Do you think I could get an Arduino into orbit?

[nhnifong]

I want to have my own satellite camera one day. Maybe that is a ridiculous pie-in-the-sky sort of dream, but it might not be that hard.

How much do you think it could cost to get a few grams in orbit? Just a camera, microcontroller, antenna, and collapsible foil sail?

Is there some lower limit on $ per kilogram to LEO?

could I do it with a baloon and a model rocket?

[UmbralRaptor]

You could get nice pics from "edge of space" (25+ km) with an appropriate balloon. Anything resembling a conventional model rocket motor is far too short on Isp to usefully get into orbit. In there near term, trying to get costs below $1000/kg is optimistic. (And in fact, $/kg are often higher for smaller rockets.)

[whatisthisidonteven]

Is placing objects in orbit even legal?

Anyway, getting to LEO requires about 9km/s of dV iirc.

Edited October 4, 2012 by whatisthisidonteven

[UmbralRaptor]

nhnifong would need to get a permit from the FAA because of airspace issues. I suspect that "hitch-hiking" on a normal rocket with a cube sat would be the easiest path?

[nhnifong]

With something that small, I don't think anyone would notice. besides, if they shoot it down, I don't even mind. I'm trying to keep it cheap, I can't go wasting money on permits. (this is more of the theoretical discussion anyways, but thank you for informing me)

As for the $/kg being higher for small rockets, is that because of the dry mass not scaling linearly?

If you extrapolate, what does it cost to put 0 kg into orbit?, surely not $0

Edited October 4, 2012 by nhnifong

[PsychoLucario]

Have you looked at cubesats or eggsats, which piggyback large satalites into orbit because rockets always have a safety margain in launches and carry some extra fuel so another kilo is actually cheap to throw up there

(Cube says have very specific specifications)

[Ydoow]

They would notice before it broke the atmosphere.

'they' being every nation on the planet thinking another nation is launching a small trans-continental missile.

[phoenix_ca]

The issue is one of safety, nhnifong. It's not that anyone is going to shoot-down your rocket, it's that your rocket could run itself through the structure of an airplane and seriously damage/destroy it. There's enough air traffic over the continental USA that it's not all that an unlikely scenario. The key is avoiding flight paths, and that's where FAA assistance is useful.

There are also very, very hefty fines for just shooting something that high without informing anyone.

[spl1nt]

yeah .. definitely seek faa approval due to airspace issues and from what i can gather .. u want a sail to solar power your payload??

that might be harder but this could be interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtXquYhY7wo

at least the faa seem to want to help .. rather than flat out say no and have u try it anyway lol

maybe a combination?? a balloon to get to 100k feet and then drop a rocket to launch ... i dare say you will need to find out more about legalities and international procedures with things in orbit ... i remember hearing that norad tracked everything in orbit bigger than a piece of chalk?? anyone know if thats true?

Edited October 4, 2012 by spl1nt

[phoenix_ca]

Every nation with a vested interest in space travel does its best to track everything up there. That's because collisions are a very real issue. The motivation isn't to prevent people from putting things in orbit, it's to prevent their own things from smashing into other things and being destroyed. (Such information is particularly useful for the ISS.)

And yes, they can track very small things.

[Nibb31]

You can get a cubesat into orbit for something like $50.000. These piggyback on commercial launch vehicles. They are still expensive for an individual, but as a research project for a university, it starts to be affordable.

If you don't need to go to orbit, you can go for a PongSat, which goes up on a high altitude balloon:

http://www.space.com/17589-pongsat-ping-pong-balls-space-balloon.html

Edited October 4, 2012 by Nibb31

[LukeTim]

An Arduino isn't going to last very long in orbit, dude. The extreme temperatures coupled with the huge amounts of radiation would kill that thing in no time... same with the camera. Well, especially with the camera at least with the MCU you can stick it in a Lead Box.

You would need to look at more expensive, very high quality (probably designed specifically for applications in space) devices.

[Tauge]

When I was in college, in 2007-2008, I was part of a student design team that was working on a hybrid powered sounding rocket. For those that don't know, a sounding rocket is a rocket capable of reaching a minimum of 100km, which is considered the edge of space. We worked on it, part time, for two years, and had spent somewhere between $5000 and $10000 USD. We were close to finalizing the design (no construction at that point) and flight computer (but had done a couple of engine tests), when the crash came and the money dried up. I heard rumors that getting launch permission at Wallops Island would have been...out of budget, and launching at KSC would have been impossible (we would have been allowed to launch for more than at Wallops, but we also were required to redesign the rocket to make it roll at a certain rate for safety purposes). The reason we went hybrid is because liquid fuel is expensive, and solid fuel, after 9/11, is considered bomb making material and must be registered and stored with certified authorities. We also would have had to allow the Air Force, in either scenario, to perform the range safety (if the rocket goes off course...boom).

Basically, what I'm getting at, is that if it were easy, heck if it were even just hard, to get to space, everyone would be doing it. We were trying to be the first College group in the country to reach space, something that not even Embry-Riddle has been able to do (and they have obscene amounts of money and experienced professional engineers helping them), and we failed, and we weren't even trying to reach orbit.

I'm not saying give up on the dream, I'm just letting you know that this is a dream that should not be taken lightly.

[Aescwulf]

I want to have my own satellite camera one day. Maybe that is a ridiculous pie-in-the-sky sort of dream, but it might not be that hard.

How much do you think it could cost to get a few grams in orbit? Just a camera, microcontroller, antenna, and collapsible foil sail?

Is there some lower limit on $ per kilogram to LEO?

could I do it with a baloon and a model rocket?

I was thinking about this today and I wanted to do something like this but to get something to piggyback on someone's payload of a rocket is still highly expensive for the average joe.

I was thinking about getting into model rocketry ( there's no laws on it here apart from if it lands on someone then you pay the price ) and sticking a special camera in it to record to see what it's like to go towards space.

[Person012345]

As for the $/kg being higher for small rockets, is that because of the dry mass not scaling linearly?

If you extrapolate, what does it cost to put 0 kg into orbit?, surely not $0

I imagine that it's the same as in KSP - because the weight increases with rocket size you need exponentially more fuel to do anything as the rocket gets bigger.

And yes it would. I have 0kg in orbit right now. I think most people here have put nothing into orbit. And it didn't cost them a penny.

Anyway, wiki tells me:

The speed needed to achieve a stable low earth orbit is about 7.8 km/s, but reduces with altitude. The delta-v needed to achieve low earth orbit starts around 9.4km/s. Atmospheric and gravity drag associated with launch typically adds 1.5–2.0 km/s to the delta-v launch vehicle required to reach normal LEO orbital velocity of around 7.8 km/s (28,080 km/h).

If you think you can build something that can achieve that, then great.

I suppose you could wait until they build a space elevator then throw it off the side. >.>

[TouhouTorpedo]

I want to have my own satellite camera one day. Maybe that is a ridiculous pie-in-the-sky sort of dream, but it might not be that hard.

How much do you think it could cost to get a few grams in orbit? Just a camera, microcontroller, antenna, and collapsible foil sail?

Is there some lower limit on $ per kilogram to LEO?

could I do it with a baloon and a model rocket?

You sound like you would be very interested in the N-prize Which I'm very interested in as well. Sadly, entries are now closed, but I'm looking into things on this.

Balloons I've had a breif look at but to be honest they aren't worth the hastle. Each kg of lift you want to 30km is going to cost £100 UK of helium. (dont know US price) and once up you need the orbital speed, which is going to take another 7.7 km/s of deltaV. so you have to launch a hell of a lot of fuel on that balloon, which is going to need the helium. All in all a ground launch ends up much more economically viable for that reason than a rockoon. (rocket and balloon combo)

the biggest focus is affordable construction and navigation systems which will either cost you a lot of time, or a lot of money, or both, and a couple of failures I'm sure.

On the temperature side LukeTim is right, the temperature variations will kill an unprotected Arduino. Though wrapping it in foil and glueing a thin copper wire for a heating element with a thermistor on top to get live temperature and control with the Arduino would probably be sufficent.

Space Junk and collisions isn't a big concern. A small satellite has a high area ratio and de-orbits fairly quickly in LEO.

I'm not planning to discourage you though. I love that you're into this as I've got the same sort of ideas. Go for it if its what you want to do!

[cowo8]

it depends what you mean by orbit, as in just into the far atmosphere and entering space, or literally orbiting around earth?

[pwnedbyscope]

yeah .. definitely seek faa approval due to airspace issues and from what i can gather .. u want a sail to solar power your payload??

i dare say you will need to find out more about legalities and international procedures with things in orbit ... i remember hearing that norad tracked everything in orbit bigger than a piece of chalk?? anyone know if thats true?

the legalities only go so far as where you launch it from, and you "could" say where it would end up (assuming you dont achieve a geo-sync orbit) but as far as actually putting something into space no-one can tell you no, space is international, err non? national, meaning there is no single body that has jurisdiction prosecute if you were to put something up there, kinda like Antarctica

Edit: now as far as getting it there, i would recommend waiting a few more years, with more and more private companies that are developing public space services I'd say within the next about 5-7 years youd be able to put a couple kg package into space for less then 500 usd, getting it into "orbit" may be a bit harder if whatever service you use to get it there dosent do it

Edited October 5, 2012 by pwnedbyscope

[nhnifong]

When I was in college, in 2007-2008, I was part of a student design team that was working on a hybrid powered sounding rocket. For those that don't know, a sounding rocket is a rocket capable of reaching a minimum of 100km, which is considered the edge of space. We worked on it, part time, for two years, and had spent somewhere between $5000 and $10000 USD. We were close to finalizing the design (no construction at that point) and flight computer (but had done a couple of engine tests), when the crash came and the money dried up. I heard rumors that getting launch permission at Wallops Island would have been...out of budget, and launching at KSC would have been impossible (we would have been allowed to launch for more than at Wallops, but we also were required to redesign the rocket to make it roll at a certain rate for safety purposes). The reason we went hybrid is because liquid fuel is expensive, and solid fuel, after 9/11, is considered bomb making material and must be registered and stored with certified authorities. We also would have had to allow the Air Force, in either scenario, to perform the range safety (if the rocket goes off course...boom).

Basically, what I'm getting at, is that if it were easy, heck if it were even just hard, to get to space, everyone would be doing it. We were trying to be the first College group in the country to reach space, something that not even Embry-Riddle has been able to do (and they have obscene amounts of money and experienced professional engineers helping them), and we failed, and we weren't even trying to reach orbit.

I'm not saying give up on the dream, I'm just letting you know that this is a dream that should not be taken lightly.

Wow, thank you for sharing. I had no idea that so many organizations had to be involved. It sounds like they strangled your project to death with laws. Better do it in some other country next time.

[Mercur1c]

What if you made a launch rig attached to high altitude balloons, and launched off that?

[mino2187]

I honestly think It would be very doable. ive seen articals of hobbiest launching rockets in az on a J hobby engine up to 25,000 feet and i know you can buy larger hobby grade engines. These rockets reach a few times faster then the sound barrier easy and if kerbal physics is accurate once you get so far up gaining speed gets alot easier.

[Whptheenah]

There is so much junk floating around in outer space (hats, cameras, gloves, even toolboxes), I'm not sure that the government are going to really notice a tiny camera. They'll track it, but unless they realize it is a camera, they'll have no motives to shoot it down. However, if a government thinks it is a spy camera, it could start a war.

[TouhouTorpedo]

What if you made a launch rig attached to high altitude balloons, and launched off that?

See my post.

This "Balloon launch rig" also known as a Rockoon by its proper name, is a popular idea ammoung amauter rocketeers as a way to get a rocket into space. However for anything but suborbital flight, they are absolutely terrible. Frought with stability problems and extremely expensive per kg lifted. And if you want orbit with that rocket hanging under, thats a lot of kilograms. Then add in a big complex stabiliser to hold your big rocket, and it gets lidicrous real fast, to the point that a ground or sea launch is just the best idea.

[Spektyr]

There is so much junk floating around in outer space (hats, cameras, gloves, even toolboxes), I'm not sure that the government are going to really notice a tiny camera. They'll track it, but unless they realize it is a camera, they'll have no motives to shoot it down. However, if a government thinks it is a spy camera, it could start a war.

That's hilarious.

Perhaps some Banana Republic might mistake a civilian camera connected to an Arduino for a spy satellite, but then again anyone that stupid isn't going to have the means to shoot down something in orbit. Only a complete moron would mistake anything but a spy satellite for a spy satellite. The hardware necessary to get useful photographs of the ground from orbit is not all that small, and it's certainly not cheap. Meaning you're not going to shell out more than the cost of a luxury car just for the optics to take pictures clear enough to tell the difference between a school bus and a house without also launching all the many accessories that camera will need to keep functioning in orbit long enough to be worth the expense of the camera itself and putting it into orbit. We're talking radiation shielding, power source(s), some basic maneuvering system (it's no good if you can't aim it where you want to see) and of course the ability to communicate down to the ground in some meaningful way.

THAT isn't something any credible government would get confused with a GoPro duct-taped to an Arduino.

As far as a launch hitting an airplane... that's a bit laughable as well. Yes, it could happen if you're not coordinating with the FAA, and of course that's why you're not supposed to just launch things into the air at significant velocity or to any real altitude without clearance. But the odds of actually hitting a plane? Pretty remote. What are the odds of you walking outside blindfolded, pointing a finger into the sky, and then pulling off the blindfold to find you're pointing directly at a plane? You could conceivably check into flights coming into and out of the local airport(s) that day and look to see what the flight lanes in your area are. Planes don't simply "aim at a destination", they have prescribed lanes to fly in.

It's not the likelihood of it hitting a plane that's the issue. It's the possibility. Take firearms for example: it's illegal to shoot them into the air, not because it's particularly likely you'll hit something (on the way up or - of more concern - on the way down) but because it's POSSIBLE. Any rocket capable of putting anything into orbit (even just itself) is by definition going to be a LOT more dangerous arcing back to Earth on a failed launch than a 115 grain 9mm bullet.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why there's so much regulation about firing things into the air. The combination of mass and velocity creates deadly consequences if things don't go as planned. If all the very smart and very experienced rocket scientists at NASA can't boast a perfect track record it would be foolish to think a private citizen is going to have a flawless first launch.

Could you do it? Probably. If you're smart enough and have enough money, it's not actually that difficult to hurl things into orbit. Hell, North Korea can do it and their rockets suck more than Justin Bieber. Just keep in mind that they have a hell of a lot more money than you do, and a lot more rocket scientists, and they still blow crap up in ways they don't intend to on a regular basis. Most of what you send up is coming back down, and if you make any mistakes at all, it's probably going to come back down in a very unfriendly way for those who are unfortunate enough to be downrange.

[K^2]

You can get permission for a high power amateur rocketry launch, at least in the States. There is some paperwork involved, mostly in making sure the FAA can issue NOTAMs for the area, but it's very easy compared to the challenge of actually making the launch. So basically, if you can build an actual rocket, getting permission to launch it is the easy part.

As far as actually getting something into space, depends on what your definition of getting to space is. In 2004, CSXT managed to put an "amateur" launched rocket into space, reaching altitude of 116km. This is far from establishing orbit, however. No "amateur" launch has gotten even close. And here, "amateur" just means something that wasn't built for profit. It by no means represents the expertise of people involved.

So if you want to put something in orbit, you'll have to purchase room on one of the commercial satellite launches. As it has been pointed out, cubesat launches tend to be relatively affordable.