[0.20] Ioncross Crew Support Plugin ([0.22] dev build)

[Starwaster]

I'm pretty sure it does scale... I was using large 'gigantors' to propel an ion-driven probe. At Kerbin orbit, it was -fine.- At Jool orbit, it produced so little power that it couldn't run the engine.

Aside- here's an idea. How efficient is electrolysis? Might -that- be an option for extremely compact oxygen storage? I don't know about it so.

https://www.asme.org/engineering-topics/articles/aerospace-defense/making-space-safer-with-electrolysis like that thing.

You mean, carry water with you and then split the water for the oxygen?

No, bad move. Water does not compress very well... I did the math once. Both H2 and O2 condense very well when liquefied, but once they combine into water, the required storage volume goes up significantly. I forget by how much but it was something like a few hundred kiloliters (m3) of storage that you lose. It's better to keep them separate as cryogenic gasses. That and you can use the gasses in fuel cells and drink the 'exhaust'.

Hi, i have a few questions about this mod.

First should i reduce my co2 levels to 0 or always keep some around so the recyclers work at full capacity?

If i start getting high co2 levels or low o2 levels, is there anyway to be warned or do i need to regularly check up on my ships and bases?

Last what is the best way to have a auto sufficient base or station so i dont need to keep refuelling o2?

If you have a recycler don't turn scrubbers on at all. Also, get the TAC fuel balancer. You can set it to automatically suck CO2 out of every part of the ship and deposit it in the recycler. I'm not sure we get warnings or not... I would swear I saw one once but I might have imagined it. Also, if the ship/station is NOT active and you're far away from it then the lifesupport mod stops processing O2 consumption and CO2 generation.The guy who's working on it said that he'd like to change that and that you'd get warning if a ship that's not in focus needed attention.

Also, you can put an air intake (look in Utilities) on the ship and it will suck in O2 or CO2 depending on the planet. Eve is CO2 I think. The intake works best if the ship is moving fast through atmo so re-entry is a good time to turn it on.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Starwaster

[jrandom]

While running on timewarp some more I noticed that every hour, the time warp would stop and my orbit would be altered, sometimes drastically, regardless of whether one of my Kerbins died that hour from too much CO2.

I can't speak for the orbit change since I've never seen it happen (probably did but I wasn't paying attention). As for the time-warp stopping, IonCross drops you out of time warp when your life support recourses are in a critical state. I thought I was going mad (or that KSP was broken) when it started happening to me. Then I went back, read the documentation, and realized I had forgotten to activate the recyclers. Sure enough, CO2 poisoning.

[danw13335]

It's a KSP bug not an Ioncross bug. Adding or moving resources around can cause the ship to shift. It should NOT be doing that since no mass actually left the ship so it couldn't accrue any deltaV.

(in fact it can happen in stock too. Move fuel from one tank to another and you can move your ship)

Really? The change occurs instantly, not over time. Every hour as soon as the game comes out of warp, my orbit suddenly changes. There's no resources being moved, added, or removed at all.

I can't speak for the orbit change since I've never seen it happen (probably did but I wasn't paying attention). As for the time-warp stopping, IonCross drops you out of time warp when your life support recourses are in a critical state. I thought I was going mad (or that KSP was broken) when it started happening to me. Then I went back, read the documentation, and realized I had forgotten to activate the recyclers. Sure enough, CO2 poisoning.

Yeah I know the warp-stopping is supposed to happen, it's the orbit changing that's the problem.

[katateochi]

Hi, just started using this mod and I really like it. Adds a new element of design and challenge.

I've found an odd issue and when searching this thread I couldn't find a mention of it. I was attempting to deliver a life support module to a base, just the large recycler and a large oxygen tank as a single unit. I was planning to just plonk it on the ground next to the base and connect it up using the KAS mod. However when I winched the module out of the delivery craft and lowered it onto the ground it just sunk into the terrain! I thought that maybe it was a KAS related problem so I did some tests. I made a small craft with stock parts that just held the life support module under it, when I decoupled the life support module it sunk into the ground. I did this test at KSC and on the Mun with the same result. I then replaced the life support module with two standard fuel tanks and did the same drop action and those rested on the ground just fine.

So there seems to be an issue with these parts not being able to be placed on the terrain.

The other odd thing I noticed, not sure if this is intended function was that when I hit critical CO2 levels and a kerbal 'died' he just reappeared back in the available crew at KSC. Didn't actually seem to die, just got teleported home. I was expecting a more permanent death (not that I'm bloodthirsty or anything).

Anyway, just thought I'd mention those two. I really like this mod and what you've done with it, very cool stuff!!

[Starwaster]

Really? The change occurs instantly, not over time. Every hour as soon as the game comes out of warp, my orbit suddenly changes. There's no resources being moved, added, or removed at all.

Yeah I know the warp-stopping is supposed to happen, it's the orbit changing that's the problem.

O2 and CO2 are resources. They have mass and one is subtracted as the other is added. And when you are in warp, unless you specified physical warp then you're non phy until you warp back in.

The other odd thing I noticed, not sure if this is intended function was that when I hit critical CO2 levels and a kerbal 'died' he just reappeared back in the available crew at KSC. Didn't actually seem to die, just got teleported home. I was expecting a more permanent death (not that I'm bloodthirsty or anything).

It's up to KSP whether or not permadeath is enabled. I don't think that stock KSP exposes any configurable settings for that but the persistent save file does have an entry that controls permadeath. It can be edited using the Crew Manifest mod. (which is still a must even with the astronaut center addition in .21 if you want to transfer kerbals to other ship parts)

Edit: In the save file there's the following:

		DIFFICULTY
		{
			MissingCrewsRespawn = True
		}

Edited August 11, 2013 by Starwaster

[wso277]

If you have a recycler don't turn scrubbers on at all. Also, get the TAC fuel balancer. You can set it to automatically suck CO2 out of every part of the ship and deposit it in the recycler. I'm not sure we get warnings or not... I would swear I saw one once but I might have imagined it. Also, if the ship/station is NOT active and you're far away from it then the lifesupport mod stops processing O2 consumption and CO2 generation.The guy who's working on it said that he'd like to change that and that you'd get warning if a ship that's not in focus needed attention.

Also, you can put an air intake (look in Utilities) on the ship and it will suck in O2 or CO2 depending on the planet. Eve is CO2 I think. The intake works best if the ship is moving fast through atmo so re-entry is a good time to turn it on.

thanks, at least i know the kerbals shouldn't die if i'm not at the ship.

The mod seems to be working fine, but i downloaded that greenhouse someone posted 1 or 2 pages behind and it doesnt show up in my game. I put it together with the other ioncross parts

[katateochi]

*snip

It's up to KSP whether or not permadeath is enabled. I don't think that stock KSP exposes any configurable settings for that but the persistent save file does have an entry that controls permadeath. It can be edited using the Crew Manifest mod. (which is still a must even with the astronaut center addition in .21 if you want to transfer kerbals to other ship parts)

*snip

Cheers man. Yeah I use CrewManifest for crew transfers so I'll enable permadeath on that.

[danw13335]

O2 and CO2 are resources. They have mass and one is subtracted as the other is added. And when you are in warp, unless you specified physical warp then you're non phy until you warp back in.

I know, I understand that. Maybe I wasn't clear. The change doesn't occur when I am in nonphyswarp and manually go back into normal time. It literally only occurs when the mod takes me out of warp. If you're right, then it shouldn't matter whether I manually take my ship out of warp or whether the mod does.

Edited August 11, 2013 by danw13335

[SkyHook]

I am not sure if I am doing this correctly, but how exactly do CO2 scrubbers in pods work? They do not seem to work for me. What re the conditions under which they are operational?

[jrandom]

CO2 scrubbers will permanently remove CO2, so you only want to activate them if you're not including a recycler. This is good for Kerbin-system missions (orbit, Mun, Minmus) where you only want to add oxygen tanks. To use the scrubber, simply right-click on the command pod and select 'Activate Scrubber'.

[Tw1]

The other odd thing I noticed, not sure if this is intended function was that when I hit critical CO2 levels and a kerbal 'died' he just reappeared back in the available crew at KSC. Didn't actually seem to die, just got teleported home. I was expecting a more permanent death (not that I'm bloodthirsty or anything).

I've noticed that they don't show up dead in the flight log either. Perhaps this could be fixed, in an update.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Tw1

[BoZo]

So I was drinking some beer and figured I should add food and water to this mod for my own use; if any one wants the same you can get the modded mod here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/leuje1oyyirqyo0/IoncrossCrewSupportManpEdition1.2.zip

[TaranisElsu]

So I just installed this mod and send a Kerbal X capsule into orbit to play around with it. I timewarped, watched my CO2 fill up, and then an hour later the timewarp stopped and one of the crew died. Perfectly normal, except my orbit changed - before it was circularized to 240km (so I could time warp), but after one of the crew died it was something like a periapsis of 190 and an apoapsis of 270. While running on timewarp some more I noticed that every hour, the time warp would stop and my orbit would be altered, sometimes drastically, regardless of whether one of my Kerbins died that hour from too much CO2. ...

It's a KSP bug not an Ioncross bug. Adding or moving resources around can cause the ship to shift. It should NOT be doing that since no mass actually left the ship so it couldn't accrue any deltaV. ...

... As for the time-warp stopping, IonCross drops you out of time warp when your life support recourses are in a critical state. ...

Really? The change occurs instantly, not over time. Every hour as soon as the game comes out of warp, my orbit suddenly changes. There's no resources being moved, added, or removed at all.

Yeah I know the warp-stopping is supposed to happen, it's the orbit changing that's the problem.

O2 and CO2 are resources. They have mass and one is subtracted as the other is added. And when you are in warp, unless you specified physical warp then you're non phy until you warp back in.

...

I know, I understand that. Maybe I wasn't clear. The change doesn't occur when I am in nonphyswarp and manually go back into normal time. It literally only occurs when the mod takes me out of warp. If you're right, then it shouldn't matter whether I manually take my ship out of warp or whether the mod does.

It is a KSP bug, but not the one Starwaster mentioned. It has to do with suddenly dropping out of time warp.

As discussed in these links:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/24786-0-21-Kerbal-Alarm-Clock-v2-5-0-0-%28July-27%29?p=489342&viewfull=1#post489342

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/38130-Velocity-vector-changed-when-exiting-time-warp

The issue has to do with calling TimeWarp.SetRate(0, true); to instantly drop out of time warp. You will notice that both MechJeb and the Kerbal Alarm Clock gradually drop you back down to 1x time. That is to avoid this issue. Unfortunately, that is the only way around it that I know of. You will need to know when you want to be back to 1x, and start gradually dropping out of time warp in advance.

You do not run into this issue when manually controlling warp because you cannot hit the keys fast enough to cause the bug.

Edited August 14, 2013 by TaranisElsu

[Vedexent]

First of all - this is a great mod. I especially appreciate how it's really a generic resource framework, and not just some hard coded resources.

However - I'm having some interesting "issues" regarding how the Mod treats Carbon Dioxide.

---

Background: I've been trying to develop a hydroponics/aeroponics bay part. To that end, I:

• Created two additional pair of of custom resources: Food,Waste,Water, and WasteWater, in the \Resources\IonCrewSupport.cfg
  
• Added these resource in the \Plugins\PluginData\IoncrossCrewSupport\IoncrossCrewSupport.cfg file, as ION_SUPPORT_KERBAL_RESOURCE, with consumption rates (1 Kerbal consumes 1 unit of Food and Water, and produced 1 Unit of WasteWater and Waste, per day or 1/85600 per second).
  
• Copied a small inline RCS tank model under a new name, and added new resources storage capabilities to it.
  
• Copied a large inline tank model, and gave it a new name
  
• Created a file for ModuleManager in the Mod's root folder (with all the others), for the new large inline tank name (Hydroponics Bay) adding an IonModuleGenerator MODULE to the part, specifying INPUT_RESOURCE and OUTPUT_RESOURCE entries in the MODULE block. Waste, WasteWater, CarbonDioxide, and a lot of power go in - Food,Oxygen, and Water come out. Rates are ~10% higher than 1 Kerbal will produce. All resources are required for conversion. This means that the hydroponics bay's output may fluctuate up and down a bit as it runs out of waste to convert, but overall the hydroponics bay works to keep one Kerbal alive.
  

This worked quite well for Food/Waste and Water/WasteWater. Under 100K time acceleration, rounding errors would cause resources to "leak" out of the system, but that seemed to add a bit more realism; a small closed life support system wouldn't be perfect, and it took hundreds of days to draw down resources significantly, so deep space missions were still practical.

However, carbon dioxide acted weird. Whenever I would come out of time warp, carbon dioxide would suddenly and very quickly deplete. Oxygen was maxed out, so it looks like there was very rapid O2 conversion going on, and I hadn't added a recycle converter.

I went into \Plugins\PluginData\IoncrossCrewSupport\IoncrossCrewSupport.cfg and removed the built-in Carbon Dioxide scrubber in ION_SUPPORT_POD_GENERATOR. No change. Carbon dioxide would still disappear rapidly, coming out of warp.

Thinking that there was some sort of "hard coded" treatment of CarbonDioxide/Oxygen going on, I created a new pair of resources O2/CO2 and defined them like I had Food/Waste - using the consumption rates built in for Oxygen/CarbonDioxide.

I then removed the entries for Oxygen and CarbonDioxide from \Resources\IonCrewSupport.cfg and \Plugins\PluginData\IoncrossCrewSupport\IoncrossCrewSupport.cfg. AFAIK, this should have removed it as a resource, and removed any "resource check" from the life support system.

I also then altered both my edited "resource tank" and "hydroponics bay" to use O2/CO2 in place of Oxygen/Carbon dioxide.

This worked OK - CO2 did not spontaneously convert like CarbonDioxide had, and O2 behave inversely to CO2.

However, the game still dropped out of warp every hour, and eventually the Kerbal pilot died, just as if the Mod was still checking for oxygen and carbonDioxide, which I removed from \Plugins\PluginData\IoncrossCrewSupport\IoncrossCrewSupport.cfg.

---

So - does anyone have any ideas what is happening? It almost looks like there's some hardcoding going on with Oxygen/CarbonDioxide.

Or, am I missing a crucial configuration file somewhere?

[Spyritdragon]

I've done the same, adding food, water and UsedWater as resources, only on a slightly crude level, but i believe it is working in my version. It's still in a very early stage though and some resources are still being used in reverse, but once i perfect it i'll upload it here i guess :-).

[MainSailor]

A quick question...is there a way to add a resource that isn't required by a Kerbal? For example, say I want to add a custom resource, we'll say Jello. Kerbals don't require Jello, but can consume it anyhow. I'd have a container of say, 500 Jello when I launched but when it ran out, Jeb would be bummed but it wouldn't be a big worry. If I was in a good mood I could launch a resupply rocket with more Jello up to the station or whathaveyou, and they'd be happy again.

I ask because I'm thinking about developing some custom consumable resources that wouldn't be required resources for the Kerbals to live, but they'd use, perhaps for different purposes, like using a resource for science experiments, or a resource like film ( that would convert to exposed film or photos over time, which would have to be returned to KSP.) Or hell just give the guys Jello.

[The Lone Wolfling]

A quick question...is there a way to add a resource that isn't required by a Kerbal? For example, say I want to add a custom resource, we'll say Jello. Kerbals don't require Jello, but can consume it anyhow. I'd have a container of say, 500 Jello when I launched but when it ran out, Jeb would be bummed but it wouldn't be a big worry. If I was in a good mood I could launch a resupply rocket with more Jello up to the station or whathaveyou, and they'd be happy again.

I ask because I'm thinking about developing some custom consumable resources that wouldn't be required resources for the Kerbals to live, but they'd use, perhaps for different purposes, like using a resource for science experiments, or a resource like film ( that would convert to exposed film or photos over time, which would have to be returned to KSP.) Or hell just give the guys Jello.

Something like the following should work - it won't actually affect the Kerbal's mood, though.

ION_SUPPORT_KERBAL_RESOURCE
{
	name = Jello
	GUIName = Jello
	ratePerKerbal = 0.000277778

	boolCauseDeath = False
	boolCauseLock = False
}

Notice the boolcausedeath = False / boolcauseLock = false.

Also, don't forget to define the Jello resource elsewhere.

[MainSailor]

Something like the following should work - it won't actually affect the Kerbal's mood, though.

ION_SUPPORT_KERBAL_RESOURCE
{
	name = Jello
	GUIName = Jello
	ratePerKerbal = 0.000277778

	boolCauseDeath = False
	boolCauseLock = False
}

Notice the boolcausedeath = False / boolcauseLock = false.

Also, don't forget to define the Jello resource elsewhere.

Awesome thanks...I didn't know there was a switch to make it cause death.

I know it won't affect the actual facial animation, that's hard coded into KSP, it was more of a joke than anything.

In terms of adding it as a resource, I'm assuming it would be added into ResourcesGeneric.cfg?

[The Lone Wolfling]

Awesome thanks...I didn't know there was a switch to make it cause death.

I know it won't affect the actual facial animation, that's hard coded into KSP, it was more of a joke than anything.

In terms of adding it as a resource, I'm assuming it would be added into ResourcesGeneric.cfg?

No no no no no!

Do not add resources into ResourceGeneric, or IonCrossCrewSupport for that matter! (Well, it "works", as long as only one mod is doing it. As soon as 2 or more are, though, all but one will be overwritten)

Instead make a cfg file inside the Resources folder of whatever mod you're making, name it something with a cfg extension, and drop something along the lines of the following into it:

RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
  name = Jello
  density = 0.0056
  flowMode = ALL_VESSEL
  transfer = PUMP
}

[Starwaster]

No no no no no!

Do not add resources into ResourceGeneric, or IonCrossCrewSupport for that matter! (Well, it "works", as long as only one mod is doing it. As soon as 2 or more are, though, all but one will be overwritten)

Instead make a cfg file inside the Resources folder of whatever mod you're making, name it something with a cfg extension, and drop something along the lines of the following into it:

Not only that, but when the mod gets updated or stock KSP updated, you lose your changes in those files.

That's why I love mod manager so much!

[Starwaster]

I am not sure if I am doing this correctly, but how exactly do CO2 scrubbers in pods work? They do not seem to work for me. What re the conditions under which they are operational?

One caveat about scrubbers: As currently implemented, they're only good enough to slow down CO2 buildup. It's an abstraction really to simulate CO2 scrubbing.

If it were accurately modeled after RL, then a new resource 'CO2Scrubber' or maybe 'Hydroxide' (sodium or lithium, whichever) and then as long as that resource were available in the pod then the scrubber would COMPLETELY eliminate all CO2 until you run out of scrubbers. i.e. all or nothing.

As things are now, unless you have a recycler, you're stuck with the CO2 for most practical purposes. (you could dock up with something that had a recycler and dump it that way though)

Sometime soon when I get around to it I'm going to make alterations on my side so that scrubbers DO require scrubber cartridges and if they have them then they completely remove all co2

[MainSailor]

No no no no no!

Do not add resources into ResourceGeneric, or IonCrossCrewSupport for that matter! (Well, it "works", as long as only one mod is doing it. As soon as 2 or more are, though, all but one will be overwritten)

Instead make a cfg file inside the Resources folder of whatever mod you're making, name it something with a cfg extension, and drop something along the lines of the following into it:

RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
  name = Jello
  density = 0.0056
  flowMode = ALL_VESSEL
  transfer = PUMP
}

Awesome thanks! If I did this would I need a custom .dll or could I just use IonCross with custom resources? I'm not distributing, this is purely for my own enjoyment.

Not only that, but when the mod gets updated or stock KSP updated, you lose your changes in those files.

Yeah good point I didn't think about that. Thanks guys!

[Donziboy2]

Is there a list of efficiency's for all the capsules and the hitchhiker vs the stand alone life support systems?

[Donziboy2]

On another note, I have 4 kerbals on Duna, with 2 hitchhiker cans and 2 alge recyclers and an intake yet i can never get my oxygen to increase it always goes down...

[Starwaster]

I am not sure if I am doing this correctly, but how exactly do CO2 scrubbers in pods work? They do not seem to work for me. What re the conditions under which they are operational?

On another note, I have 4 kerbals on Duna, with 2 hitchhiker cans and 2 alge recyclers and an intake yet i can never get my oxygen to increase it always goes down...

Did you make sure to activate all those parts? The intake needs activating or opening or something. I forget which exactly....

Also, don't turn on the CO2 scrubber since you want to send the CO2 to the recycler..... and I think the recycler needs activating too. And is that the little one or the big one? Neither one operates at 100% efficiency, there is loss. The big one is something like 75% and the little one quite a bit less.....