[Stock 0.19.1] Lossless three-ton fun to Laythe

[KwirkyJ]

Using only the provided craft to launch, it is up to you to build a Laythe mission where roughly only three (3) tonnes of payload go to space at a time. Test your planning, your piloting, and your patience! Also prizes!

[spoiler = "Goals"]

• Send manned base to Laythe assembled from small payloads not exceeding roughly three tonnes. (Limit enforced only by the launch vehicles.)
  
• No material (excepting propellant) is to be discarded. That means SSTO, and penalties if something breaks.
  
• The vehicle is to be assembled into one unit in low Kerbin orbit and flown to Jool space.
  
• The mission must include at a minimum :
  
  • Two orbital satellites to keep vigil over the moon
    
  • Two small landers for base site exploration
    
  • Four Kerbals
    
  • One manned lander to serve as the base with a minimum crew of three.
    
  • One rover for surface exploration by Kerbals
    
  • NOTE: some components can serve double purpose. For instance, your base is mobile; one of your exploratory landers is a rover that can also carry crew; etc.
    

• You must use the provided craft as the means for lifting your payload. They have been verified to function within the constraints of orbital ceiling, payload, and reentry. Craft info and downloads at bottom of post.
  
• There can be no modification to the lift vehicle aside from struts, your payload, and a means of detaching your payload (Docking Node or Stage Separator).
  
• The mission vehicle is not to exceed 150km of altitude prior to departing Kerbin. (vehicles ferrying up cargo are not bound to this ceiling).
  
• Any part the breaks off in a manner that would be 'unrecoverable' (e.g., flung off into an awkward orbit, crashes into the groud, splashes down too hard and is destroyed, etc.) is to be reported. Any loss of Kerbal life is to be reported.
  
  • Addendum to the above, general rule applies to vehicle assembly. Discarding of spent fuel tanks, etc, is allowed following the departure of Kerbin SOI. Hardcore rules mandates you shed no parts at all.

  [*] Only stock parts allowed. (Excepting necessary components for control or information mods permitted below.)

  [*] Use of mods and and Debug Console are not allowed, excepting :

  • MechJeb or similar flight control / information mods
    
  • Subassembley Loader for (supposed) ease of putting payloads onto the lifters.

  [*] This challenge is on the honor system. Please don't claim you did something when you didn't.

  [*] Depending on how impressed I am with the execution of this challenge, I might reward your efforts with a prize, the exact nature of which to be negotiated if and when the situation arises.

[spoiler = "Notes on Rules"]

• These lifters are all crossfeed. To lift fuel or RCS without them being used by the launch vehicle, right-click on the tank(s) and toggle the green arrow at the right end of the resource bar. This will prevent resource consumption. (click the resulting slash-circle to re-enable resource consumption.)
  
• Burning off of "needless" resources at the launch pad to allow for a heavier payload is perfectly acceptable. Just be sure that you don't actually need that RCS or LiquidFuel after all....
  
• Please don't extend the launch vehicles with another massive launch stage and call it 'payload.' Yes, the rules don't exactly say it's disallowed, but it's just not cool. Not cool, bro.
  

[spoiler = "Accolades (and other badges)"]

• Breathing Is For Wimps - Use only the GORP3xS.
  
• Gives You Wiiiings - Use only the CATA3t.
  
• I Like Crazy - Use only the GORPx3AMS II.
  

• Flawless Record - Lose no parts to accidents or attrition.
  
• Harbormaster - For over a thrid of your launches, rendezvous with the mission vessel within two orbits from launch. (Rendezvous in one orbit with the GORPx3S.) (For this award, rendezvous is considered being within 1km of your target and relative velocity less than 20m/s.)
  
• No Takesies-Backsies - Never restart a flight.
  
• To The Bitter End - Never end a flight that is not static on the ground or splashed down.
  

• Keep Your Friends Close - Assemble your mission vehicle in an orbit below 75km.
  
• Keep Your Enemies Closer - Prior to departure for Laythe, never exceed 75km.
  

• Never Have I Ever - At least one flight, from launch to assembley, use no mod.
  
• Extra Virgin - Use no mods.
  

• We Have Assurances It Is Round - Put at least one orbital probe into polar Laythe orbit.
  
• Call Me Nanook - Land a base at one of Laythe's poles.
  

• The More the Merrier - Send more than two orbital probes. (Please report how many.)
  
• We Were Told To Comb The Desert - Send more than two explatorary landers.
  
• Department Of Moving Vehicles - Send more than one pilotable (can carry a Kerbal) rover.
  
• The Space Party - Send more than one crewed base.
  

• What Is This Drag You Speak Of? - Land your Laythe base using no parachutes.
  

• Pinpoint Landing - Land one vehicle (probe, rover, base) atop another vehicle on Laythe.
  
• Laser-Guided Stack Overflow - Land MORE THAN ONE vehicle atop another on Laythe.
  

• Our Technologies Are Compatible - Bring and fly a jet on Laythe.
  
• Lithophobia - Fly, land, fly again, and land again on Laythe with a jet.
  

• We Brought Snacks - Drive at least one Kerbal from your base at least 20km to another lander.
  

• Blame The Soup - Aerobrake in Jool's atmosphere at any point during the mission.
  

• Full Impulse Power - For at least one flight, from launch to assembly, use no RCS.
  
• Thrusters Are Non-Responsive - Never use RCS.
  
• I Can Do This On My Own - Never let your launch vehicle use any resource from your payload.
  
• Holy Mission - Your course has been set by God; dock one payload module with another in stable circular orbit outside the atmosphere while using no Xenon, RCS, nor Oxidizer.
  
  • From launch, dock precisely with your target using nothing but jet power.
    
    • This is impossible.
    • Completion of this impossible task will earn you baked goods, I kid you not.
      
      • But I will want proof before I preheat the oven.
        

[spoiler = "Lifters"]

GORPx3S Rocket

(Suggested launch profile w/MechJeb : begin turn at 10km, flatten at 70km, 40% curve, end altitude at 125km)

(Note, provided chutes may be inadequate to safely land or splash down. For the sake of practicality, you can ignore disintegration upon landing and still claim a perfect record. [This does not excuse breakup prior to contact with land/water, however!])

GORPx3AMS II (Jet-powered VTOL)

(Learn/tweak the ActionGroups before launch)

(Suggested launch profile w/MechJeb aid: begin turn at 5km, flatten at 30~33km, 50~90% curvature; jet cutoff around 55km; (de)activate intakes to balance IntakeAir with drag)

CATA3t Spaceplane

(Learn/tweak the ActionGroups before takeoff)

(Suggest standard spaceplane launch profile...?)

[spoiler = "Images"]

Edited June 26, 2013 by KwirkyJ
updated download links

[whatisthisidonteven]

The challenge isn't really stock if you let people use mechjeb.

[SpaceK531]

Sounds like a cool challenge, I love the award names. If I was a better rocket engineer I'd probably try it (and that i'm not at my computer).

[KwirkyJ]

The challenge isn't really stock if you let people use mechjeb.

This strikes me as a rather senseless quibble, yet since you have chosen to bring it up, I'll reply with my ready answer.

The spirit of this challenge is not purity for the sake of purity. Rather, the point is to complete the mission with the stock parts that are (more or less) balanced with each other: by excluding mod parts, I am attempting to enforce a more uniform means to that end, in that there are not impossibly efficient engines or low-massed structural pieces to which not everyone may have access. Besides, the goals of this are sufficiently tedious that excluding mechjeb or similar plugins from one's suite of tools to accomplish the task makes it less of a challenge and more of a chore. The point is to have fun! The point is to become creative while working within reasonable constraints! There is the standard 'badge' for doing things without mechjeb, of course, should one wish to pursue this challenge with the additional inanity that comes with doing absolutely everything manually -- by all means, the extra effort deserves to be rewarded! That said, in this case, I feel it should not be a requirement.

Edited May 8, 2013 by KwirkyJ

[Ninety-Three]

By a strict reading of the rules, it seems as though one could stick a 200 ton launcher atop one of the provided ships, use the provided ship to get to all of 1000 meters, then release the real launcher and take an arbitrarily large payload into space (even given a fairly conservative interpretation of "You must use the provided craft as the means for lifting your payload", I can imagine carrying up 10 tons of fuel and using the magic of alt-clicking to transfer some back into the launcher). I assume both of those things are against the spirit of the challenge?

Edit: I've given the thing a test flight, and it seems the "carry 10 tons of fuel and alt-click it to the main tanks to get significantly more into orbit" shenanigan isn't even necessary. The entire GORP Rocket is crossfed, if you stick a docking port and fuel tank on top of it, the mainsail will draw from the payload tank before touching the tanks that are part of the actual rocket. Trying to carry fuel up automatically takes advantage of this, making it impossible to run a fuel tanker within the presumed spirit of the challenge (unless we're to just fly the ship itself up with no extra fuel, and use whatever fumes it has left as the most painfully small fuel tanker ever).

Edited May 8, 2013 by Ninety-Three
Specifying GORP Rocket

[soranno]

Seems to me it states pretty clearly, the given launch vehicles plus a maximum of 3 tonnes payload...

[Ninety-Three]

Seems to me it states pretty clearly, the given launch vehicles plus a maximum of 3 tonnes payload...

Send manned base to Laythe assembled from small payloads not exceeding roughly three tonnes. (Limit enforced only by the launch vehicles.)

Also, I've realized that the GORP rocket can have several tons added to its lift capacity by simply burning off all that dead weight monopropellant on the launch pad.

[localSol]

Funny badges! I'll see if I can manage something.

[soranno]

True enough, that little bracketed section could render the whole thing irrelevant..

but it shouldn`t really be an issue to anyone who`s intent is not to completely subvert the spirit of the challenge from the offset.

Nevertheless, clarification in the rules could be worthwhile

[Jack wooster]

I've been trying a Laythe sample return mission, with a launcher that co-incidentally has a three ton payload to orbit limit.

I got a rover to Laythe in one shot, the sample return looks as if it will take three or four launches.

Maybe when I've finished I could rerun the mission using the launchers here, I've done much of the development already.

[Ninety-Three]

• From launch, dock precisely with your target using nothing but jet power.
  
  • This is impossible.
    

Actually, I can think of a realistic (read: not "throw yourself into space and hope to hit") way to do this. It still involves some excellent timing and piloting, but it's theoretically sound. Since I'm not a spaceplane person, I'll describe it, in case some other lunatic wants to earn baked goods.

Step 1: Put your station in orbit

Step 2: Lower your PE until it's dipping into the atmosphere (Unless the station is loaded, ie, within 2.5 km of a ship you're controlling, it won't experience air friction and orbital decay, so take your time with the next step)

Step 3: Figure out the timing required, and fly a plane to atmospheric intercept with your semi-orbital station

Step 4: Apply piloting skills and perform a thin-atmosphere docking.

[3_bit]

I'm going to do this all in one launch. Pics tomorrow.

[Ninety-Three]

I'm curious about how you plan to get four Kerbals in one launch.

[KwirkyJ]

Yay, lots of stuff to catch up upon and to respond to in kind!

As noted, one could, in theory, extend the launch vehicles arbitrarily without necessarily violating the rules. That said, it does go against the spirit of the challenge which is (even given in the tltle as) building a Laythe mission out of three-tonne payload components.

As for lifting fuel, you can manually disable crosfeed from the payload tanks prior to launch, This will prevent the engines from drawing from them. (Clicking the little arrow at the end of the tank's resource bar will turn it to a slash-circle, indiciating no fuel flow.)

For extending the payload of the GORPx3S by expending unneeded RCS at the pad, I will not say that is an invalid approach, I found that a large portion of the RCS is useful for maneuvering the bulk of the rocket for docking in orbit, but if you are wiling to risk a failed lauch by optimizing payload mass, I will not dissuade you unduly. Clever!

Re: the proposed means for docking above, I reject that possibility on the following grounds: I do not consider that atmosphere-entering orbit as stable. Yes, the rails will permit it so long as you are adequately distant, but it will being to decay once the 2.5km zone is breached, and, again, this is taking advantage of the game mechanics rather than respecting the 'realism' mean to be at play.

Addendum to the above: the GORPx3AMS I do not count as a spaceplane, per se, though your own views may be different... That said, I suppose I could amend the rules to a burn ceiling and an orbit floor, rather than "jet power" (e.g. disable engines below 60~65km, dock with station above 70km). This would then not exclude rockets necessarily, though the thrust -- and therefore control -- bias would be extreme. Thoughts?

3_bit, I wish you luck! (I'm curious to see how you manage this...)

[Ninety-Three]

If you wanted to avoid the no orbital decay cheesiness, I'm fairly certain that you could set a station on an orbit that dips into the atmosphere, and then dock with it on the first or second go around, avoiding the "It should have fallen out of the sky by now" bit. I'm of the opinion that you should leave the definition of that achievement as is: if anyone does it, even the way I described, that's pretty much the most impressive bit of KSP skill I'd've seen.

Now that you've confirmed that most of the shenanigans I suggested are outside the spirit of the challenge, I can offer a rule that prevents them: "No fuel from the payload stage may be consumed until the craft is in a stable orbit." If you'd like, you can append "And docked with the thing you're assembling in orbit, where applicable".

Anyway, I'll definitely be doing this challenge. One last problem I've found though.

When you deorbit the launcher, it doesn't exactly... land. Putting it down in the water is even more hilarious, as the orange tank is destroyed, causing all of the RCS thrusters to splash down in a wonderfully cartoony way.

[blazing angel]

need more chutes

[KwirkyJ]

If you wanted to avoid the no orbital decay cheesiness, I'm fairly certain that you could set a station on an orbit that dips into the atmosphere, and then dock with it on the first or second go around, avoiding the "It should have fallen out of the sky by now" bit. I'm of the opinion that you should leave the definition of that achievement as is: if anyone does it, even the way I described, that's pretty much the most impressive bit of KSP skill I'd've seen.

I suppose I should set up this specific challenge in a separate thread... I suppose I should, yesssss....

Now that you've confirmed that most of the shenanigans I suggested are outside the spirit of the challenge, I can offer a rule that prevents them: "No fuel from the payload stage may be consumed until the craft is in a stable orbit." If you'd like, you can append "And docked with the thing you're assembling in orbit, where applicable".

Not a bad idea. I think I'll add that to the accolades. Not exactly fair for a rule, though it is assuredly within the realm of possibility.

Anyway, I'll definitely be doing this challenge. One last problem I've found though. (Images) When you deorbit the launcher, it doesn't exactly... land. Putting it down in the water is even more hilarious, as the orange tank is destroyed, causing all of the RCS thrusters to splash down in a wonderfully cartoony way.

Tanj. That <censored> behemoth of a light lift vehicle.... My one test splashdown must have been a fluke. Yeah, uhm... Either add your own chutes or claim a successful landing if you've managed to bring your vessel that far. Not the most elegant solution, I admit, but far and above the most practical. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

And good luck!

[3_bit]

A quick question regarding the rules: can we just ignore the "3 ton limit" and carry as much as the Launch Vehicle can?

Additionally, can we put the launch vehicle on a suborbital trajectory, finish the orbital insertion with our space vehicle, then land the launch vehicle?

I won't be able to play until tomorrow but should be able to meet all the requirements in just one launch.

Another quick question: can we use a rover from the SPH to get kerbals to our space vehicle? There's no way I can get 4 kerbals up in 1 launch if I can only use the one that spawns with the vehicle.

Thank you for your help, I look forward to many, many hours of running ion engines to get to laythe. I have plans to use no mods so I can meet that extra achievement, otherwise I would have most definitely set up Mechjeb to do my bidding.

[Ninety-Three]

A quick question regarding the rules: can we just ignore the "3 ton limit" and carry as much as the Launch Vehicle can?

• Send manned base to Laythe assembled from small payloads not exceeding roughly three tonnes. (Limit enforced only by the launch vehicles.)

Yep.

Additionally, can we put the launch vehicle on a suborbital trajectory, finish the orbital insertion with our space vehicle, then land the launch vehicle?

• Please don't extend the launch vehicles with another massive launch stage and call it 'payload.' Yes, the rules don't exactly say it's disallowed, but it's just not cool. Not cool, bro.
  

So, not really. Though there's probably some flex in the rules depending on whether you mean "Get the last 100 m/s of orbit circularization off my payload" vs "Reach 50k altitude, switch to payload". However, the rules do allow you to put fuel in the payload, and burn that fuel with the launcher (there's an achievement for not doing so), so you can extend it somewhat.

Another quick question: can we use a rover from the SPH to get kerbals to our space vehicle? There's no way I can get 4 kerbals up in 1 launch if I can only use the one that spawns with the vehicle.

I'm more curious about how you plan to get them -up- there. There's no ladders on the launchers, and it's technically outside the rules to add them (though I bet that could be waived, given the circumstances). You will be awesome if you drop your extra pilots off with a flying rover, though.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Ninety-Three

[3_bit]

I'd just be driving over something of a fire truck and loading them onto their designated "seats"

[3_bit]

Edit: I've given the thing a test flight, and it seems the "carry 10 tons of fuel and alt-click it to the main tanks to get significantly more into orbit" shenanigan isn't even necessary. The entire GORP Rocket is crossfed, if you stick a docking port and fuel tank on top of it, the mainsail will draw from the payload tank before touching the tanks that are part of the actual rocket. Trying to carry fuel up automatically takes advantage of this, making it impossible to run a fuel tanker within the presumed spirit of the challenge (unless we're to just fly the ship itself up with no extra fuel, and use whatever fumes it has left as the most painfully small fuel tanker ever).

Right click port and left click "Disable crossfeed". Hax sol-ved.

[KwirkyJ]

A quick question regarding the rules: can we just ignore the "3 ton limit" and carry as much as the Launch Vehicle can?

Ninety-Three answered this to my satisfaction, but to be clear: no, you are not strictly bound to three tonnes -- just what the lifter can handle. Yes, they are imperfectly balanced, but the intent is there.

Additionally, can we put the launch vehicle on a suborbital trajectory, finish the orbital insertion with our space vehicle, then land the launch vehicle?

I don't see why not. The (roughly) three-tonne limit is the payload that which you send up in addition to your lift vehicle. What you do with it, be it docking tug, part of your mission vehicle, etc., is up to you!

Another quick question: can we use a rover from the SPH to get kerbals to our space vehicle? There's no way I can get 4 kerbals up in 1 launch if I can only use the one that spawns with the vehicle

The way I would (and intend to have) chosen to go about it is extracting crew from not-launched flights. For example, start a "flight" of a three-kerbal pod, take them EVA, and have them later board, for example, a four-kerbal hab module for launch to the mission vehicle. In the abstract sense, they are merely part of the crew pool available on the planet, as the stand-in flights whose (which?) crew I use never actually take place. Do note there is nothing stipulated that denotes that the crew you use must come exclusively from your payload-lifting flights. Otherwise, of course, you would be left with four vehicles at a minimum parked in LKO. How wasteful!

Additional note, I would be strapping on a few ladders to the lift vehicle to get the crew aboard. This I do not count as a disqualifying modification to the lift vehicle, as its flight profile is not effectively impacted. That said, there is an interesting caveat to the rules that could, in theory be exploited. I shall mention it, but dissuade people from this route: the launch vehicles can be extended. The rules only stipulate that you must use them, and that you must not discard any parts. Extra tanks and engines that you strap on, by strict interpretation, is marginally valid. This, naturally, is an extreme allowance, and something I would consider a bit of a cheat, but not a disqualifying one. (ladders, lights, and more 'cutes, sure. moar biggur lifter haha, please no.)

[3_bit]

I ran some numbers, and can do it with just 3.510 metric tons. I should have pics Saturday (burn times will be long). I also have 2,492 m/s delta-v IF my xenon tanks stayed full. Thus, I have some reserves. I noticed I should be able to carry a whopping 6 tons to LKO because the RCS fuel in the first launcher weighs 3 tons! I might add back all of my "coolness enhancers" and maybe even a second (!) rover/lander.

[3_bit]

Additional note, I would be strapping on a few ladders to the lift vehicle to get the crew aboard. This I do not count as a disqualifying modification to the lift vehicle, as its flight profile is not effectively impacted.

That would be at LEAST .1 tons! No way am I doing that....

[3_bit]

Just an update/bump: I'll be taking a bit less than 6 tons with me to laythe. I can still do it in one launch easily, as the amount of RCS in the Launch Vehicle I'm using is exactly 3 tons.