KSP and DirectX 12 Ultimate

[Vegatoxi]

So. NVIDIA announced DX12 Ultimate and a bunch of features which will(probably) significant improve the image and performance.

Will KSP 1/2 have it or not?

[DeltaDizzy]

KSP 1 almost certainly won't, KSP 2 won't at launch and might never have it. It all depends on if Unity supports it and if the gains are worth the changes needed.

[ExtremeSquared]

I wonder if there's much benefit in general to putting effort into supporting platform-locked libraries in a cross-platform product.

[steve_v]

3 hours ago, Vegatoxi said:

Will KSP 1/2 have it or not?

Hopefully not. I prefer my games with less manufacturer-specific gimmick and more generally useful development.

DirectX 12 Ultimate is confined not only to Windows machines with Nvidia GPUs, but also to specific models of Nvidia GPUs. It's useless on consoles, on non-windows platforms, and for anyone with a GPU that isn't an Nvidia RTX.
Putting a bunch of work into API extensions that are only useful to the subset of customers running certain specific models of GPU doesn't strike me as a particularly wise use of resources, and I expect KSP2 would be better off supporting a cross-platform manufacturer-agnostic API like vulkan.

 

[Incarnation of Chaos]

2 hours ago, steve_v said:

Hopefully not. I prefer my games with less manufacturer-specific gimmick and more generally useful development.

DirectX 12 Ultimate is confined not only to Windows machines with Nvidia GPUs, but also to specific models of Nvidia GPUs. It's useless on consoles, on non-windows platforms, and for anyone with a GPU that isn't an Nvidia RTX.
Putting a bunch of work into API extensions that are only useful to the subset of customers running certain specific models of GPU doesn't strike me as a particularly wise use of resources, and I expect KSP2 would be better off supporting a cross-platform manufacturer-agnostic API like vulkan.

 

DX12 Ultimate is also just a set of extensions to DX12, so it's more like a DX X.1 than a new version. The entire reasoning is so vendors can distinguish between GPU's that support the full DX12 feature set and those that support the "Original" DX12 implementation.

So really it isn't about the games, it's a hardware specification with a software back-end. For the rest; that'll all change come this holiday season. The "Next-gen" of consoles are going to have some form of Hardware-Accelerated Ray-Tracing, and are confirmed to use AMD GPU's. So Microsoft's box will have DX12 Ultimate running on RDNA 2.0 GPU's at least by then; if not before.

But the overall point of your statement i agree with; at least for me it seems that Ray-Tracing is still several generations of GPU's and games from being a desired feature. And currently it's nothing more than an expensive way to halve your framerate and get better reflections, and i honestly don't see it becoming viable unless Vulkan Implicit/DX12 Implicit display modes are implemented by developers to use multiple GPU's to handle the overhead in the interim.

But KSP2 will likely still be on whatever DX version Unity shipped with back when they started development, and i have a sneaking suspicion they're going to leave all of the Linux people out in the cold. I'd be ecstatic if they made a version on Vulkan, but right now it seems that they're targeting Windows PC's exclusively even forgoing consoles.

With the recent shift of developers, and the uncertainty that brings this is all subject to change however.

[steve_v]

58 minutes ago, Incarnation of Chaos said:

i have a sneaking suspicion they're going to leave all of the Linux people out in the cold.

I've been firmly in the "no tux, no bux" camp for several years now, so if there's no GNU/Linux native version my interest in the product is effectively zero.

 

58 minutes ago, Incarnation of Chaos said:

I'd be ecstatic if they made a version on Vulkan, but right now it seems that they're targeting Windows PC's exclusively even forgoing consoles.

I don't really see how a Vulkan renderer and being Windows exclusive are in any way mutually incompatible. Vulkan works just as well on Windows as it does on any other platform.

 

58 minutes ago, Incarnation of Chaos said:

With the recent shift of developers, and the uncertainty that brings this is all subject to change however.

Indeed. That said I'm far more concerned about the publisher than the developer, Take Two isn't well known for anything except screwing every possible cent out of their customers.

Edited March 27, 2020 by steve_v

[Incarnation of Chaos]

2 hours ago, steve_v said:

I've been firmly in the "no tux, no bux" camp for several years now, so if there's no GNU/Linux native version my interest in the product is effectively zero.

 

I don't really see how a Vulkan renderer and being Windows exclusive are in any way mutually incompatible. Vulkan works just as well on Windows as it does on any other platform.

 

Indeed. That said I'm far more concerned about the publisher than the developer, Take Two isn't well known for anything except screwing every possible cent out of their customers.

They're not; i actually own several games that have DX12 && Vulkan Support. I was more saying that i think any potential Vulkan version would come after development of the DX12/Windows version, and would likely be significantly delayed.

I actually prefer Vulkan myself even though i'm on Windows; DX just never manages to get as much out of my Vega 56's as Vulkan does. Makes sense though since it was built from signifigant portions of Mantle; which was AMD's attempt to make an API that was more compute oriented to leverage the features of GCN more effectively......they were almost 6 years too soon it seems...

And yeah; iv'e seen you express that sentiment before. And i think anyone with even a vague following of the Games Industry has their hairs stand up when Take Two is mentioned.

[steve_v]

7 hours ago, Incarnation of Chaos said:

DX12/Windows version

Why not Vulkan/Windows version? I own several games that have no DX renderer whatsoever, and they run just fine on Windows. X4 for example is Vulkan only, no matter the platform, and I don't see anyone bemoaning the lack of DirectX support.
Why develop with a platform-locked API at all, when there are perfectly good alternatives?

You're saying Windows first, I get it. My point is why DX12 first.

Edited March 27, 2020 by steve_v

[MechBFP]

3 hours ago, steve_v said:

Why develop with a platform-locked API at all, when there are perfectly good alternatives?

Wow, the definition of perfectly must have changed recently.

[steve_v]

13 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

the definition of perfectly must have changed recently

If you have some compelling argument as to the unsuitability of vulkan, why not go ahead and state it rather than responding with content-free snark?

[Incarnation of Chaos]

9 hours ago, steve_v said:

Why not Vulkan/Windows version? I own several games that have no DX renderer whatsoever, and they run just fine on Windows. X4 for example is Vulkan only, no matter the platform, and I don't see anyone bemoaning the lack of DirectX support.
Why develop with a platform-locked API at all, when there are perfectly good alternatives?

You're saying Windows first, I get it. My point is why DX12 first.

Unity ships with DX out of the box; Vulkan is there but requires additional work from the developer to integrate. 

More developers are also experienced in DX, and that's a factor that can't be ignored.

So I don't disagree with you; in a perfect world everything would be developed on Vulkan.

But considering the fact that KSP2 likely began development around 2 years ago, and with a small-ish studio at that I can see them deciding to focus on building out the important systems they knew were important instead of wrestling with unfamiliar APIs. 

That's what I'm saying; the barrier to entry for Vulkan is just enough more that I don't think it was even considered for KSP2, and honestly it's not even that likely KSP2 is on DX12. I'm going to be shocked if it's not a DX 11.1 game, but not because I would like that.

Add on top that the development has been shuffled around, and it's almost completely off the table for the foreseeable future.

Now if they decide to build on DX12 instead of Vulkan 6 months from release? Then yeah; that's some garbage.

[steve_v]

7 minutes ago, Incarnation of Chaos said:

That's what I'm saying; the barrier to entry for Vulkan is just enough more that I don't think it was even considered for KSP2, and honestly it's not even that likely KSP2 is on DX12.

Fair enough. I'd be annoyed if this was a bespoke engine early in development and they went with DXwhatever over Vulkan, but if Unity's Vulkan support requires a bunch of extra work to actually use you're probably right.

It's likely too late in development for KSP2 to get vulkan or "DX12 ultimate" (pretty lame name btw nvidia), if it happens at all now it'll be long after release.

Edited March 27, 2020 by steve_v

[Incarnation of Chaos]

4 minutes ago, steve_v said:

Fair enough. I'd be annoyed if this was a bespoke engine early in development and they went with DXwhatever over Vulkan, but if Unity's Vulkan support requires a bunch of extra work to actually use you're probably right.

It's likely too late in development for KSP2 to get vulkan or "DX12 ultimate" (pretty lame name btw nvidia), if it happens at all now it'll be long after release.

From what I've seen it's not too bad, but it's the lack of people who are familiar with it that's the main issue. Chicken and egg...

Also yeah I wish they'd call it DX12.1; because that's what it really is xD

[R-T-B]

I have doubts KSP will have DX12 renderer really (unless they said otherwise).  Graphics is not it's bottleneck, and DX11 is just is capable apearance wise as bog-standard DX12.

 

BTW DX12 Ultimate is a MIcrosoft standard, not NVIDIA.  It's most signifigant addition is a non-vendor-lockedrealtime raytracing API requiring some sort of hardware acceleration, something KSP2 could use, but most likely won't IMO.  The amount of gamers with RTRT cards is like 5% at most.

PS: I was a tech journalist for a large portion of my career, so I might know a bit about this.

Edited March 28, 2020 by R-T-B

[steve_v]

32 minutes ago, R-T-B said:

Graphics is not it's bottleneck, and DX11 is just is capable apearance wise as bog-standard DX12.

TBH I don't care overmuch about graphical fidelity anyway, especially not in a game like KSP. I'd much prefer time and effort went into engaging gameplay over fancy shadows. DX11 is fine. Hell, OpenGL is fine.
I still play Doom II and Descent, the graphics don't bother me, because the games are fun. My only concern WRT graphics APIs in KSP is their contribution to that nasty CPU bottleneck.
 

31 minutes ago, R-T-B said:

BTW DX12 Ultimate is a MIcrosoft standard, not NVIDIA.

Interesting, though not particularly surprising. The name is still stupid.

 

38 minutes ago, R-T-B said:

non-vendor-lockedrealtime raytracing API

Non-vendor-locked is nice, absolutely-os-locked is not.
 

29 minutes ago, R-T-B said:

The amount of gamers with RTRT cards is like 5% at most.

My point exactly, though I'll admit I don't follow such things closely enough to pin a number on it.

 

27 minutes ago, R-T-B said:

I was a tech journalist for a large portion of my career, so I might know a bit about this.

You might, and you probably do... But for the record I've met more than one "tech journalist" who didn't really know much of anything beyond the marketing hype he'd sucked up. Not saying it was you, not at all.. but I kinda have to put it out there.

[R-T-B]

22 minutes ago, steve_v said:

You might, and you probably do... But for the record I've met more than one "tech journalist" who didn't really know much of anything beyond the marketing hype he'd sucked up. Not saying it was you, not at all.. but I kinda have to put it out there.

Well, you and me both, sadly.

Why do you think I'm not a tech journalist anymore... lol.  Story for another day.  My point is I follow this stuff.

And I am in complete agreement re os-locked APIs, and gameplay over graphics.

Edited March 28, 2020 by R-T-B

[ExtremeSquared]

21 hours ago, steve_v said:

..for the record I've met more than one "tech journalist" who didn't really know much of anything beyond the marketing hype he'd sucked up. Not saying it was you, not at all.. but I kinda have to put it out there.

Not to go off on a tangent, but there's a VTC/VoIP article on the BBC News front page today that was so flagrantly wrong I un-bookmarked BBC News.