Orion aka "Ol' Boom-boom"

[nyrath]

Squee! That Orion mod is super fun! Keep up the great work!

Thanks!

Before I started this I noted that there were zero Orion mods in the spaceport, and about 4 mod attempts that failed halfway through. This told me that the players wanted an Orion, but it was freaking hard to do.

Here are some things I noticed:

1.) The pusher plate is really durable and suitable to use as landing gear. I managed to land at > 100 m/s and that thing didn't break. (pictures: http://imgur.com/a/11iR1) However, less durable and well-fixed ship components may break off and/or explode. Also, you have to touch down on the pusher plate. Landing sideways usually makes it explode.

Wow! I didn't know that was possible! Amazing!

2.) It would be nice if bomb feeding could be managed with action groups.

Yes, that is on my list of things to do. It is difficult since the number of different bomb types is determined at run-time. Which means if somebody makes a vessel using bomb feed action groups, launches it, quits game, uninstalls that bomb type, the action group links will be different. I'll see what I can do.

3.) There's a bug with deactivating/activating the bomb feeding via right-click: it always applies to all engines that were placed together by using the symmetry tool. I'd expect it to affect only the engine I right-clicked.

In case you're wondering why anyone would want more than one such engine in his space ship: I had the idea that if the ship is too heavy to be turned, I simply need one engine pointing in every direction. Like this: http://i.imgur.com/qub5642.jpg (It didn't work very well - it tends to start spinning slowly, and there is nothing you can do to stop that.)

:0.0:

Great Tsiolkovsky's Ghost!

yes, apparently when you apply anything with the symmetry tool, they are all sort of reflections of the same part. I'll add that to my bug list.

[nyrath]

Good that its on your website now

I have you listed as "first test pilot of Project Orion"

[Markarian421]

The pusher plate is really durable and suitable to use as landing gear.

Ok, now I'm going to have to try and land it . . .

nyrath, I've had no serious problems with the last two versions and I've started to use this for just about all my rockets. The swaying I mentioned on G+ I think is either an ASAS or MechJeb attitude control problem -- the PID parameters appear to be badly underdamped if I put enough RCS thrusters on this to really move it around, and it will just end up oscillating up and down after a turn, never converging. Probably means I just need to use less RCS.

[Canopus]

I have you listed as "first test pilot of Project Orion"

Wow thank you

[Markarian421]

Indeed it's possible to land it. I even landed it using the 10MN's (I only used scaled radial engines to ease it a bit north).

[nyrath]

Indeed it's possible to land it. I even landed it using the 10MN's (I only used scaled radial engines to ease it a bit north).

Excellent! So you can land an Orion.

Hmmmmmm, that's interesting. Scoundrel and SufficientAnonymity tried creating an Orion where some of the parts interpenetrated into the body of the engine. They would explode on the launch pad the instant the physics turned on. However, it appears that your radial engines interpenetrate. Do they?

[NovaSilisko]

Do your colliders have the Convex flag ticked? If not, all sorts of bad things can happen.

[Markarian421]

I haven't had any problems with anything I've mounted on the outside in this version. These engines are just the standard ones scaled by rescaleFactor = (new thrust/default thrust)^1/3 (scaled by volume for thrust). I've also used scaled RCS blocks and spherical tanks on there with no problem.

[Canopus]

btw Scott Manley is now looking into your Mod nyrath. Atleast he said he would.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Canopus

[nyrath]

Do your colliders have the Convex flag ticked? If not, all sorts of bad things can happen.

Indeed I do, sir. But thank you for pointing out possible trouble spots. So many of these pitfalls are easy to miss. When I import a mesh from Blender into Unity 3D, one of the things on my checklist is to select each component object and check the "Convex" checkbox in the collider section.

I haven't had any problems with anything I've mounted on the outside in this version. These engines are just the standard ones scaled by rescaleFactor = (new thrust/default thrust)^1/3 (scaled by volume for thrust). I've also used scaled RCS blocks and spherical tanks on there with no problem.

I too have had no problem with monopropellant tanks and RCS blocks. But those items attach to the surface of the engine. Scoundrel's exploding ships have parts that actually interpenetrate the engine.

In the picture, the conical features are nose cones stuck to the bottom of the magazines.

btw Scott Manley is now looking into your Mod nyrath. At least he said he would.

Excellent! I got the impression he was waiting until the mod left alpha and was entered into the spaceport. You might want to pass to him the link to my trials and tribulations

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/sealofapproval.php#id--Computer_Simulation--Kerbal_Space_Program--Orion_nuclear_pulse

Edited June 15, 2013 by nyrath

[Canopus]

Excellent! I got the impression he was waiting until the mod left alpha and was entered into the spaceport. You might want to pass to him the link to my trials and tribulations

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/sealofapproval.php#id--Computer_Simulation--Kerbal_Space_Program--Orion_nuclear_pulse

I'll try

[Markarian421]

Scoundrel's exploding ships have parts that actually interpenetrate the engine.

I played around with this some, using just the tail piece in all kinds of absurd positions intersecting the main body, the magazines, etc., no problem. Then I tried putting the engines on. The engines didn't want to attach so it was a two step process -- put a large structural piece somewhere, stick the tail to that, stick the engine to that, then remove the tail+engine and stick that on the main body. That didn't go over so well, as soon as physics turned on those parts were forcefully ejected.

[nyrath]

I played around with this some, using just the tail piece in all kinds of absurd positions intersecting the main body, the magazines, etc., no problem. Then I tried putting the engines on. The engines didn't want to attach so it was a two step process -- put a large structural piece somewhere, stick the tail to that, stick the engine to that, then remove the tail+engine and stick that on the main body. That didn't go over so well, as soon as physics turned on those parts were forcefully ejected.

Yes, that's the same problem. Thanks for the testing, you've given me more clues. It also seems to be influence by how many tons worth of magazines you have. I'm working on it.

[ProjectXMark1]

Put the pusher plates of two orions together:

My ears hurt a bit afterwards, but it sounded awesome.

Will post more images later.

[Markarian421]

I'm still running into the swaying thing, is anyone else seeing that? I flew to Minimus and while trying to establish an orbit the ship started bobbing up and down. I shut off RCS, ASAS, MechJeb, and the ship settled down but then my predicted orbit was oscillating . . . as if the ship's mass or center of gravity or something was continuously changing.

[nyrath]

Put the pusher plates of two orions together:

My ears hurt a bit afterwards, but it sounded awesome.

Will post more images later.

ProjectXMark1, I like how you think.

I'm still running into the swaying thing, is anyone else seeing that? I flew to Minimus and while trying to establish an orbit the ship started bobbing up and down. I shut off RCS, ASAS, MechJeb, and the ship settled down but then my predicted orbit was oscillating . . . as if the ship's mass or center of gravity or something was continuously changing.

Well, that sounds ominous. Let me take another look at the code. Sounds suspiciously like I'm shifting the magazine mass back and forth every couple of frames or something. I'll get back to you.

later...

No, that wasn't it, I don't think.

Maybe related, maybe not. In one of my saved games I have two Orions in orbit. When Orion 1 has its SAS turned on with the "T" key, everything is fine.

With Orion 2 however, when I turn on SAS, the yaw-pitch-roll indicators in the lower left jitter. Probably mass related.

Still later...

Markarian421, could I please have a copy of your persistence file?

Edited June 16, 2013 by nyrath

[Rainbowtrout]

Seems interesting. Will try soon!

[Canopus]

Would it be possible to make the Whole thing lighter again or would that bring back old bugs? The problem is that the thing is incredibly hard to control and though the mass might be realistic but for KSP a little tedious. (Don't get me wrong i'm all for realism in most cases )

[Sufficient Anonymity]

You guys seemed to enjoy Prospero, so I made a few refinements and ended up with an improved cruiser design - thanks to radiation concerns she's a drone, rather than a manned vessel, and has some ridiculously oversized RCS thrusters (they're the low profile B9 liquid-fueled thrusters). She still handles like a brick when in atmo, but at least she no longer takes forever to come about. Anyway, presenting Caliban

Proof of handling like a brick - one incredibly sloppy orbit (I'll circularise it nicely later to dock Laythe station components):

EDIT: possible alternate reason for sloppy handling - drunken mission controller

Edited June 16, 2013 by SufficientAnonymity
Re: drunkeness

[Markarian421]

Let me check this evening -- at the moment I'm back to thinking it's not your problem. That ship had two landers, four command modules (one a probe), three mechjebs and ASAS units, and some room to flex. Maybe any tall long rocket I build would do that. Once I got it into a low orbit and detached the landers it was behaving itself. Earlier today I made a stock + MechJeb Orion and was unable to recreate even the slightest trace of the problem. (Note to self: next time you try to put an Orion into Minimus orbit w/o additional engines, bring something smaller than the 10MN's . . .)

[nyrath]

Would it be possible to make the Whole thing lighter again or would that bring back old bugs? The problem is that the thing is incredibly hard to control and though the mass might be realistic but for KSP a little tedious. (Don't get me wrong i'm all for realism in most cases )

As an experiment, I took your suggestion and tried making the while thing lighter. Unfortunately it did not seem to change anything. And it would mean I would have to reduce the power of the magazines, or one 400 MN charge could send you to Duna.

It also did not fix the interpenetrating parts problem, which is interesting. That suggests that something else is the problem. Maybe something strange in the mesh.

Let me check this evening -- at the moment I'm back to thinking it's not your problem. That ship had two landers, four command modules (one a probe), three mechjebs and ASAS units, and some room to flex. Maybe any tall long rocket I build would do that. Once I got it into a low orbit and detached the landers it was behaving itself. Earlier today I made a stock + MechJeb Orion and was unable to recreate even the slightest trace of the problem. (Note to self: next time you try to put an Orion into Minimus orbit w/o additional engines, bring something smaller than the 10MN's . . .)

Ah, that would be good news for me if something else was causing the problem!

[Sufficient Anonymity]

I encountered an odd glitch in an otherwise routine mission to Jool this morning - here is Caliban, burning hard retrograde sorting out an orbit, with the explosions behaving as if in atmo -

[Canopus]

As an experiment, I took your suggestion and tried making the while thing lighter. Unfortunately it did not seem to change anything. And it would mean I would have to reduce the power of the magazines, or one 400 MN charge could send you to Duna.

Yes that seems to be a big problem.

Edit: I had the idea for another type of bomb, an non shaped charge. It has low thrust but the blast radius is much bigger. Could be fun to destroy orbiting Debris with it.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Canopus

[magnemoe]

As an experiment, I took your suggestion and tried making the while thing lighter. Unfortunately it did not seem to change anything. And it would mean I would have to reduce the power of the magazines, or one 400 MN charge could send you to Duna.

It also did not fix the interpenetrating parts problem, which is interesting. That suggests that something else is the problem. Maybe something strange in the mesh.

One option is to add an torque module or two to the ship. Found one on spaceport who works well after I upgraded it. You can also find beefed up rcs trusters, monoprop weight is not much of an problem

[Canopus]

One option is to add an torque module or two to the ship. Found one on spaceport who works well after I upgraded it. You can also find beefed up rcs trusters, monoprop weight is not much of an problem

I already use the control moment gyroscope and it works great for me