you imagine is going to buy a list of people who play KSP and do something insidious with it?   

Getting all of our identities legit stolen would be a gigantic disaster for Take Two and would still expose them to criminal and civil liability.  So they're not going to risk that exposure.  Are they going to some day sell a list of our identities and whatever they know about our purchase habits to someone else that wants to sell us something that they think we might be a good fit for?   Quite probably.  But if you don't think those people could have also gotten your contact info and shopping habits from a couple of dozen other sources...  you're nuts.   Do you trust Facebook more than Take Two?   Amazon?  Google? 

But.... given this concern...   my question is...  why are you still here?   Uninstall the game and delete your forum account to limit your exposure.   If that's your real concern, address it.   It's kind of you to martyr your personal security to try to save all of us.... but your point's made.    Save yourself!   Unless... the point of all of this is less 'I'm legit worried' and more "I wonder how much I can stir up?" 

I don't trust facebook or amazon or google with anything more that basic information.

I don't want to uninstall the game I paid 40 dollars. Nor do I want to delete my forum account I enjoy having it. 

[MechBFP]

3 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

I don't want to uninstall the game I paid 40 dollars. Nor do I want to delete my forum account I enjoy having it. 

That’s unfortunate for you. 

[Cheif Operations Director]

Just now, MechBFP said:

That’s unfortunate for you. 

Yes it is

[artwhaley]

52 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

I don't trust facebook or amazon or google with anything more that basic information.

I don't want to uninstall the game I paid 40 dollars. Nor do I want to delete my forum account I enjoy having it. 

Your facebook doesn't include enough information to identify you?   That's it's entire point.   And take a look at the ads if you'd like to know what information they have on you and share with others.  Does it seem odd that those ads just magically seem to relate to whatever you were googling two days earlier?  

And Amazon doesn't know your name, address, and banking details?  What exactly do you think TT is going to harvest that those companies haven't already figured out how to grab and monetize?  

And... yeah... well...  you pretty much said it there.   If this was that big a deal, you'd uninstall and delete your account.   Sticking around is you flat out agreeing 'yeah, the game's worth putting up with the EULA.'  And that's what they're counting on... and why they aren't going to change it.   If a few thousand people HAD uninstalled all at once...  they might have blinked.  But tantrums in the forum...  I doubt they've noticed that yet.

[steve_v]

5 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

If I log into a bank account and set it to "remember me" and then Take Two has the right to mine my computer for banking information... I want you to connect the dots.

So don't use that checkbox? Most responsible banking websites don't even have one, due to session hijacking concerns.
This is completely irrelevant anyway. I'll say it slowly this time, as you still don't seem to be hearing me: KSP. Is. Not. Collecting. Your. Data. (outside of the well-documented analytics)
If you want to claim that it is, the burden of proof is on you. Where is your evidence for this activity?
Who cares what the EULA claims they can do, because they're not.

It's also a non-issue because it's trivially easy to prevent KSP from sending out any data, even if it was collecting it. This is what firewalls are for, and you should be using one regardless. I'm expect Windoze even comes with one these days.
One could even sandbox KSP so it can't read any sensitive files to begin with, this is easy on GNU/Linux. Microsoft probably considers such functionality too confusing for its target audience though.

 

5 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

How do you do that, and firewalls can be broken.

In the same sentence, you say that you don't know how to set up a firewall and claim that firewalls can be broken, which implies an in-depth knowledge of such things. The mind boggles.

 

5 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

They technically have unalienable rights... , until they sign them away.

You may want to look up the definition of that word...

 

4 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

The new EULA allows Take Two to take much personal information from you. So much that they could identify you in almost anyway. The concern is that Take Two will get greedy and sell it,  OR that a hacker will take it. 

So firewall it. It's been suggested repeatedly, if you are so concerned, why have you not done this already? You have time to argue here, so you have time to research how to do this.
If you are running Windows, and I assume you are, take a proper look at what your PC is sending out and to where. KSP is the least of your concerns.

 

4 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

I don't trust facebook or amazon or google with anything more that basic information.

If you have a faceborg account, with any information and/or friends in it, then faceborg has enough information to identify you, your friends, family, where you live, work, and what you like for dinner.
If anyone thinks they can give social media "basic information" and escape this, they are flat-out deluded. It's their business model, and they are extremely good at it. Google is too.

 

3 hours ago, artwhaley said:

Your facebook doesn't include enough information to identify you?

ROFL, I doubt it. But dreams are free.

Edited March 12, 2018 by steve_v

[klgraham1013]

8 hours ago, artwhaley said:

 If a few thousand people HAD uninstalled all at once...  they might have blinked. 

Eh.  Maybe.  A few thousand in a sea of millions is still small potatoes.

7 hours ago, steve_v said:

Windoze...Microsoft probably considers such functionality too confusing for its target audience though.

Bill Gates kick your dog or something?

 

7 hours ago, steve_v said:

faceborg

Man.  You're on a roll.  Hack the planet, man.  Show those corporations who's boss.

[steve_v]

11 minutes ago, klgraham1013 said:

Bill Gates kick your dog or something?

Gates? No, nothing to do with it. It's just a rubbish operating system. Every time I'm forced to use it, I find myself reaching for advanced functionality that isn't there.
So how do you create per-application sandboxes on Windoze then? Got chroot? Anything built into the OS? Anything at all that isn't non-free and not-free?

 

13 minutes ago, klgraham1013 said:

Show those corporations who's boss.

If you like that monstrosity, good for you. I don't. It's not like I think poking fun at it bothers them though, why would it?
Did I kick your puppy? How sad.

[klgraham1013]

14 minutes ago, steve_v said:

Did I kick your puppy? How sad.

Not at all!  I just chuckled at someone insulting companies using 90's playground tactics.

[nightstalker101s]

I'm dying XD. I can't believe this is spiraling from who owns modded content and the legality of making mods under the new EULA to conspiracy theories that Take Two is stealing your information to sell it to an underground syndicate. Every game you have ever owned (especially online games) has this same or almost identical EULA. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by nightstalker101s

[nightstalker101s]

I guess I'll say a little more although I know it is a waste of my time. 

1. If I share a picture I own the rights to on the forum and one of the forum administrators shares its elsewhere then I have the right legally to take action. The EULA's purpose is to prevent these accidental actions of its employees from leading to a lawsuit.

2. If you have an awesome mod that makes the game more functional and you post a link to the content with a decription, Take Two cannot steal your mod or code. Please note that this is if you shared a link to another site. If you posted the content directly to their site then they again have rights to it.  What they can do because you have explained its purpose is to recreate the content themselves. The other site is out of their reach. They then don't have to credit you and most likely won't credit you as they have recreated it. You have given them the right to "STEAL" your idea by posting it to the forum. Which again is to protect the company from being sued or having other legal action taken. 

3. The EULA is written in a way to protect the company. Not to steal your identity and blackmail you into sending them nudes. 

 

Edited March 12, 2018 by nightstalker101s

[Devnull.13]

7 minutes ago, nightstalker101s said:

I guess I'll say a little more although I know it is a waste of my time. 

1. If I share a picture I own the rights to on the forum and one of the forum administrators shares its elsewhere then I have the right legally to take action. The EULA's purpose is to prevent these accidental actions of its employees from leading to a lawsuit.

2. If you have an awesome mod that makes the game more functional and you post a link to the content with a decription, Take Two cannot steal your mod or code. Please note that this is if you shared a link to another site. If you posted the content directly to their site then they again have rights to it.  What they can do because you have explained its purpose is to recreate the content themselves. The other site is out of their reach. They then don't have to credit you and most likely won't credit you as they have recreated it. You have given them the right to "STEAL" your idea by posting it to the forum. Which again is to protect the company from being sued or having other legal action taken. 

3. The EULA is written in a way to protect the company. Not to steal your identity and blackmailed you into sending them nudes. 

 

I could not say it in a better way. 

At this point i am way more worried with any limitation that Take 2 may impose in some mod creation and the actions they may take with those kind of mods which can damage the moding community 

[nightstalker101s]

Agreed. The issue is whether Take Two considers the use of reworking parts or viewing modding which does not involve KSP actual parts/code as somehow violating the user agreement. If they were to view these activities as a breach they would A. Destroy the modding community and B. Take legal action against those modders. Most likely a simple cease and desist notice followed by more sever action in the even the individual fails to comply. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by nightstalker101s

[Derb]

9 minutes ago, nightstalker101s said:

You have given them the right to "STEAL" your idea by posting it to the forum.

Close, but not quite. Copyright law itself actually allows for this, because ideas aren't the copyrightable part of a work - the content is. I could develop my own game about little alien men building rockets, but that doesn't mean it infringes on Kerbal Space Program, unless I start using content from that game or replicate it to the degree that it is substantially similar. If I develop some mod parts, and T2 wants to make similar parts ... that's all good, unless they copy my designs exactly or near exactly. But I don't need to post the idea to the forum for them to be allowed to do that - they can do it regardless.

[Devnull.13]

Exactly. As it is, any action against any specific type of mod will damage the entire community 

[nightstalker101s]

Just now, Derb said:

Close, but not quite. Copyright law itself actually allows for this, because ideas aren't the copyrightable part of a work - the content is. I could develop my own game about little alien men building rockets, but that doesn't mean it infringes on Kerbal Space Program, unless I start using content from that game or replicate it to the degree that it is substantially similar. If I develop some mod parts, and T2 wants to make similar parts ... that's all good, unless they copy my designs exactly or near exactly. But I don't need to post the idea to the forum for them to be allowed to do that - they can do it regardless.

This is why "STEAL" is in quotes. I wasn't suggesting that it is being stolen. That is the term/concept seen over and over again in this topic. 

[Derb]

Just now, nightstalker101s said:

This is why "STEAL" is in quotes. I wasn't suggesting that it is being stolen. That is the term/concept seen over and over again in this topic. 

Oh no, I understood that. I just mean that it isn't posting it to the forum that allows them to make their own content based on your idea, it's the law that generally allows this, whether your idea is posted here or not.

[nightstalker101s]

Agreed. My point is that you are explicitly allowing them to use the material regardless of the content (idea, mod [not a link] , fan artwork) if you post it here. 

I really hope TT's stance or a definite legal answer is given by close of business this week. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by nightstalker101s

[Cheif Operations Director]

15 hours ago, nightstalker101s said:

I'm dying XD. I can't believe this is spiraling from who owns modded content and the legality of making mods under the new EULA to conspiracy theories that Take Two is stealing your information to sell it to an underground syndicate. Every game you have ever owned (especially online games) has this same or almost identical EULA. 

I have heard that wearing tinfoil on your head and placing red tape over your windows will filter out mind controlling aliens powers and government spy organizations ability to watch you or steal your world changing ideas. 

 

14 hours ago, nightstalker101s said:

I guess I'll say a little more although I know it is a waste of my time. 

1. If I share a picture I own the rights to on the forum and one of the forum administrators shares its elsewhere then I have the right legally to take action. The EULA's purpose is to prevent these accidental actions of its employees from leading to a lawsuit.

2. If you have an awesome mod that makes the game more functional and you post a link to the content with a decription, Take Two cannot steal your mod or code. Please note that this is if you shared a link to another site. If you posted the content directly to their site then they again have rights to it.  What they can do because you have explained its purpose is to recreate the content themselves. The other site is out of their reach. They then don't have to credit you and most likely won't credit you as they have recreated it. You have given them the right to "STEAL" your idea by posting it to the forum. Which again is to protect the company from being sued or having other legal action taken. 

3. The EULA is written in a way to protect the company. Not to steal your identity and blackmail you into sending them nudes. 

 

[snip] I'm concerned about an 

A. Hacker breaching a big fat target such as Take Two 

B. Declining Take Two selling information out of desperation. 

No I know Take Two is growing but tons of companies do shady things in desperate times even if they are upstanding companies otherwise. I understand why the EULA was written ok? That being said It seems pretty shady and not clear on when they can take it. They say "online services" KSP is single player so... why even change the EULA. I understand right now is on the up and up but a hacker (obviously) isn't and if Take Two should ever get desperate down the line... It's not a conspiracy theory it happens I'm just a concerned Player!

[snip]

Edited March 13, 2018 by Vanamonde

[The Beaver]

I'm just worried how this will affect mod makers and whether we'll see as many and as varied mods in the future.  I dabbled a bit myself.  Will it affect old mods or only things made from now on or not at all?  Sorry if this was discussed in the previous 28 pages going back to read now.

[edit] woke up this morning and apparently got to page 4 before I fell asleep lol...  read the last page today, interesting.  They really need to do something tho, looks really bad with all the negative reviews today on steam the day the expansion goes on sale...  Surprised no one from Take Two has come to say hi on this forum after months.

Edited March 13, 2018 by The Beaver
went back and read

[Cheif Operations Director]

On 3/12/2018 at 1:42 AM, artwhaley said:

 

I DID read enough to gather that this is YOUR concern.   My point was...  your identifying data is so completely available to anyone that wants it.  Who, exactly, do you imagine is going to buy a list of people who play KSP and do something insidious with it?   

Getting all of our identities legit stolen would be a gigantic disaster for Take Two and would still expose them to criminal and civil liability.  So they're not going to risk that exposure.  Are they going to some day sell a list of our identities and whatever they know about our purchase habits to someone else that wants to sell us something that they think we might be a good fit for?   Quite probably.  But if you don't think those people could have also gotten your contact info and shopping habits from a couple of dozen other sources...  you're nuts.   Do you trust Facebook more than Take Two?   Amazon?  Google? 

But.... given this concern...   my question is...  why are you still here?   Uninstall the game and delete your forum account to limit your exposure.   If that's your real concern, address it.   It's kind of you to martyr your personal security to try to save all of us.... but your point's made.    Save yourself!   Unless... the point of all of this is less 'I'm legit worried' and more "I wonder how much I can stir up?" 

it exposes them to no liability. The EULA says they can share it with who they want and that we accept a risk to our data with even if they take it without my direct consent.

How do you know what games I play? Besides the point if you were not talking to me my apologies. That being said if you were talking to me my point still stands. I've read many EULAs this is one of the most nosy ones I've ever seen. They want so much info especially for this game.

Edited March 13, 2018 by softweir
Removed quote to hidden post.

[Starman4308]

14 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

it exposes them to no liability. The EULA says they can share it with who they want and that we accept a risk to our data

That's the point of an EULA. It exposes them to no liability. If they choose to use a 3'rd party company to store their customer data because it's cheaper than hiring in-house data security experts? They don't want to get sued because they transferred the data to a third party. If police knock on their door with a warrant? They don't want to get sued for releasing that data for a legal search warrant. In the event that there is a data breach? They want to not have to pay each customer more than what they originally paid from the lawsuit.

Furthermore, people have seen no evidence of untowards data collection. Given the relative tech-savviness of the KSP player base, such uncalled-for data collection would likely be noticed very quickly, resulting in an absolute PR firestorm and a serious legal challenge to their EULA.

[Cheif Operations Director]

1 minute ago, Starman4308 said:

That's the point of an EULA. It exposes them to no liability. If they choose to use a 3'rd party company to store their customer data because it's cheaper than hiring in-house data security experts? They don't want to get sued because they transferred the data to a third party. If police knock on their door with a warrant? They don't want to get sued for releasing that data for a legal search warrant. In the event that there is a data breach? They want to not have to pay each customer more than what they originally paid from the lawsuit.

Furthermore, people have seen no evidence of untowards data collection. Given the relative tech-savviness of the KSP player base, such uncalled-for data collection would likely be noticed very quickly, resulting in an absolute PR firestorm and a serious legal challenge to their EULA.

Ok I have a honest question, I'm hearing this a lot "They will be open to legal challenges" how would they if it said by agreeing we cant be sued in the EULA. I mean you could sue but its like suing the roman republic for atrocities in 26 B.C. is dumb and not going to work. I'm asking honestly. What legal statutes would they be violating? (U.S.) 

Directed to everyone:

 

Anyone have any actual evidence legally speaking showing how after the EULA they are still open to legal jeopardy.

[badfrogg]

hey guys, Let me just get this straight. You have to agree to the terms in order to play the game, right? Its not like you can just play 1.3 forever under the original agreement so... I just click "agree" just like the 10,000 other things that I agreed to without reading what I was agreeing to, and go about living my life in blissful ignorance. Does that sound about right???

[Starman4308]

[snip]

If Take Two decides that that clause means they can install spyware, and they're caught at it, a judge may decide in the ensuing lawsuit (and if nobody else does, I will sue!) that that part of the EULA, at least as applied to external data harvesting, is legal fiction, and what Take Two had done was not exercise their EULA, but rather engage in millions of acts of identity theft.

Take Two does not want that scenario to occur.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Vanamonde