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Dragon Rider Capsule [0.23 (2/14/14)

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Free Trader Beowulf

Free Trader Beowulf

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Hi,

First up, I really like your model of the dragon (and your Kosmos stuff, but that's another thread), so thanks for your hard work on that front. Second up, I too think it's a bit overpowered. Actually, I think it's dry mass is too low. Been thinking about this all day and juggling a few numbers, so I thought I'd post my thoughts.

As it stands, 2.5 tons for a 7 man capsule and a 250kN engine is very light compared to the stock stuff. Personally, I'd really like the dragon to be balanced with the stock components. Maybe slightly better, but not radically as it is now.

The best stock engine for thrust to weight is the mainsail, 1500kN and 6 tons. So a 250kN engine alone should be at least 1 ton.

As for the crew capsule, the best stock capsule in terms of crew per ton is the one man lander can, at 0.6 tons per crewman, which wold give us around 4.2 tons for a 7 man capsule. So dry mass should be around 5.2 tons to compare sensibly with the stock components.

But I'd also increase the power of the engine to go with the increase in dry mass. Personally I'd go for 400kN engine power. If we allow the dragon a slight advantage over stock (it is meant to be cutting edge after all) I'd go for a dry mass of 5.5 tons with a 400kN engine.

Stats for the real dragon rider are a little difficult to come by. But the stats I've found seem to suggest it's 8 tons dry, with 2 tons of fuel and an isp of 260 after allowing for the angle of the thrusters. Giving a delta V of around 600 m/s. TWR is 5 or so. So again, I'd allow the in game dragon rider to be a little better maybe, keep the iso at 290 but give it 2 tons of fuel for an delta v of around 880.

Obviously that's all just my opinion, but as it stands 2.5 tons for a 7 man capsule and 250kN engine is radically better than stock.

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Simplicity

Simplicity

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as per posts/whining I have done some simple simple "balacing" and made it so dragon can only escape speed up to about 2 miles or something like that.

Can those of us who are not interested in realism change anything in the cfg file so that we get the old dragon balancing back - it's ok if you say no :)

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CardBoardBoxProcessor

CardBoardBoxProcessor

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Hi,

First up, I really like your model of the dragon (and your Kosmos stuff, but that's another thread), so thanks for your hard work on that front. Second up, I too think it's a bit overpowered. Actually, I think it's dry mass is too low. Been thinking about this all day and juggling a few numbers, so I thought I'd post my thoughts.

As it stands, 2.5 tons for a 7 man capsule and a 250kN engine is very light compared to the stock stuff. Personally, I'd really like the dragon to be balanced with the stock components. Maybe slightly better, but not radically as it is now.

The best stock engine for thrust to weight is the mainsail, 1500kN and 6 tons. So a 250kN engine alone should be at least 1 ton.

As for the crew capsule, the best stock capsule in terms of crew per ton is the one man lander can, at 0.6 tons per crewman, which wold give us around 4.2 tons for a 7 man capsule. So dry mass should be around 5.2 tons to compare sensibly with the stock components.

But I'd also increase the power of the engine to go with the increase in dry mass. Personally I'd go for 400kN engine power. If we allow the dragon a slight advantage over stock (it is meant to be cutting edge after all) I'd go for a dry mass of 5.5 tons with a 400kN engine.

Stats for the real dragon rider are a little difficult to come by. But the stats I've found seem to suggest it's 8 tons dry, with 2 tons of fuel and an isp of 260 after allowing for the angle of the thrusters. Giving a delta V of around 600 m/s. TWR is 5 or so. So again, I'd allow the in game dragon rider to be a little better maybe, keep the iso at 290 but give it 2 tons of fuel for an delta v of around 880.

Obviously that's all just my opinion, but as it stands 2.5 tons for a 7 man capsule and 250kN engine is radically better than stock.

I like your numbers. However for weight refer to Apollo and Orion and other mudern space crasft being radically heavier than Dragon. Dragon is of light weight design. I will perhaps make it 4.5 instead of 5.5

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Orphican

Orphican

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Posted
Can those of us who are not interested in realism change anything in the cfg file so that we get the old dragon balancing back - it's ok if you say no :)
If you have the R3 dragon just use the fuel and engine cfg

I've already done this. Changes in red. I think those are all the changes I made but I cannot check as I've deleted my copy of R3. :rolleyes: I'll take this down if CardBoardBoxProcessor doesn't like it here. 

PART
{
// --- general parameters ---
name = cBBp_Dragon
module = CommandPod
author = cBBp

// --- asset parameters ---

mesh = model.mu


// --- node definitions ---
// definition format is Position X, Position Y, Position Z, Up X, Up Y, Up Z


node_stack_bottom = 0.0, -0.8362352, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0
node_stack_top = 0.0, 1.4769561, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0
node_stack_ASAS = 0.0, 1.3005309, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0

//-0.6316727m

node_stack_trunk = 0.0, -0.6316727, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0





fx_exhaustFlame_yellow = 0.0, -5, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, running
fx_exhaustLight_yellow = 0.0, -5, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, running
//fx_smokeTrail_small = 0.0, -5, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, running



// --- Sound FX definition ---

sound_vent_medium = engage
sound_rocket_hard = running
sound_vent_soft = disengage
sound_explosion_low = flameout



// --- editor parameters ---
cost = 1600
category = Pods
subcategory = 0
title = Dragon Rider Capsule
manufacturer = cBBp Space Development Co.
description = The Dragon Capsule is basically the minivan of space transportation with it's ability to hold Seven crew members and it's spacious interior. It comes fully equipped with built in a docking and propulsion to allow it to shuttle its crew and cargo about in orbit. The Dragons array of Lights, landing gear and engines enable it to be the perfect drop pod to make landings on any celestial body.   
// attachment rules: stack, srfAttach, allowStack, allowSrfAttach, allowCollision
attachRules = 1,0,1,1,1

// --- standard part parameters ---
mass = 2.5
dragModelType = default
maximum_drag = 0.2
minimum_drag = 0.1
angularDrag = 2
crashTolerance = 45
maxTemp = 3400



vesselType = Ship
// --- pod/rcs parameters ---

rotPower = 3
linPower = 1.1


Kp = 1
Kd = 1
// --- tweakables (coming soon...) ---



// --- internal setup ---
CrewCapacity = 7

INTERNAL
{
  name = DragonGuts
}

MODULE
{
	name = ModuleCommand
	minimumCrew = 0

	//remove this to make it not use power
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = ElectricCharge
		rate = 0.01
	}
	//end power removal

}

MODULE
{
	name = MechJebCore
}

MODULE
{
	name = LazorSystemDockingCamera
}

RESOURCE
{
	name = ElectricCharge
	amount = 500
	maxAmount = 500
}

MODULE
{
	name = ModuleSAS
}

MODULE
{
	name = ModuleReactionWheel

	PitchTorque = 5
	YawTorque = 5
	RollTorque = 5

	RESOURCE
	{
		name = ElectricCharge
		rate = 0.5
	}
}

MODULE
{
name = ModuleRCS
thrusterTransformName = RCSthruster
thrusterPower = 0
isJustForShow = true
resourceName = MonoPropellant
	fxOffset = 0, -39.3, 0
atmosphereCurve
{
   	 key = 0 [B][COLOR="#FF0000"]260[/COLOR][/B]
  	 key = 1 [B][COLOR="#FF0000"]100[/COLOR][/B]
}
}

MODULE
{
name = ModuleRCS
thrusterTransformName = Special_RCS
thrusterPower = 1
resourceName = MonoPropellant
	fxOffset = 1e5, 1e5, 1e5
atmosphereCurve
{
   	 key = 0 260
  	 key = 1 100
}
}




RESOURCE
{
name = MonoPropellant
amount = [B][COLOR="#FF0000"]2000[/COLOR][/B]
maxAmount = [B][COLOR="#FF0000"]2000[/COLOR][/B]
}



MODULE
{
	name = ModuleEngines
	thrustVectorTransformName = thrustTransform
	exhaustDamage = False
	ignitionThreshold = 0.1
	minThrust = 0
	maxThrust = [COLOR="#FF0000"][B]400[/B][/COLOR]
	heatProduction = 400
	fxOffset = 0, 0, 0
	PROPELLANT
	{
		name = MonoPropellant

        	ratio = 1
		DrawGauge = True
	}
	atmosphereCurve
 	{
   	 key = 0 290
  	 key = 1 250
 	}

}

MODULE
{
	name = ModuleGimbal
	gimbalTransformName = thrustTransform
	gimbalRange = 0.5
        //useGimbalResponseSpeed = true
	//GimbalResponseSpeed = 0.5
}

MODULE
{
      name = ModuleAnimateHeat
      ThermalAnim = overheat
}


MODULE
{
       name = ModuleJettison
       jettisonName = fairing
       bottomNodeName = bottom
       isFairing = True
       jettisonedObjectMass = 0.1
       jettisonForce = 5
       jettisonDirection = 0 0 1

}


MODULE
{
	name = ModuleAnimateGeneric
	animationName = Ladder
	startEventGUIName = Extend Ladder
	endEventGUIName = Retract Ladder
}



MODULE
{
	name = ModuleDockingNode
	referenceAttachNode = top	
	nodeType = size1
	//controlTransformName = dockingNode
}

MODULE
{
	name = ModuleAnimateGeneric
	animationName = RendezvousLight
	startEventGUIName = Rendezvous Light On
	endEventGUIName = Rendezvous Light Off
}

MODULE
{
	name = ModuleAnimateGeneric
	animationName = LandingLights
	startEventGUIName = Landing Lights On
	endEventGUIName = Landing Lights Off
}

MODULE
{
	name = ModuleAnimateGeneric
	animationName = FloodLights
	startEventGUIName = Area Flood Lights On
	endEventGUIName = Area Flood Lights Off
}

MODULE
{
	name = ModuleAnimateGeneric
	animationName = Extend_Gear
	startEventGUIName = Extend Landing Struts
	endEventGUIName = Retract Landing Struts
}

MODULE
{
name = ModuleDecouple
ejectionForce = 250
explosiveNodeID = bottom
}



//MODULE
//{
//	name = ModuleLight
//        lightName = LandingLight003
//	useAnimationDim = true
//	lightBrightenSpeed = 4
//	lightDimSpeed = 4
//	resourceAmount = 0.1/
//	animationName = LandingLight
//	useResources = true
//}






// ----- DO NOT EDIT BELOW THIS POINT ------

}

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MDBenson

MDBenson

Posted
Posted (edited)
I like your numbers. However for weight refer to Apollo and Orion and other mudern space crasft being radically heavier than Dragon. Dragon is of light weight design. I will perhaps make it 4.5 instead of 5.5

The Dry Mass of the Dragon cargo capsule is 4.2 tonnes (source). Add seats and extra internals, additional life and crew support and avionics into that and 5 tonnes doesn't seem far off to me.

I think some people grossly underestimate the capability of the Dragon Rider capsule's projected abilities, also. The real SuperDraco's generate 67kN *each*. Even scaled to 64% for KSP a set of 8 makes 320kN approx. That's pretty fierce. The limnitation on the Dragon is really the fuel capacity above anything else IMHO.

Edited by MDBenson
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rosenkranz

rosenkranz

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The Dry Mass of the Dragon cargo capsule is 4.2 tonnes (source). Add seats and extra internals, additional life and crew support and avionics into that and 5 tonnes doesn't seem far off to me.

I think some people grossly underestimate the capability of the Dragon Rider capsule's projected abilities, also. The real SuperDraco's generate 67kN *each*. Even scaled to 64% for KSP a set of 8 makes 320kN approx. That's pretty fierce. The limnitation on the Dragon is really the fuel capacity above anything else IMHO.

I've been playing around with the numbers as well. Bumping the dry mass up to 4.2t (from 2.5t) was no hardship at all. That pushed the TWR and dV down a little bit. Bumping that up a little for lifesupport and internals might not be bad. Though if you use Ioncross's LS there is already the added weight of the O2 now on board. I've not messed with the RCS fuel. 2000 units of Mono is like 8t which is a balancing act right there. Lower it and the TWR goes up while the dV goes down.

For the engines, cBBp has the thrust pegged at 400Kn which is actually less than RL as 8 SuperDracos at 67Kn each would yield 536Kn. On the other hand if you think of the first 2.5t as the pod and the rest (1.7t) as the engine block 400Kn for 1.7t is pretty darn good (but not really OP) so I've left that alone.

Something to keep in mind though. Per the spacex videos isn't this suppose to be able to ssto from Mars? Or am I misremembering? To ssto from duna is at least 1500dV plus a few hundred more for meeting up with the transfer stage still in orbit. If it's not, I'd think about lowering the mono capacity until it pegs at just under what it takes to get to Mun (like 800dV) or so. (just looked at R4 but i've no idea how much dV 500 mono translates into).

Anyway, just some thoughts :)

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Free Trader Beowulf

Free Trader Beowulf

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Posted
Something to keep in mind though. Per the spacex videos isn't this suppose to be able to ssto from Mars? Or am I misremembering? To ssto from duna is at least 1500dV plus a few hundred more for meeting up with the transfer stage still in orbit. If it's not, I'd think about lowering the mono capacity until it pegs at just under what it takes to get to Mun (like 800dV) or so. (just looked at R4 but i've no idea how much dV 500 mono translates into).

Not exactly. The proposed Red Dragon is a version modified to act as a robot lander. It would carry no crew and have no ability to relaunch as faras I can find out. I think they'll end up removing at least some of the SuperDracos if the Red Dragon ever does get built, it can pull five gees which is a lot more than it needs to for a Mars landing. The dragon Rider has very impressive acceleration, but less impressive delta V.

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Free Trader Beowulf

Free Trader Beowulf

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The Dry Mass of the Dragon cargo capsule is 4.2 tonnes (source). Add seats and extra internals, additional life and crew support and avionics into that and 5 tonnes doesn't seem far off to me.

I think some people grossly underestimate the capability of the Dragon Rider capsule's projected abilities, also. The real SuperDraco's generate 67kN *each*. Even scaled to 64% for KSP a set of 8 makes 320kN approx. That's pretty fierce. The limnitation on the Dragon is really the fuel capacity above anything else IMHO.

The cargo Dragon doesn't have the Superdraco thrusters either, so they add weight too. I've struggled to find stats for the Dragon Rider, which I guess is fair enough as they're still developing it. 8 tons dry is the only figure I could really find, but on internet forums so take that with a pinch of salt. The Superdracos are awfully powerful little thrusters as you say.

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Big_Ron

Big_Ron

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Posted

Height 6.1 meters (20 feet)

Diameter 3.7 meters (12.1 feet)

Sidewall angle 15 degrees

Volume 10 m3 (350 cu ft) pressurized

14 m3 (490 cu ft) unpressurized

34 m3 (1,200 cu ft) unpressurized with extended trunk

Dry mass 4,200 kg (9,300 lb)

Payload to ISS 3,310 kg (7,300 lb), which can be all pressurized, all unpressurized or anywhere in between. It can return to Earth 3,310 kg (7,300 lb), which can be all unpressurized disposal mass or up to 2,500 kg (5,500 lb) of return pressurized cargo

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War Eagle 1

War Eagle 1

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Posted (edited)

Thank you so much for the update. I just landed my first crew on my minmus base.

For your next update though, I would suggest fixing the custom keys to work with the features. Like toggling the gear with the gear button, lights with the lights button ect...

Edited by War Eagle 1
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shadowsutekh

shadowsutekh

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One thing I've noticed from the pod is that in windowed mode, it is impossible to get to some of the right click options on the pod, when just the pod is remaining. Is there any way around that besides action groups? Those work for some of the options, but since they aren't named when you're setting them up, it's basically a "guess which button activates what" kind of situation. Can those be named in the action groups control in the VAB?

Also one thing that might help would work by having the landing gear for the pod tied to the G key without having a right click option for it, reducing the number of things that show up.

Hopefully those are things are helpful!

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CardBoardBoxProcessor

CardBoardBoxProcessor

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One thing I've noticed from the pod is that in windowed mode, it is impossible to get to some of the right click options on the pod, when just the pod is remaining. Is there any way around that besides action groups? Those work for some of the options, but since they aren't named when you're setting them up, it's basically a "guess which button activates what" kind of situation. Can those be named in the action groups control in the VAB?

Also one thing that might help would work by having the landing gear for the pod tied to the G key without having a right click option for it, reducing the number of things that show up.

Hopefully those are things are helpful!

yeah i really need to make those into landing gear. As for the animation list. I am not sure. it is kind of a DEV issue. since i don;t program the game or have any control over it unfortunately.

it would be nice if I could get the lights to play nice with my lights. :( but another DEV issue.

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  • 3 weeks later...
CardBoardBoxProcessor

CardBoardBoxProcessor

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hey guys slight update. still been thinking about this things IVA scene. big_don wants to do the texturing for it. but I need inspiration of what all should be inside it still. images and stuff. as it is a side project I cannot spend alot of time thinking aobut it. any references and stuff you would like to see or sketches of what would look good idnside would be great.

Once I have a good idea of the general consensus of the want for the IVA scene i will model the last bits and ship it out for Big_don to texture. Or I might just do it by then. lol

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Big_Ron

Big_Ron

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Lol......cbbp. You made me laugh......Its Big Ron...lol.....I will get more stuff over to you....I also have been a bit busy at work. I didn't think we wanted to be to cluttered. Some nice LED lights a control panel and some odds and ends....I will shoot more pic over to ya and I will see if I can sketch something for you....

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CardBoardBoxProcessor

CardBoardBoxProcessor

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Lol......cbbp. You made me laugh......Its Big Ron...lol.....I will get more stuff over to you....I also have been a bit busy at work. I didn't think we wanted to be to cluttered. Some nice LED lights a control panel and some odds and ends....I will shoot more pic over to ya and I will see if I can sketch something for you....

oh thanks.No worries lord knows I have been a good bit busy as well.

I fund out part tools will allot me to place the props manually and nicely so I might make a more unique control console. But we will see. I replaced the seats with some newer Orion style seats i had made for something else. and I want to change the Seating Support bracket and piston set.

but other than that i am not sure. I added the open life support system. It looks pretty cool. I feel like it sohudl have supply old somewhere. but it could possibly be jsut a people carrier.

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