Whats the problem with DLCs?

[karolus10]

I don't like "cutting game in half" argument - it base on childish assumption that DEV's will be working next months/years improving base KSP instead making add-ons for them... but they will not.

You see (simple version) , every month of making KSP cost money.

Indie games like KSP are mostly founded from selling the game before it's completion, unlike some triple A productions which had money invested into project and start count sells (return of investment) after release.

KSP will not be selling indefinitely ,so they must do their job done and move on.

Theoretically, if they will develop this game long enough, they run out of money or had negligible profit compared to money invested in making game itself.

Making expansion packs or sequel is only viable way to give customers "more KSP" - anyone shouldn't expect that after paying some money once you get everything with KSP written on them.

Anyway, we are talking about stuff that will not happen soon (if at all), so stop worry and enjoy this game .

Edited May 3, 2013 by karolus10

[lyndonguitar]

I would die if the game was completed and then that's it, no expansions whatsoever, sure mods expands the game, but nothing beats the devs, they got the tools, the skills, the passion.. This game needs expansion packs. and PAID, Sure the early buyers might get it free as a promise, but I can tell you the 2011-April 2013 buyers are just a minor number compared to the post release buyers.

When the game is released the game will get tons of Public Attention, especially if it gets great reviews and it would gather sales more than it got in those 2 years, Because many players don't actually buy early access games and wait for reviews/final product, etc, that's when the expansion pack buyers come in.

For example = ExpPack 1 focuses on Astronaut activity(IVA EVA), ExpPack 2 focuses on more exploration, ExpPack 3 focuses on more techs and resources, ExpPack 4 on random events, etc, etc. just adding things that mods can't do, each costing 5-20 bucks, then its instant earn. No need for a completely new game. This is one of the few instances that I really wanna "milk" the game. unlike games like COD, Sims, etc etc

[Brabbit1987]

Well I see this topic isn't super super old, so I will just use this for now.

After purchasing KSP which was after May since I was not able to purchase it sooner though I had wanted too. I actually say it is a tad unfair even with the whole wording issues. Veterans pay less, and now anyone who got it before may, gets free expansions. Yet all your newer customers are paying more and essentially getting less.

For me personally this isn't a huge issue depending on what is offered as an expansion. However, from what I read on the official response it would be major feature based expansions, which then would make the initial game feel incomplete with out them once they are released. To me this is a big issue. If traveling to other solar systems was left out .. and then put in an expansion where all people who purchased the game a month earlier then myself gets it free. I would be really pissed off, because it's a feature I am hoping for and looking forward to and I payed more then most of them.

I also don't feel that is over reacting.

In my personal opinion, expansions should be kept simple. Adds content, but not necessary features that will make someones original purchase feel incomplete.

If it isn't done this way and I end up having payed more for an incomplete game .. no matter how good your future games are, I honestly wouldn't purchase another game from you again.

I really feel this needs to be solved another way to as not leave out your other customers who purchased after may.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Brabbit1987

[SkyRender]

There is no "easy" solution, sadly. Much of Squad's current model is an attempt to address the problem that often comes with early adoption (that of paying more to get it sooner and ultimately reaping fewer benefits). But as Brabbit noted, that model can easily reverse itself and reward the early adopters over-much compared to those who buy in later. I suspect that any expansions KSP gets which fall into the "pay to play" category will be significant game-changers, as the general attitude of DLC is quite the opposite of Brabbit's stance: most don't want or care about empty little "nothing" expansions that add content which serves no real purpose save as a status symbol.

Basically, Squad should do what Squad feels is best, and try not to be too hurt that they can't please everyone. Which, I expect, was the plan all along.

[sadron]

DLC has a VERY bad name, in part because it is a meaningless term:

We have the "famous" DLC of horse armour, pay 1 USD for something a free mod could add... and is comparable to the free content offered by prior games.

Then we have the DLC that actually ADDS something to the game. Unfortunately, sometimes what is added fits far too well and it feels like the company left out a major portion of the game only to sell it at a later date (worse is when DLC content is released only a few weeks after the "official release.")

In this case, it really has nothing to do with expansions, updates, or DLC. I've seen it several times when people who purchased an alpha try and get more out of the developers; from the company standpoint, it is better to shut them up than to deal with the negative publicity.

ME3 Javik. Day one DLC.

[Brabbit1987]

Well, I hope Squad comes up with a more fair method. What they could have done is offered all alpha testers the first expansion for free. This would not have left out any of their alpha testers, would have been nice compensation for the promise wording issues, and would have kept numbers fairly reasonable.

Example of current free expansions before may. Say 3 expansion total come out and say you have 4,000 who get them for free. That is 12,000. Now say first expansion free, all alpha testers. Lets say 10,000 people. That is still less. Just an example, pulled numbers out of thin air.

This is why I feel like Squad made the decision way to early as I feel their could have been a much better solution that keeps just about everyone happy.

[Exal]

Dude let it go there is no point in ranting about that now. That's the kind of post that started one heck of a thread one time.

[Rage097]

Rage097's guide to succesful DLC:

1. Don't be EA.

2.Make sure you will never be EA.

3. Do not make it cost >/= The base game.

4. make it add something VERY SUBTANSTIAL to the game.

[Melfice]

ME3 Javik. Day one DLC.

I don't know how this is relevant to the post you quoted, but here goes!

I don't know what you do, whether you work or still go to school, but let me make an analogy:

Let's say you work in a warehouse, and you get paid by performance.

So, you're doing your thing and you finish your part of the job. As the rest of the warehouse moves into gear to get the product you made ready for packing and shipping you're now sitting on your ass, twiddling your thumbs.

Considering you're getting paid by performance, this is not ideal. So, you start working on the next project. This could be a follow-up order (DLC!) for that same customer, and it may turn out the order is so small you can have it shipped out the same day, or shortly after the original shipment! (Day One DLC!)

This is how companies work! Every day you're not working is a day you're not making money!

[KasperVld]

You can also look at it this way: those who bought the game really early on took a greater chance with their investment, say KSP would've never gotten finished because it's simply not profitable then a final update would be released and you'd be stuck with a half finished game. Increased risk in investments means increased interest and thus those who take greater chances get greater returns.

Personally I hope Squad will include a pay-what-you-want for the expansion for the early adopters. I'm sure a lot of players have no problem paying for them even if they are entitled to get it for free.

The whole point why early adopters got them for free is because Squad had promised everyone that all future updates for the game would be free in their licenses. Squad did not consider expansion packs (after release) updates but a lot of players started complaining about that. Personally I think Squads point of view was correct but they decided to give in and make the expansion free to those who had the license with the unfortunate phrasing. Remember that the less profitable development becomes the less will be developped because in the end Squad is a company that needs to turn a profit.

And lets not forget that Squad says development will most likely take at least another year to year and a half, and no DLC/Expansion packs are planned at this time.

Edited May 22, 2013 by KasperVld

[expirity]

Well I see this topic isn't super super old, so I will just use this for now.

After purchasing KSP which was after May since I was not able to purchase it sooner though I had wanted too. I actually say it is a tad unfair even with the whole wording issues. Veterans pay less, and now anyone who got it before may, gets free expansions. Yet all your newer customers are paying more and essentially getting less.

For me personally this isn't a huge issue depending on what is offered as an expansion. However, from what I read on the official response it would be major feature based expansions, which then would make the initial game feel incomplete with out them once they are released. To me this is a big issue. If traveling to other solar systems was left out .. and then put in an expansion where all people who purchased the game a month earlier then myself gets it free. I would be really pissed off, because it's a feature I am hoping for and looking forward to and I payed more then most of them.

I also don't feel that is over reacting.

In my personal opinion, expansions should be kept simple. Adds content, but not necessary features that will make someones original purchase feel incomplete.

If it isn't done this way and I end up having payed more for an incomplete game .. no matter how good your future games are, I honestly wouldn't purchase another game from you again.

I really feel this needs to be solved another way to as not leave out your other customers who purchased after may.

I strongly disagree with this post.

If someone should get something for free, then it should be those veterans and that's because they did not give money to Squad for a game but for a POTENCIAL game. KSP is great game right now, but let's be honest in the beginning (like pretty much every game) it wasn't that good. No features, bad design and poor optimization. And those people still paid their money and thanks to them we have an AWESOME game which has not been even completed yet.

Yes i know it suck that someone gets more stuff for less money, but Squad had to make decision and there will be always few people who bought the game a day or a week later and they will have to pay for expansion's and DLC's.

As regards of the expansions of KSP, it must be something big. If they will release parts bundle or just some minor features, there won't be no need to buy them because of mods. Why should anyone pay money for something they can get for free...

With that said, i'll gladly throw my money on Harvester and whole Squad because they deserve it.

Edited May 22, 2013 by expirity

[Toshogu]

I'll throw money at an honest to goodness Expansion, but screw DLC $5 for the new rocket engine and -fluffy bunnies- like that.

I'll drop another $20-40 for an old school expansion pack. depending what the added content is. 20+ new parts +new planets +new places on old planets, +new missions. etc.. etc..

-fluffy bunnies- $$$ DLC. I'm an OG, and I remember when companies didn't try to -fluffy bunnies- you for every penny.

Edited May 22, 2013 by KasperVld

[The Jedi Master]

That. Post. Was. AMAZING.

Personally, I don't see why DLC would be intrusive in any way. If you don't want the pack, or think it's price unreasonable, don't buy it. *gasp* It's revolutionary!

[Caelib]

As a consumer of a great product, if I could pay more to expedite its development, I would.

[h3half]

Regardless of how everyone feels about it, Squad is in a rough spot here. Myself (and many other people here) purchased the game in early Alpha, way before Steam Early Access, docking, maneuver nodes, and the resources system (remember when all you had was the green bar in the cluttered staging stack?). Back then, the terms that you purchased the game under promised that once you bought the game, you had it. All of it. Forever. That's a legal agreement, and if Squad had backtracked and tried to charge those people for the new content Squad could very likely be facing a class-action lawsuit. Obviously the reaction of the userbase was quite negative as well, which was no doubt another a strong incentive to backtrack the way they did.

However, it's not realistic to expect a company to take a one-time fee for a product that they continually develop. Regardless of how you might personally feel, if everyone got every update for free forever Squad would go bankrupt. That's how business works. So they can't charge everybody, and they can't charge nobody. You see the situation they're in.

While their final solution is not perfect (and the whole situation was a bit of PR fiasco), it's probably the best option for everybody. While I would be fine with paying for expansion packs myself, the legally binding agreement I saw upon purchase says I don't have to.

As long as the Expansion Packs are just that - big updates to the game that add new content - things will work out OK. Something like the Mining System {note that this is just an example} or new star systems or a whole plethora of functional and useful science equipment; things that feel like extra content, not like core functionality. We need to remember that this is a spaceship game, and (in my humble opinion) anything that goes beyond that would be considered "extra."

I trust Squad to make the right decisions here. I also trust that they don't want to screw over their customers and that they care about their community. Everything points towards Squad being a "good company," and I have full faith in them and their decisions.

[comham]

I don't usually suggest ideas, but maybe the expansions could expand on currently black boxed game mechanics, like engine design. Or an in-situ VAB-style interface for designing buildings with proper, pressurised interiors.

[h3half]

maybe the expansions could expand on currently black boxed game mechanics, like engine design. Or an in-situ VAB-style interface for designing buildings with proper, pressurised interiors.

That would be incredible. You should suggest things more often: that's awesome.

[zitronen]

Really, I WANT TO PAY MORE, cause i wan´t this unique game beeing developed for the next years.

So say we all!

I bought the game when it was $10 or something, but I really hope Squad will give us an option to pay for the expansion anyway. Don't make us throw money at the screen!!!!

Because of all the whole "oh no not DLC" crap dev stream is no more, DR left, and 0.20 is delayed. I hope you guys are proud of yourselves.

[Uberick]

Normally, I'm not a big fan of DLC. . . I much preferred the old days of proper "expansions" that cost 20$, but actually added 20$ worth of content, rather than a 5$ DLC that adds maybe 30 minutes of playtime.

However, I actually like what SQUAD seems to be saying about their DLC. . . namely, that their DLC will introduce whole new mechanics to the game. Big, sweeping changes rather than small changes that modders can already provide. Their reasoning also seems sound. . . only the hardcore people are going to be using the more complicated features; and since the hardcore crowd is planning to spend 200+ hours on the game, they will be fine spending extra $ on DLC that allows greatly increased complexity.

As an example, I would spend $ on DLC that allows realistic moon bases to be constructed and maintained, whereas my brother mostly plays this game to watch rockets blow up, and wouldn't spend a dime on it.

I think that providing a core experience, and then adding DLC afterwards to cater to a more hardcore crowd is perfectly acceptable, and will allow the game to be released to the masses while still providing a unique hardcore experience that so many of us(myself included) love.

P.S. If SQUAD had a donation box, where perhaps if you donate you get a special forum badge or something( or early access to beta builds, or dev blogs or something), I think many people would take advantage of it. I, personally, would take advantage of such a system. In the meantime I'll be buying KSP T-shirts and coffee mugs to try to help out.

Keep it up SQUAD, make KSP the best it can be!

Edited May 22, 2013 by Uberick

[redarrow141]

I agree with the people saying that dlc should be new gameplay content, and for that it should cost money - to support the ongoing development. I would happily pay more for big game-changing expansion packs such as FTL travel, more solar systems and galaxies and other stuff which REALLY changes the game play. I am myself very tempted to buy another copy of the game - when i have the money - and then buy all the DLC when it comes out, because from experience the worse thing to happen to a game you love is for the company to run out of money mid development; and I can imagine a lot more development for this game even after release.

[Nao]

Guys you also forget one important thing, the SIZE of the development team. There is no way of getting big chunks of quality content on top of normal game development from the team consisting of 10-20 people. And adding large amount of fresh content creators for the sake of money would most likely result in a loss of quality and cohesion of the game.

I too would like to give more money to the creators, for the hundreds of hours sinked into it, but i would rather have much longer development time for content than, having more of it faster by means of DLC at a loss of quality.

Forcing the increase in studio size due to demand, especially for a fresh developer, can add all kinds of troubles and mismanagement opportunities, possibly derailing the original concept of the game and burying some of its potential.

The way it's working now, with new staff coming in because of passion and dedication of the game, is improving the quality and direction the game is heading. Having a small team of dedicated and not necessarily experienced people can do wonders. As many indie titles have shown. But having a big studio full of experienced people does not mean an awesome game.

So i'm not afraid of the DLC per se (as they would be a different breed to the "day one new ending with horse armor on top DLC" nonsense) but the requirement of additional load on developers could be damaging to the game in the long run.

As the game is still quite early in the development its quite hard to create "expansions", requiring another purchase, out of standard development content. If SQUAD manages it then big props for them, but for now they still have plenty of time to get the game closer to finished state and work on more income from there. I think there are plenty of people buying it through steam early access, and there will be a ton more when it releases.

So for the time being we are struck with purchasing another copy of the game as a donation method. And importantly playing it and sharing(!) the experience, creating tutorials and mods, basically filling out the current holes to attract new players. Working as a free advertisement and a steady income through new buyers.

[Brabbit1987]

For the people who are talking about purchasing early . .we are going by less then a month here. So everyone gets it free, but because I purchased it a little to late, I get left out of that. I been following KSP for a long time, just have not gotten a chance to buy it until recently. This was my birthday present ... and my birthday was March 5th. -.-

Also, you put in less money which was more risky because you where not sure if you where going to get the $8 back? $10? Sorry to say, that is hardly a big investment, and you all know you purchased the game be cause you want to see this game come to light. Well, I am no different. The game is not even remotely close to done. I payed $23.

The only reason why most disagree with me is because it doesn't effect them. They are already getting it for free. Then they can play the card, ohhh I would pay for it anyway. How much you want to bet that actually isn't the case. Also you already paid less then everyone else >.>.

I won't be happy with this until they make this more fair. After their announcement they didn't even give us much time for those who had planed to buy it.

It should have been more reasonable like anyone who purchased before .20 or something along those lines.

Also don't act like I am being greedy, cause I would be willing to pay for the expansions if everyone else was willing to as well. Which you all say you would, but if that was the case this would have never been an issue to begin with. The reason this even happened is because of these "early adopters" complaining about it.

[KasperVld]

You have to set a date somewhere, if we say "oh yeah, people who bought it un May also get that" then people who buy it in June will complain just like you did now.

[Brabbit1987]

You have to set a date somewhere, if we say "oh yeah, people who bought it un May also get that" then people who buy it in June will complain just like you did now.

Well whatever, if they want to piss off their later customers .. that is fine. Either way they are going to end up pissing off someone and in the end .. they are pissing off the ones who paid more.

[paulram16]

The thing with doing any additional content is that for the standards of the game, it is definitely not the right time to even think about the subject at all, Downloadable content should be thought about when the game is near release, not when its in the middle of alpha. Secondly I have no problem with DLC myself but when I purchased the game I expected there wouldn't be any additional content like minecraft and if there was, it would be completely free to me because of what is currently stated on the website

* "By ordering KSP now, you get the game in it's current state and all future updates."

Now to me that sounds like I will receive all additional content but that's just how I perceive it.