[0.22.X] BobCat ind. Historical spacecraft thread

[Netris]

Can someone fill me in on how to put stuff in the buran cargobay?

Put a decouple node or a docking port

[Normak]

Hi everyone, Cardboard and I were just discussing the ongoing scale issue and the differences between Kosmos and BobCat parts. While it's going to take some more discussion to figure out which pack should rescale and how much, one thing that we need to dispell here and now is the "64%" ideal that has been discussed recently. The logic for the 64% idea comes from the assumption that the Apollo capsule and the Mk1-2 from KSP are equivalent. Therefore if Apollo was 3.9m in diameter, it follows that the Mk1-2 would be 2.5, because 0.64*3.9=2.496

They aren't equivalent, and shouldn't be treated that way. The reason is because of the seating arrangement in Apollo. It isn't enough to say "they both seat three, so they're the same," because Apollo seats three men shoulder to shoulder, while the Mk1-2 seats the commander in front and two men overlapping and slightly behind him. Assuming that a man's shoulder-to-shoulder width is about 0.6 meters, this gives us a minimum of 1.8 meters by 1.75 meters space needed for this configuration. For simplicity, let's say it's a square of 1.8 by 1.8.

If you overlay a 1.8x1.8 square on a circle with diameter of 3.9, you'll find that you'll have a meter of space on each side of the square, allowing the astronauts freedom of movement inside the capsule. If Kerbals were human-shaped, this configuration would result in over half of a meter of space on all sides. (In reality though, the passengers aren't sitting at the base of the cone, which means we would have a little less space in every direction, but still totally livable.)

Unfortunately, Kerbals aren't human shaped. Their heads, as Bobcat showed in his overlay on the previous page, are beyond shoulder-width without their helmets. With helmets on, Kerbals have a width of 50% of their height, meaning if humans shared these propotions, three shoulder to shoulder would be 0.9mx3, or 2.7 meters.

What makes this especially difficult is that, unlike humans, who have their widest section in their torso, Kerbals are widest at eye-level. If you want to place your Kerbals so that they can see the instrumentation, this means that their eye level needs to be above the bisector of the cone cross-section. The higher above the bisector you go, the more rapidly lateral headspace decreases. This means that the radius of the the entire craft needs to increase the further away from center the Kerbals' eyes are.

Imagine you have a circle, and then draw a line from left to right through the center. Now draw a 45 degree angle in quadrant I. The trigonometric unit circle denotes that the point this angle will hit on a circle is ((sqrt2/2),(sqrt2/2)). The quantity of the square root of 2 all over two is about 0.7. On a unit circle, the radius is always 1. The length of a chord parallel to the diameter that intersects this point will therefore be almost exactly 70% the length of the diameter, every time.

If I just lost you there, what I'm trying to say is that if we place the Kerbals in a seating position similar to the way a human would sit, with the torso at the center of the craft, the diameter of that craft will need to be 1.4 times the amount of required lateral head room. This means that the width we found earlier of 2.7 meters would be that eye-level width, whereas the diameter would be 3.78. Accounting for these dimensions takes 96% of the original craft width. If we want the interior of the craft to be as roomy as it was for the Apollo astronauts, we would need to increase the diameter to 5.78m.

So where are we now? If a Kerbal is, as they say, 1m tall, we know that he will also be 0.5m wide with his helmet. A meter's worth of space at the hip of a human would be equivalent to 0.6 meters of space at the hip of a kerbal, meaning that our KSP Apollo would be 3(0.5)+2(0.3), or 2.1m diameter. This doesn't disprove the viability of the 64% rescale because it's 2 dimensional. We have a circle here, whereas we need to start talking about cones.

The Apollo capsule was 3.2 meters tall, so the ratio between height and width is 3.2(x)=3.4. X therefore equals 1.0625; to get the height of the KSP Apollo we would use y(1.0625)=2.1. This gives us a height of 1.97 or so. Do we have a cone 2 meters tall, then? No, because the Kerbals sit inside the cone, not flat against the bottom. This height covers a cone that reaches a ring centered midway across their bodies in profile. To get the rest, we need over another quarter meter of height, preferably half a meter to include the seats and such. So instead, we have 2.5(1.0625)=Z. Z is 2.65625.

TL;DR? It is impossible to build an Apollo at proper specification using the 64% scale. At a bare minimum, we need almost 70%. To be comfortable, I recommend 75-80%. In the end, it really comes down to what Dragon was saying:

I'm not advocating scaling them as they're IRL, I'm advocating scaling them to what works best.

[kerry519]

Is anyone else getting a weird problem with the MIR trying to rip itself apart when switched to?

[ShroomOfDoom]

Is anyone else getting a weird problem with the MIR trying to rip itself apart when switched to?

Happened to me a while ago when switching ships in-game. Only way to avoid it, is to increase gamespeed to x5 or x10 for a second or two,that stops the wobble.

[comham]

snip

Just scale them to match other modders parts/existing standards. Ingame meters are totally arbitrary (it's not like we're bringing aboard a framed picasso and we'll be disappointed if there isn't enough wall space for it), and IVA size is unrelated to actual part size.

I appreciate your passion but KSP is not a game for rivet counting, and without a doubt the most frustrating thing about piecemeal modding (ie not Total Conversion modding) is when you have two lovely mods that don't play well together.

[dimovski]

I just tried firing up the Lunokhod from space port...I can deploy panels and deploy Lunokhod, but moving is impossible...Any help?

[Nibb31]

It uses IJKL.

[Canopus]

I just tried firing up the Lunokhod from space port...I can deploy panels and deploy Lunokhod, but moving is impossible...Any help?

It still needs the Rover Plugin.

[dimovski]

you mean Clever Bob Cat?Yes,I added it.(It should work in atmosphere,shouldnt it?)

oh,IJKL,yeh Im such a moron...now if it would refresh,so that I know when the handbrake is on and when not,that would be awesome...

Edited April 27, 2013 by dimovski

[XNerd_Bomber]

I can't launch the Kliper to save my life. It causes the rocket to veer away, and spin when you try to perform a gravity turn.

[equeim]

Kliper spacecraft was cancelled in 2009. Please, add new PTK NP ship - http://www.russianspaceweb.com/ptk_2012.html

[Budgie]

Ive really only tried launching it with Mechjeb, but even that gave me problems until I watched Bobcat's video. Try performing the gravity turn a bit later than you normally would is Bobcat's advice

[BobCat]

can't launch the Kliper to save my life. It causes the rocket to veer away, and spin when you try to perform a gravity turn.

You look tutorials?

Kliper spacecraft was cancelled in 2009

And so?

Please, add new PTK NP ship

Have blueprint and characteristic? For what mission this ship in KSP ?

Ive really only tried launching it with Mechjeb, but even that gave me problems until I watched Bobcat's video. Try performing the gravity turn a bit later than you normally would is Bobcat's advice

Im make video special for that ))

[Used Car Salesman]

I'm having an issue with several parts not showing up in the VAB. So far it appears to be the two Soyuz orbital modules, and the Kliper nosecone. The orbital modules load fine in a saved ship, but they just aren't available in the editor menu to be placed. The download didn't come with a Kliper save so I'm pretty much out of luck for building that.

[POTKC]

I think someone said that if you do not put all the plugins in the 'Plugins' folder then those parts don't show up in the VAB. Check if you have done that.

[Normak]

Just scale them to match other modders parts/existing standards. Ingame meters are totally arbitrary (it's not like we're bringing aboard a framed picasso and we'll be disappointed if there isn't enough wall space for it), and IVA size is unrelated to actual part size.

I appreciate your passion but KSP is not a game for rivet counting, and without a doubt the most frustrating thing about piecemeal modding (ie not Total Conversion modding) is when you have two lovely mods that don't play well together.

The whole point of that post was that modders shouldn't be expected to work on a universal standard, especially not the mythical 64% that people keep bringing up. Kosmos is scaled to 90% size, and we did it to make sure our capsule would fit on 2.5m parts, just like the Mk1-2.

As for making the two packs work together, some experimenting in KSP has shown me that the Mir parts work best with Kosmos when the Mir parts are rescaled to 1.1. Doing so requires you to rescale the Proton parts just the same. I don't know if this causes any problems with the Soyuz parts because I didn't test this, although in a separate test I found that resizing the Kosmos VA did not affect IVA the way Cardboard told me it would.

I'm not going to dog BobCat's parts in his thread- I love the way they look and I think Kosmos can take a lot of lessons from it, but I will say that I am having a difficult time getting them to mesh with other parts packs.

[Used Car Salesman]

I think someone said that if you do not put all the plugins in the 'Plugins' folder then those parts don't show up in the VAB. Check if you have done that.

That got it. I skipped the plugins because I figured Mechjeb and KAS were more up to date. Needed the ASAS plugin for those parts.

[POTKC]

That got it. I skipped the plugins because I figured Mechjeb and KAS were more up to date. Needed the ASAS plugin for those parts.

Well, I'm happy that I managed to help someone.

[equeim]

And so?

Have blueprint and characteristic? For what mission this ship in KSP ?

I sent a PM.

[equeim]

And so?

Have blueprint and characteristic? For what mission this ship in KSP ?

I sent a PM.

[BobCat]

64% , 85% , 90%....

Im take ~64 scale , and im think this good size for KSP, im post picture in MIR soyuz proportion.

If you need change scale for your mission or addon copability, its cool , change in cfg. ))

equeim

Its Dragon copy. KSP already have 2 exelent Dragon mods.

[Netris]

Are you going to make the payload fairings for Soyuz ST ? It could be nice to have some different fairings for commercial use

Here's some pictures :

[BobCat]

You mean left thing ?

[Netris]

Exactly what I meant. Is it in the last version ? I guess I should download.

[Guest]

Exactly what I meant. Is it in the last version ? I guess I should download.

Ninja'd by the BobCat!