[0.21] Hooligan Labs - Airship, Submarines and More

[Hooligan Labs]

... This is what I did to get my measurements of Hecto; I eyeballed the exact shape to estimate the difference between it and a rectangular prism, but I don't think I'd be out by more than 30%.

Screen shots?

[SchroedingersHat]

Screen shots?

Not sure if you're asking for evidence, seeking further explanation or suggesting a method so I made an album. It includes measurements of the Hecto envelope.

Also all this talk of real airships meant I had to make one of these:

It still fits on the runway but it dwarfs everything else.

Rest of the album

Edited June 26, 2013 by SchroedingersHat

[KhaosCorp]

That's an awesome lookin blimp! How much does it lift? I'm guessing that's a true to physics airship so no crazy lifting eh?

[SchroedingersHat]

That's an awesome lookin blimp! How much does it lift? I'm guessing that's a true to physics airship so no crazy lifting eh?

It was meant to be the same size as the Hindenberg (hence crashing it into the control tower, also see the little specks on the side? Those are 1.25m engines), but I didn't successfully get KSP not to scale it by 1.25 so it should be a little smaller.

I had it set to a volume of 200,000m^3 (if I understand Hooligan Labs' plugin properly) which can lift about 190 Tonnes if filled with hydrogen. However the P-wings on the back weigh a phenominal amount at that scale so I cheated and stuffed some Hectos inside the main envelope in order to stop it from crashing early.

If there's sufficient interest I might fix the clipping, normal and texture issues with the model and actually post it as a part (I was fiddling with blender to figure out if I could do something else and saw the tool I was using made blimpish shapes from boxes). There are issues with using something that big though; even with edtools it's hard to navigate around it, and when you first place it you can't see it because you're inside.

Edited June 26, 2013 by SchroedingersHat

[KhaosCorp]

I WANT ONE!!

Maybe a little smaller, but being able to build inside it is brilliant. I wonder if that works on a hector...why have I not tried that.....

I think something like this in maybe some more manageable sizes is spot on for the 'realistic' airships.

[Hooligan Labs]

I was asking for a screenshot of you taking the measurements, so I can see how you came to your approximations.

That's a nice blimp! To balance it best, it should be separated in pieces so the buoyancy can be trimmed... Maybe not this many, but something like it.

Link to full size: http://longstreet.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83542d51e69e20168e7bcd3d3970c-pi

[SchroedingersHat]

I WANT ONE!!

Maybe a little smaller, but being able to build inside it is brilliant. I wonder if that works on a hector...why have I not tried that.....

I think something like this in maybe some more manageable sizes is spot on for the 'realistic' airships.

I meant I just clipped them together so one disappears. You can do it with many parts depending on the attach rules, but one usually tends to avoid it where it doesn't make sense. I guess I could do internal geometry on a blimp and put attach nodes and stuff on the inside, it'd be pretty neat and also solve the balancing issues (things with a single envelope get awful tippy, but if there was a separate frame and bags it'd work, they could even inflate. I'm still fairly new to 3d modelling though (that's the second item I actually put into the game to do something with) so maybe after two or three other things.

A little smaller may be in order. To give you an idea of what it takes to lift 200 Tonnes here it is up next to a Hecto and a Kerbal X (I think I got it scaled correctly this time).

http://imgur.com/ZkhG0pK

http://i.imgur.com/IRfCKmj.png

I was asking for a screenshot of you taking the measurements, so I can see how you came to your approximations.

Click on the linked album. It has one kerbal measuring the Hecto while the others are off joy riding.

That's a nice blimp! To balance it best, it should be separated in pieces so the buoyancy can be trimmed... Maybe not this many, but something like it.

So I realized, hence the stuffing of some Hectos into the inside.

If I do get around to making a more detailed model and maybe some internal gas bags (will involve some complicated shenanigans with colliders, but shouldn't slow the game down as much as a composite craft of similar size) would you be interested in including it in the pack?

More importantly may I plagarize your textures in order to get similar look and feel (and also because I am uniformly terrible at texturing).?

Yeah, so I realized

Edited June 26, 2013 by SchroedingersHat

[Hooligan Labs]

I guess I could do internal geometry on a blimp and put attach nodes and stuff on the inside, it'd be pretty neat and also solve the balancing issues (things with a single envelope get awful tippy

I'm sure everyone wants to walk on a zepplin's interior catwalk, but why not do things easy?

My main concern is if people would be able to right click something on the interior, or even know it was there... Perhaps to have everything arranged (with action keys) and then provide it as a pre-build craft file. Then people could strap whatever they wanted on the bottom.

And yes, I see it's big. I have a ~1992 meter long runway in one of my other mods.

Click on the linked album. It has one kerbal measuring the Hecto while the others are off joy riding.

I totally did not realize that was there!

Buwahahaha!

If I do get around to making a more detailed model and maybe some internal gas bags (will involve some complicated shenanigans with colliders, but shouldn't slow the game down as much as a composite craft of similar size) would you be interested in including it in the pack?

More importantly may I plagarize your textures in order to get similar look and feel (and also because I am uniformly terrible at texturing).?

Yeah, so I realized

Everything I have made is completely free to use. I could certainly include it in my pack if I like it (I would never turn down free stuff), or you could post it yourself. I wouldn't worry too much with what is on the inside unless you plan on making it visible somehow.

You may want to take a look at the texture for the Ludo blimp if you are going for something authentic looking.

P.S. I will get around to a realism check soon.

[SchroedingersHat]

I just realised I have a multi purpose tool for dealing with 3d models, and your models are in dae format rather than .mu.

Mesh volume tool http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Extensions:2.6/Py/Scripts/Mesh/VolumeTools#Record_Split_Volume:

That's the model for Hecto. It seems like it works out with the in game measurements so multiply that number by 2.32^3 (scale in the cfg) to get 33200m^3 of volume.

Off for now, but if you don't have blender or time or some such, I can put together a set of configs which are fairly close to accurate some time later.

[KhaosCorp]

I was actually not thinking of catwalks inside blimps when I made the comment. I was thinking of being able to mount solar panels inside the envelopes, that way they are protected during travel in atmosphere. All my airships I actively use in my game have electric based propulsion, being able to leave a few panels open during flight would be a huge bonus.

[Kreuzung]

That's the model for Hecto. It seems like it works out with the in game measurements so multiply that number by 2.32^3 (scale in the cfg) to get 33200m^3 of volume.

WAIT NOOOOO!

The stupid scale line in the config only affects the attach nodes, you are looking for rescaleFactor, which isn't present in the configs and therefore set to it's default value of 1.25 (not 1 for historical reasons, up to .15 the standard part diameter was 1m, then they changed it to 1.25m when they added EVA Kerbals to get the proportions right, so existing parts were automatically rescaled).

Edit: After reading the last page, it seems like you already know that... then why did you multiply with scale?

Edited June 28, 2013 by Kreuzung

[Hooligan Labs]

Off for now, but if you don't have blender or time or some such, I can put together a set of configs which are fairly close to accurate some time later.

I wouldn't mind seeing your suggestions. I am tied up for now but I will get to it.

All my airships I actively use in my game have electric based propulsion, being able to leave a few panels open during flight would be a huge bonus.

Unfortunately, I think the balloon's collider would prevent KSP from recognizing that light has reached the internal solar panels.

I think someone would have to take that on as a project, and make it integral to the envelope itself.

WAIT NOOOOO!

Listen to Kreuzung, he usually know what he's talking about.

P.S. I posted some thoughts on putting a rather realistic mass driver in KSP. http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/38038-Shot-into-Space-Mass-Drivers-in-KSP

Edited June 28, 2013 by Hooligan Labs

[Montieth]

If you want the pinnacle of design and function, you want to model a rigid airship (not a blimp) after the USS Akron, ZRS-4. Capable enough to carry it's own compliment of fighter/scout planes.

[Hooligan Labs]

Wow. Not only could you take off from it, but the planes also landed back on the airship!

The closest I am aware of to that was when someone added the airship plugin to the carrier mod. Not realistic, but it looked straight out of Macross.

[SchroedingersHat]

WAIT NOOOOO!

The stupid scale line in the config only affects the attach nodes, you are looking for rescaleFactor, which isn't present in the configs and therefore set to it's default value of 1.25 (not 1 for historical reasons, up to .15 the standard part diameter was 1m, then they changed it to 1.25m when they added EVA Kerbals to get the proportions right, so existing parts were automatically rescaled).

Edit: After reading the last page, it seems like you already know that... then why did you multiply with scale?

This is what I thought, but I couldn't for the life of me reconcile the in-game measurements and a scale factor of 1.25.

It turns out I mixed up the measurements I wrote down and the location of the probe core. Apologies, I had a lot on my mind last night. Thanks for the correction.

2657*1.25^3 = 5190

[Montieth]

Wow. Not only could you take off from it, but the planes also landed back on the airship!

They'd even unmount the wheels from the aircraft to have less drag when operating away from land. Less drag and longer range.

[Hooligan Labs]

I just realised I have a multi purpose tool for dealing with 3d models, and your models are in dae format rather than .mu.

Fun fact, I've used Blender for years but this is my first time installing a script.

Here's what the Ray looks like in my Blender window...

I went through my models and got the following volumes (some are barely rounded to give the intended size)...

Envelope: 26.6

Hecto: 2660

Octo: 212.8

Una and Ray: 116.9

After scaling in Unity...

Una: 116.9

Ray: 935.2

Cirrus was particularly annoying because it seems that the volume tool does not take into account scaling by armature. So I had to calculate from Blender...

V = 3/4 * pi * radius1 * radius2 * radius3 = 3/4 * 3.14 * 8.7 * 8.7 * 21.5 = 3832.4

However, I had to scale it way down when I brought it into Unity to fit on top of something... .35 * .4 * .35 * 3832.4 = 187.7? That doesn't seem right!

As a sanity check, we can calculate the volume of an extruded ellipse to compare to the envelope...

V = pi * radius1 * radius2 * height = 3.14 * (3.75/2) * (2.5/2) * 4 = 29.4375.

Pretty close? So what is going on with the Cirrus?

[Hooligan Labs]

Just going to go with 8x volume for the Cirrus than the Ray.

Here are some pictures of the latest graphene / zinc / carbon nanotube mix, demonstrating its lightness.

This stuff can expand to about 10x its original volume, which is what I based the models on, so it's a good fit. Based on the article, a "cubic meter weighs just 160 grams" which is 0.00016 metric tons. In comparison, normal air weighs ~1200 grams per cubic meter, so it's extremely light! Thus, we have the new weights for the envelopes.

Envelope: Volume 26.6 (cubic meters), Mass 0.004256 (metric tons)

Hecto: 2660, 0.4256

Octo: 212.8, 0.034048

Una: 116.9, 0.018704

Ray: 935.2, 0.149632

Cirrus: 7481.6, 1.197056

I don't know what it would take to make this rigid, turn it into artificial muscle, seal it against vacuum, etc. I'll do some more research before updating. Goal is to have this done by next Wednesday before I'm flying out of state for 2.5 weeks.

[KhaosCorp]

What did you use to get that blender screen cap?

I started working on an envelope, but I just downloaded blender yesterday so its going kinda slow=)

Im am going to try and make an envelope and a truss platform. The idea is that the truss+envelope+hecto runway= sky carrier!

I think once I get the model I'm working on textured I can start figuring out unity.

No clue what Im doing here....just faking it =P

[taniwha]

Since it's static, it might be just windows' built-in screenshot feature (shift-printscreen?). For such shots in linux, I use "import" (part of imagemagick)

[Hooligan Labs]

What did you use to get that blender screen cap?

Yeah, like taniwha said it was just from the keyboard "Print Screen." You can paste straight from your keyboard into Imgur if you want.

But that screen layout is actually easy to switch to. At the top left where it says "Default" you can click it and change to "Animation". That has most everything you need for tweaking animations just right. If you go back to "Default" it reverts to normal.

I started working on an envelope, but I just downloaded blender yesterday so its going kinda slow=)

Im am going to try and make an envelope and a truss platform. The idea is that the truss+envelope+hecto runway= sky carrier!

I think once I get the model I'm working on textured I can start figuring out unity.

No clue what Im doing here....just faking it =P

I don't think that you will need to use Unity for an unanimated envelope, though Unity is really easy to use. Here are some instructions on importing straight from a .dae file: http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Making_an_asset_from_start_to_finish

[KhaosCorp]

That is good to know, I thought the colliders had to be done in unity.

As far as animations go.....long way off before I even attempt that =) I just figured out how to do UV map so I can texture.....

As much as I respected what modders did before, it really puts it into sharper perspective trying it yourself!

Thanks for the link, that will be huge help.....I'll post pics when I get a bit more done, so yall can have a good laugh lol.

edit: Actually that's not accurate info....I can only seem to UV map single prims, once I join them it wont unwrap the seam. But I suck at texturing so probly better this way for me anyway.

Edited July 1, 2013 by KhaosCorp

[pfpants]

Is there a way to display the inflatable balloons in their packed form in VAB? I'd like to tuck them away for easier visibility. I know some of the B9 parts (cargo bays) allow you to modify their state in the VAB by using the action groups tab, but this doesn't currently work with the balloons. Maybe something in the .cfg? Thanks.

[Hooligan Labs]

So, for the first time, I'm requesting beta testers for the next release! I have attempted to factor in more realism. I implemented the changes in sizes and weights. Also, I added an envelopeVolumeScale multiplier in the .cfg.

Currently set to 500, I think that provides about the same amount of lift as the envelopes had before. Set to 1, it should be exact for the size based on physics. It defaults to 500 for the included envelopes. Please also test all the envelopes at other values, including 1, and report back!

The download is here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qq6v306sx2zo8yc/HL_Airship_2_2_X.zip

I'm particularly unsure how legacy envelopes, like the Ludo Blimp, will work...

edit: Actually that's not accurate info....I can only seem to UV map single prims, once I join them it wont unwrap the seam.

Hm, I have not attempted to texture things and then join them. Usually I do not add textures until it is almost done. When you are doing the UV unwrap, are you doing box or something? I would think that would work after the rest is done.

Is there a way to display the inflatable balloons in their packed form in VAB? I'd like to tuck them away for easier visibility. I know some of the B9 parts (cargo bays) allow you to modify their state in the VAB by using the action groups tab, but this doesn't currently work with the balloons. Maybe something in the .cfg? Thanks.

Sorry, I do not plan on implementing that. Good idea though!

[KhaosCorp]

So 500 is lift value we are used to and 1 is true to physics lift? I will begin testing right away.

Also....

I found another tutorial page that is much better than the one i started with. I think my main issue before is I was doing all my selections for unwrapping in vert selection, so much easyer if you do it in face selection. I still cant seem to get a part to show in KSP strait from blender, my guess is im adding colliders wrong.