Colonisation/terraforming - Eve vs Duna

[czokletmuss]

Do you include the gravity assists from Ike?

[henryrasia]

Yeah, no.

You see Eve hasn't been finished yet and AFAIK Nova wants to make Eve hell with killing winds, "oil" (propellum) oceans and rain, radioactivity everywhere, lightening, you name it. To this regard Duna or even Laythe are better options because the occasional sandstorms in Duna would be tickles compared to Eve. Besides Eve has no water, all the oceans are oil/plutonium. Duna at least *can* have water beneath the surface (and definetly in the ice caps). Another thing terraforming Duna would be a peace of cake compared to terraforming Eve (I can't eventhink about doing that).

Otherwise I appreciate your thoughts. Your data gathering was useful. I thought Duna was more like Kerbin than it is.

[Kerbface]

The idea of Laythe as a potential habitat for extrakerbal life sounds very interesting to me. Given how much radiation protection water gives, you could probably build a largely underwater base tethered to the ocean floor in a shallow area and be perfectly comfortable. And from there you could launch a submarine research mission, investigating the oceans and seeing if you could find microbial or even macroscopic life.

[hyperformer]

I would say duna, because of the thinner atmosphere, and as said earlier, water in the ice caps.

[TooManyErrors]

Definitely Duna, its the easiest planet to get to and to return from.

[Scotius]

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/features/silent-spring_2/

Read and rejoice According to this article life will find a way to thrive - everywhere. If fungi can grow and thrive inside heavily contaminated bowels of Chernobyl reactor, Laythe should be piece of cake. Give evolution whole planet to play with, and enough time and it will pop some seriously sturdy organisms. And, oh yeah - they will be dark brown to pitch black in color due to lots of radiation soaking melanin in their cells.

[Spatzimaus]

If fungi can grow and thrive inside heavily contaminated bowels of Chernobyl reactor, Laythe should be piece of cake.

Sorry, but no. it just doesn't work that way. A person on Europa's surface would receive 540 rem (5.4 Sieverts) per day, which is higher than the fatal dose. Sure, Chernobyl's core is higher than that (up to 300 Sieverts per hour, if you're right in the very center), but it's still more than high enough to kill cells quickly. Europa's rate is comparable to that in the various buildings in the Chernobyl complex, and Laythe would be comparable. Just because it's a bit less fatal doesn't mean it's the Garden of Eden.

Just because a fungus can survive in radiation doesn't mean anything more evolved could. There's just no such thing as an immunity to ionizing radiation (any photon of wavelength less than 911 Angstroms will ionize any elements it encounters, to say nothing of cosmic rays or other high-energy particles, so there simply can't be a chemical that can safely absorb those); a fungus doesn't really CARE if a cell mutates, because no one cell depends on any other cell to survive. The fungi in Chernobyl aren't immune to the radiation; they feed off it, and use that energy to reproduce, but it'll still kill them. If any individual cells are killed by radiation, the fungus as a whole doesn't suffer from it as long as it can create new cells faster than it loses them. That's not true of animals or plants, though; if cells start mutating (especially nerve cells) they can't always be replaced, and they can easily become cancerous. So even if fungi could live on Laythe, that doesn't in any way make it possible for higher organisms to survive.

And here's the thing about evolution: as a wise man once said, evolution is a movement AWAY from something, not TOWARDS something. Creatures don't evolve to fill a need, they evolve randomly and there's a small chance they'll evolve in such a way to better survive. But it's just as likely (actually, far more likely) to go the other direction, and mutate in a way that makes the creature even less able to survive. Now, why do I bring this up? Those fungi in Chernobyl are mutations of an existing creature. They mutated from a fungus that, like most others on this planet, couldn't feed off radiation. hat fungus lived in that area for millions of years, and some spores of that species eventually made their way inside the reactor. Even if every single copy inside the reactor died (and they would), more spores would be continually arriving from the outside to keep trying until eventually, a version mutated that could take advantage of the radiation somehow. It might take thousands or millions of generations before this happened, but given enough time, it would happen.

But for life to evolve on a moon like this, it'd have to have BEGAN with that ability, because otherwise the first generation of life would be wiped out by the radiation, and it'd never have a chance to evolve into something more durable. Somewhere, the first organism would have been born... and then probably died from the radiation long before it could reproduce. There's really just no safe place to start from, other than the bottoms of the oceans (which'd mask most of the incoming radiation, which actually works against you a bit since it reduces the chance of mutating into a more durable version). This is why most astronomers just aren't optimistic about finding life on other planets; it's possible in theory, but too many things need to go right for us to find it in the first few places we look.

[ZingidyZongxxx]

http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/phase.html

Higher pressure causes water to stay liquid even beyond its normal boiling point. Not sure of the exact point (guessing that 2atm probably isn't enough to counterbalance the 50 degree temperature difference), but it's not impossible.

Atmospheric pressure at sea level is 5 atm, so it may very well be enough to counterbalance this.

One problem with his mountain theory is that you still need to transport that water from the oceans to the mountain base. Rovers break easily on Eve due to it's high gravity, and they would have to climb steep mountains. I guess airships on Eve might work though...

The idea of Laythe as a potential habitat for extrakerbal life sounds very interesting to me. Given how much radiation protection water gives, you could probably build a largely underwater base tethered to the ocean floor in a shallow area and be perfectly comfortable. And from there you could launch a submarine research mission, investigating the oceans and seeing if you could find microbial or even macroscopic life.

Laythe is definitely the best bet. Plenty of water, enough oxygen, close to Kerbin gravity, and reasonable temperatures. If liquid water can exist, then temperatures are surely in the right zone for life, especially with the similar atmospheres.

Edited April 21, 2013 by ZingidyZongxxx

[Wait- Was That Important?]

I was under the impression, and have had that reinforced by the comments in this thread, that Eve is nothing like it's namesake. It's not a fertile ground for the growth of the Kerbal race- it actually seems pretty hellish. From a practical standpoint, getting anything up from Eve is very difficult. Payload fractions are in the range of 1-2% if you're lucky, making moving fuel to orbit in any sort of respectable quantities nearly impossible.

On the other hand, Duna is far more reasonable. Water can be gathered from the polar ice caps- even if they're mostly carbon dioxide there's bound to be some water ice there. For that matter, the atmosphere is less turbulent and has what I assume is a less toxic mixture of gases, along with being easier to ascend from. It's a good balance of easiness to reach (versus Laythe, which is the best candidate) and habitability.

I would say Duna all the way.

[ThatBum]

I thought I read some science fiction about terraforming involving electromagnetically accelerated comets being fired into Mars, to increase temperature from the energy of entry and the COâ‚‚ content. One of the Asimov stories or something like that. It could conceivably work on Duna, if there were any comets around.

Edit: Something like this.

[UmbralRaptor]

On a strict delta-v basis, Duna is clearly a priority over Eve. And the Mun and Minmus take precedence over Duna. This obviously changes if you're fine with not much leaving the gravity wells...

I'm curious about what things will be like from a resource perspective, especially what Gilly and Ike will contribute to the planets. Sufficiently useful/valuable materials may drive us to interesting places, or make some areas much easier/harder.

Kerbol is not Sol, Eve is not Venus, Duna is not Mars, and Laythe is neither Io nor Titan. Laythe is likely the 'easiest' choice for a colony, since it's probably a shirtsleeves environment. That said, Eve and Duna are far more habitable than their real world counterparts. If they're in a safe temperature range, appropriate clothing and an oxygen mask may be all that's required.

[Scotius]

Of course i was not suggesting looking for multicellular plants and animals But life is life - finding extraterrestial fungi or lichen would (or will, hopefully) be a big deal in itself. As for evolution: life spreads. Even if life on Laythe began in the depths of the ocean, shielded from deadly radiation, there is still probability some organisms found their way to upper layers of the water. Most of them of course died fast, but some of more radiation-resistant survived long enough to give birth to even more sturdy offspring - and so on, and so on. Again, i don't expect to find Laythan lions and antelopes - but simple organisms like fungi, algae and lichen can be expected.

[ROFLCopter64bit]

The only way to resolve this dispute is wait for Squad to make a Geiger counter as a scientific part and take it to Laythe.

[CalculusWarrior]

I would love a Gieger Counter! I wish there were more than four scientific instruments that we can stick onto our probes. I think a colony on Eve could work well if lighter-than-air craft were used. Airships could easily reduce the delta-v requirements to get into orbit, considering how thick the atmosphere is. Any colony on Eve would likely just be a resource exporting operation anyways, so it could be a prison, like one of the previous comments suggested. The convicts (konvicts?) would mine for Blutonium to power Kerbalkind's space program! Some of the Blutonium could be used to power a nuclear reactor or RTG, and since they're criminals (kriminals?) the colonists (kolonists?) wouldn't really be there for the view.

[ROFLCopter64bit]

konvicts? kriminals? kolonists?

If nova saw this he would bring out the plastic explosives.

Anyway, why can't we make it like Aperture Laboratories, and have a giant AI incharge of the facility and the tests can be mines?

[ComradeGoat]

That's Eve, only the ship wouldn't get off the planet.

SSTO using what appears to be a chemical rocket from Venus seems … unlikely!

[Swifty]

I think there needs to be real incentives for colonising eve. It also gives the opportunity of making rovers even more useful for diving between the ocean and a launch site.

[czokletmuss]

The only way to resolve this dispute is wait for Squad to make a Geiger counter as a scientific part and take it to Laythe.

And to Eve and Duna.

[Kerbface]

I would love a Gieger Counter! I wish there were more than four scientific instruments that we can stick onto our probes. I think a colony on Eve could work well if lighter-than-air craft were used. Airships could easily reduce the delta-v requirements to get into orbit, considering how thick the atmosphere is. Any colony on Eve would likely just be a resource exporting operation anyways, so it could be a prison, like one of the previous comments suggested. The convicts (konvicts?) would mine for Blutonium to power Kerbalkind's space program! Some of the Blutonium could be used to power a nuclear reactor or RTG, and since they're criminals (kriminals?) the colonists (kolonists?) wouldn't really be there for the view.

Are there plans for balloons in the future (as far as I know this is the only method of lighter than air travel so I assume it's what you mean)?

Also, what would they use in the ballons? Helium? Hydrogen? Or on a planet like Eve, would simply having a large regular pressure air compartment be enough to provide substantial lift?

[Richy teh space man]

Are there plans for balloons in the future (as far as I know this is the only method of lighter than air travel so I assume it's what you mean)?

Also, what would they use in the ballons? Helium? Hydrogen? Or on a planet like Eve, would simply having a large regular pressure air compartment be enough to provide substantial lift?

Not sure about the future, but in the mean time you can use the Hooligan Labs balloons, they're on the space port.

[Perdog]

But it means problems with cooling (which is said to going to be added). Wouldn't the Ike be better? Colder, yes, but you can build a base and cover it with the regolith plus use the energy from the solar panels to warm it a little bit.

Probably nothing new to anyone here, but I thought I'd add to this.

Creating heat is much easier to do then to move it around. The mechanics of cooling is to take the heat from somewhere it isn't wanted, and putting it where it's unobjectionable. You'd likely want to dump the heat outside the dome or whatever you're using to conceal your kerbals from the atmosphere. Moving heat out into 149 degree temperatures would need a special condensing unit capable of handling high pressure.

I'm not sure the kind of refrigerants kerbals have, but using IRL examples, they'd probably use R-114. The boiling point is around 3.5 degrees, allowing the temperature to be brought down to a comfortable 20-30 degrees. The units would need to be able to handle extremely high pressures within the condensing coil, as the pressure would have to be roughly 455 PSI (A bit higher, as 455 PSI brings the boiling point to 150 degrees, and we would want it to be more around the range of 170 dgrees). All this equipment is going to be difficult to maintain, not to mention expensive. Lots of work involved.

The alternative, Duna, is colder, but as I said earlier creating heat is much simpler. Find something to burn, burn it, and blow a fan past a heat exchanger. DONE. Equipment is much easier to maintain and keep in working order.

I would love to set up a base on Eve (It's such a beautiful planet), but if squad makes colonizing realistic, with temperatures, pressures, radiation, etc. affecting kerbals, then Duna seems like the better option to me.

[Tw1]

I'd love a geiger counter! And a magnetometer. While I prefer to leave things in a semi-natural condition, I'd love bases on both eventually.

Duna is the obvious choice, for many reasons. But really, why not both? For scientific/exploration purposes at least.

Eve is going to be a harsh place, but I hope missions and bases on Eve will still be possible. Making planetary visits imposible would just be silly for a computer game, but giving certain ground conditions you have to work with would make things very interesting.

I've been planing boat exploration of Eve, and that could make some cool scenery. Imagine clouds swirling, lightning flashing, my brave kerbalnuaght posing on the bow of his ship, as he rides over the sluggish, Eveian swell.

(Or hunkered down in the hull, wishing he'd waited on that last island, while hoping the anchor holds...)

Thick Eveian clouds would be cool as long as we get clear patches occasionally. The stars are quite pretty when contrasted with all the purple.

[czokletmuss]

Creating heat is much easier to do then to move it around.

Exactly. Plus you need lots of energy anyways, so you can just use the surplus to heat your base. If you have nuclear reactor, than you can just use the heat from it instead of using radiators or cooling system.

[whiterafter]

Just basing this on the "if its cold you can always put on a coat" saying.

On Duna, you already have a similar atmosphere so less need for huge spacesuits, you can increase the gravity with magnetism (magnets on shoes/ground), you can warm up by using natural processes to your advantage.

It's always easier to add to stuff rather than take it off. That said, Duna is probably the better place for colonization. To get Eve to be colonizable, you have to go 6k up, but on Duna, its generally easier than Eve but its all around.

Eve is my favorite planet though, so Evelovers don't be offended.

Edited May 25, 2013 by whiterafter
just doing stuff

[Holo]

From a terraforming standpoint, Duna is better as you need to move 0.8 atms of mass to atmosphereate Duna, however you have to move 4 atms to kerbaform Eve. Laythe may be even better, depending on how heavy the equipment to make an artificial magnetosphere is.