Is it Possible to have an SSTO landed and come back to a 100km orbit from EVE?

[Climberfx]

I have the STAR series, i love it. The most functional, efficient and effective i have. Here the links for then...

I put here in birth order, but the TURBO series and the Supreme are the best at the moment.

I'm doing a mission to Laythe with Supreme, recording it at the moment. Already did one with STAR ICE (normal size). They use Mechjeb, some have a stock version, but use it at your own risk.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/25679-0-19-1-STAR-STAR-Junior-STAR-Baby-Rocket-SSTO

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/26060-0-19-1-STAR-ICE-Junior-With-and-without-Payload

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/26502-0-19-1-STAR-series-Turbo-Upgrade-more-effective-and-efficient%21-double-intakes

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/26542-0-19-1-STAR-Supreme-The-big-Mama-of-STAR-series-SSTO-VTOL-Orbiter

But be aware that they are created to orbit maneuvers, some can do interplanetary, docking all then can, and transfer to any part of Kerbin, bud don't try to use it ass and plane.

It's to unstable for that.

[Stelith61]

I'm fine. I'll eventually build one myself, I just wanna focus on finally doing manned Jool or Gilly missions first. Maybe Eve-Surface return....

[Climberfx]

Jool you only will go to get orbit. No land on giant gas.

But if you do Eve, almost every other will be easier. Exception Tylo...

[Stelith61]

Jool you only will go to get orbit. No land on giant gas.

But if you do Eve, almost every other will be easier. Exception Tylo...

I know that! I mean the Joolian System. Probably Joint Vall/Laythe. Bah! Off topic.

I've tried as much as I can to make a ship that has 12km/s in a single stage, but Kerbal Engineer says I keep failing if i keep the Eve twr even just at 1-1, let alone an optimal 1.6-1

[Climberfx]

I think this will continue "impossible", until they put some good new stuff on a forthcoming updates, and a blessed soul made the unreal, tangible...

[foamyesque]

I know that! I mean the Joolian System. Probably Joint Vall/Laythe. Bah! Off topic.

I've tried as much as I can to make a ship that has 12km/s in a single stage, but Kerbal Engineer says I keep failing if i keep the Eve twr even just at 1-1, let alone an optimal 1.6-1

You won't be able to hit 12km/s in a single stage with any of the stock parts excepting the LV-N and the ion engine; the mass ratio of the fuel tanks alone prohibits it. The LV-N is obviously impractical on Eve, and ion engines have their own challenges.

[lump]

You won't be able to hit 12km/s in a single stage with any of the stock parts excepting the LV-N and the ion engine; the mass ratio of the fuel tanks alone prohibits it. The LV-N is obviously impractical on Eve, and ion engines have their own challenges.

my best rocket SSTO has enough fuel to escape Kerbol, but that is only like 8000m/s delta-V and its on kerbin, I'm not saying this is impossible in any way as the SSTO field always brings up new surprises, I'm just saying, with all the work needed to get it to work, it's gonna be hard, i'll still try though

Edit: i'm judgin mine by whether it has a TWR of 1.7 or over and whether it can get into at least a 400k orbit aroun kerbin, i have one contendender right now but i need to get it to Eve to test (dev menu, full steam ahead)

Edit2:i hate eve, my ship got like 3000m, its has 15000L of fuel, whhyyy?

Edited April 29, 2013 by lump

[Stelith61]

I reckon we can now just call this myth busted.

It's near impossible with current stock parts, if not completely un-doable.

[Francesco]

yup.

thanks to Google Cache I've found this chart, posted some time ago before the forum shutdown: it clearly shows what foamyesque is saying.

[lump]

i dont think that chart says much i ways of engine switching, i'm not disagreeing with you but that graph is no way to base your argument, say if you had eighty percent fuel ad burned fifty percent with a areospike ad the last twenty with a nuclear engine

[Francesco]

i dont think that chart says much i ways of engine switching, i'm not disagreeing with you but that graph is no way to base your argument, say if you had eighty percent fuel ad burned fifty percent with a areospike ad the last twenty with a nuclear engine

that graph is meant to show that it's impossible to build an Eve SSTO with more than ~8500 m/s of delta-v.

edit: I agree that by combining, say, aerospikes with LV-N's (which you would switch on later during the flight) you could in theory achieve a higher delta-v, but you would also have to carry them as dead weight (because of their low sea level ISP) for quite a long time during the launch.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Francesco

[lump]

that graph is meant to show that it's impossible to build an Eve SSTO with more than ~8500 m/s of delta-v.

edit: I agree that by combining, say, aerospikes with LV-N's (which you would switch on later during the flight) you could in theory achieve a higher delta-v, but you would also have to carry them as dead weight (because of their low sea level ISP) for quite a long time during the launch.

i know what you mean, when i design SSTOs there is a drop off point for the nuclear engines, the more you have the earlier you can fire them but if you have too much you lose delta -V to dead weight, one thing i do think may help are wings though as the do just act as light weight engines in atmosphere, meaning you can use less rockets to get the same lift.

[Jason Patterson]

Climber, did you try this at all? All I can see in this thread is you suggesting that other people try X, Y, and Z, but no actual attempts from you.

Jool you only will go to get orbit. No land on giant gas.

But if you do Eve, almost every other will be easier. Exception Tylo...

Tylo is cake compared to Eve, there's really no comparison. It's hard, sure, but Eve is absurd.

[lump]

Climber, did you try this at all? All I can see in this thread is you suggesting that other people try X, Y, and Z, but no actual attempts from you.

Tylo is cake compared to Eve, there's really no comparison. It's hard, sure, but Eve is absurd.

I don't really like the idea f you MUST try it yourself, maybe on the fun challenges you may want to but on this kind off challenge it feels like a group effort, and it's kind off fun having a good design on kerbin and watching it fail on eve / badly.

I'll keep on trying for now as i find it kinda fun trying solutions to these problems.

[Jason Patterson]

I don't really like the idea f you MUST try it yourself, maybe on the fun challenges you may want to but on this kind off challenge it feels like a group effort, and it's kind off fun having a good design on kerbin and watching it fail on eve / badly.

I'll keep on trying for now as i find it kinda fun trying solutions to these problems.

That's the point though; if you're not even willing to make an attempt at it, why clutter the forum with threads asking others to do all of the work for you? I'm not saying that the OP has to actually succeed, but heck, there's no evidence here that he or she ever even landed a boat on Eve, let alone tried to get back to orbit, SSTO or otherwise - it's all backseat driving.

[Stochasty]

I've finally managed to be successful building an Eve-ascent capable spaceplane using FAR. It's a three stage design with just under 8km/s delta-v, and from near sea level I can get back to orbit with several hundred m/s left in the tank. The first stage is the winged stage, with around 2.5 km/s delta-v and a takeoff TWR (on Eve) of about .8 using two aerospikes and one LV-45 for thrust. The second stage is a normal rocket; it sheds the wings and the aerospikes and uses only the LV-45. It has around 2.8km/s delta-v and has a TWR of about 0.9 at stage separation (high enough that speed doesn't drop off much thanks to the reduced drag, and fuel burns quickly enough that I'm beyond 1 TWR soon enough). The last stage uses an LV-909 to finish off the orbit.

Taking off from 6 km altitude should save at least 1km/s delta-v, which puts this in the realm of just possibly doable as an SSTO.

[Climberfx]

I've finally managed to be successful building an Eve-ascent capable spaceplane using FAR. It's a three stage design with just under 8km/s delta-v, and from near sea level I can get back to orbit with several hundred m/s left in the tank. The first stage is the winged stage, with around 2.5 km/s delta-v and a takeoff TWR (on Eve) of about .8 using two aerospikes and one LV-45 for thrust. The second stage is a normal rocket; it sheds the wings and the aerospikes and uses only the LV-45. It has around 2.8km/s delta-v and has a TWR of about 0.9 at stage separation (high enough that speed doesn't drop off much thanks to the reduced drag, and fuel burns quickly enough that I'm beyond 1 TWR soon enough). The last stage uses an LV-909 to finish off the orbit.

Taking off from 6 km altitude should save at least 1km/s delta-v, which puts this in the realm of just possibly doable as an SSTO.

Show us this plane, some pics, and keep trying!

[tavert]

Breaks down completely without FAR I assume?

And what's the takeoff mass? Inquiring minds and all...

Edited April 30, 2013 by tavert

[Stochasty]

Show us this plane, some pics, and keep trying!

Testing on Eve was done using HyperEdit to save time, but I didn't bother to take screenshots during the test run. I'm in the process of doing the mission for real. Don't have any pictures on Eve yet, but here are a couple her in Kerbin orbit:

In a 100km by 100km parking orbit. Without staging she's Kerbin SSTO capable, so she just launches herself.

Docked to the tug for refueling and preparing for the transfer orbit.

I'll add more once I finish the mission.

Edit:

Breaks down completely without FAR I assume?

She flies without FAR, just not as well. She's even SSTO capable on Kerbin in Stock (barely; I have to shift the fuel from the third stage back to the second to finish off the orbit), but FAR's drag model makes the Eve ascent much, much easier. Although, with 8km/s delta-v, it's within the realm of possibility that I could make it to orbit from the 6km peak even in stock. I'd want to tweak the design a bit, (remove nose cones, etc.) though.

The original project was to do this in stock. I've got an idea for tweaking the design to add drop tanks which should get me up to around 10km/s delta-v, which makes the stock ascent much more plausible.

Her takeoff mass as she stands is 46 tons.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Stochasty

[tavert]

Testing on Eve was done using HyperEdit to save time, but I didn't bother to take screenshots during the test run. I'm in the process of doing the mission for real. Don't have any pictures on Eve yet, but here are a couple her in Kerbin orbit:

In a 100km by 100km parking orbit. Without staging she's Kerbin SSTO capable, so she just launches herself.

Docked to the tug for refueling and preparing for the transfer orbit.

I'll add more once I finish the mission.

Ooh, gorgeous! Nicely done.

[dimovski]

I think its only possible with either NP or KW R, the aerospike from NP should acctually do the job pretty well I think...except I suck at planes

[Climberfx]

I like that too. I never use the FAR plugin yet. But some day.

I imagine that is hard to take off it. The best Plane SSTO Rocket only i have, i use a decoupler to control how it consumes the Fuel, without the need to transfer fuel after.

Look...

And i use the LV 30, give me more TWR and Weight dV ratio. (better comparable to LV 45 and aerospike, im practice)

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/24884-0-19-1-Albatroz-Rocket-Plane-SSTO-image-heavy

Edited April 30, 2013 by Climberfx

[Stochasty]

Surprisingly easy to fly, actually; much easier than some of my previous attempts. She's near perfectly balanced, and the fuel lines are set up so that center of mass shifts as little as possible during flight. The hardest part is the dead stick landing on Eve; need to find a reasonably flat area or the bumps will cause havoc. Also have to be careful about reentry; too steep and she'll tear herself apart before she can slow down.

One trick that I use a lot in FAR is reducing thrust to keep my speed at around Mach 0.75 while I'm in the thick part of the atmosphere. After a certain point you start to lose lift (around 10km on Kerbin), which is when I know to transistion from plane-like flight towards rocket-like flight. At this point I push to full throttle to break through the Mach barrier is quickly as possible, and after that I rely less on wings and more on thrust like you would for a standard rocket.

As for using an LV-30 versus an LV-45: this is actually an interesting question. While still within the lower atmosphere, you are primarily drag limited, not weight limited, so the poorer TWR performance of the LV-45 doesn't really hurt all that much; however, by the top part of the second-stage burn, the atmosphere is thin enough that I'm well into my acceleration towards orbital velocity, so for that part of the flight it definitely hurts. However, I'm using the gimbals on the engine to avoid the need for control surfaces on the second stage, which I think is actually a bigger benefit than I lose in the slightly worse engine performance.

[Climberfx]

For the control, you still have the Giroscope of ASAS or cockpit, with you fly mine Albatroz, you will see it still have control on space because that. The RCS i use only for docking. No need for gin ball when the craft is well balanced. Really. And in some critical configurations, a .25 ton (difference in weight from a 45 to a 30) is enough to lose goods dv. And Eve is that critical.

The thing i wanna to show you on that plane, is that when you put a decoupler between the engine and the tank, you can pipe the fuel from the center tank, then the engine will use the fuel toward the center of mass...

But, nice Plane you have here, maybe son we reach the goal of SSTO from Eve!

I'm backing up to try the FAR! Wish me good luck!

Edited April 30, 2013 by Climberfx

[Francesco]

i know what you mean, when i design SSTOs there is a drop off point for the nuclear engines, the more you have the earlier you can fire them but if you have too much you lose delta -V to dead weight, one thing i do think may help are wings though as the do just act as light weight engines in atmosphere, meaning you can use less rockets to get the same lift.

yeah, the cool thing about Kerbin is that you can turn on LV-Ns pretty much right away: at 1km, their ISP is already ~330 (versus 220 at sea level), so it's on par with the other engines, and therefore they cease to be dead weight just a bit after takeoff.

sadly, on eve we can't take advantage of this. :/

but I'm curious, is there actually an advantage on using wings to generate lift on Eve?

I'm talking stock parts, without FAR.