[0.21.x] KerbCom Avionics 0.3.0.6 Alpha (29 August) - now with video!

[ZRM]

Right, new release, though it's a bit later than I intended, due to work on the Kerbin Mini Shuttle.

[Torminator]

I shall try this out shortly.

I'll also have something for you to make up for all the issues I've been having.

UPDATE:

AFAIK, there's no lag in VAB or with the GUI, but I didn't really test that out strenuously, because I was recording and editing this:

Hopefully this can help you get the message out about what KCA can do. Even I was pretty amazed at how agile this little thing was.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Torminator

[SkyHook]

After playing with the update the VAB FPS issues is gone! Thanks! There are still serious framerate issues associated with the plugin, but I am playing with the settings as we speak. Grateful for this plugin

[Torminator]

When you think about how much it's doing and how quickly it's doing it, some framerate issues aren't too surprising. Look at the video I posted, and watch how rapidly the thrust is being varied.

[m4v]

I shall try this out shortly.

I'll also have something for you to make up for all the issues I've been having.

UPDATE:

AFAIK, there's no lag in VAB or with the GUI, but I didn't really test that out strenuously, because I was recording and editing this:

*video*

Hopefully this can help you get the message out about what KCA can do. Even I was pretty amazed at how agile this little thing was.

Oh my god, now any engineering abomination can fly! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!!

[ZRM]

I shall try this out shortly.

I'll also have something for you to make up for all the issues I've been having.

UPDATE:

AFAIK, there's no lag in VAB or with the GUI, but I didn't really test that out strenuously, because I was recording and editing this:

*video*

Hopefully this can help you get the message out about what KCA can do. Even I was pretty amazed at how agile this little thing was.

Thanks for that! Very nice demonstration of how KCA makes the best out of whatever you've given it. Do you mind if I embed it in the OP? Other than this video, this mod is in dire need of some publicity - I keep finding threads in Addon Request & Support asking for the features of this mod. I think I may actually put it on Spaceport at some point.

Would you be interested in making more demonstration videos, e.g. demonstrating an ascent and docking (which with the new Combined Mode should not require any modes/settings to be changed during flight), or deorbiting a VTOL to land on the Mun? Some people prefer moving pictures to my walls of text.

---

After playing with the update the VAB FPS issues is gone! Thanks! There are still serious framerate issues associated with the plugin, but I am playing with the settings as we speak. Grateful for this plugin

I would be very interested in trying to reproduce your problems, as personally I have yet to encounter any framerate issues at all with the new solver during flight. Could you post a description of your setup, including mods installed and your system spec, as well as a craft or two I can reproduce this with?

---

Oh my god, now any engineering abomination can fly! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!!

Hah, it's not quite as bad as that. This mod gives you much more freedom in your designs, but you still have constraints to work to - it does not break the laws of (KSP) physics.

Also, thanks for posting that quote - it alerted me (via email) to Torminator's edited post.

[ERPP8]

I am having trouble figuring out how to even use this mod. I have it installed, but it does nothing for my VTOL's. They behave just like they would without this. I don't have mechjeb, would that fix it?

[ERPP8]

This mod doesn't do anything for me. I installed it according to the directions, I have modulemanager, and I can see the menu of it in craft with default cockpits, but it does nothing. My VTOLs handle exactly the same. What is wrong? Please help me.

[japa]

Does the extra window pop up? If not, then you didn't install it properly. Make sure you also do the optional install stuff in the readme, so it gets added to your command modules.

[Torminator]

I am having trouble figuring out how to even use this mod. I have it installed, but it does nothing for my VTOL's. They behave just like they would without this. I don't have mechjeb, would that fix it?

Yes, as others have said, make sure you also install the gamedata folder contained within the "command pod patch" or something similar.

Thanks for that! Very nice demonstration of how KCA makes the best out of whatever you've given it. Do you mind if I embed it in the OP? Other than this video, this mod is in dire need of some publicity - I keep finding threads in Addon Request & Support asking for the features of this mod. I think I may actually put it on Spaceport at some point.

Would you be interested in making more demonstration videos, e.g. demonstrating an ascent and docking (which with the new Combined Mode should not require any modes/settings to be changed during flight), or deorbiting a VTOL to land on the Mun? Some people prefer moving pictures to my walls of text.

Sorry about the Ninja Edit. I try to avoid double-posting for obvious reasons.

I don't mind at all if you use the video! One of my goals in making it was to give a visual demonstration. I can try making demonstrations of other features, but those are much more dependent on my piloting skill.

Avionics or not, most of my munar landing attempts result in SAD: Surface-Aided Deceleration. Docking it a bit less error-prone. I'll see if I can work something out.

[ZRM]

Sorry about the Ninja Edit. I try to avoid double-posting for obvious reasons.

I don't mind at all if you use the video! One of my goals in making it was to give a visual demonstration. I can try making demonstrations of other features, but those are much more dependent on my piloting skill.

Avionics or not, most of my munar landing attempts result in SAD: Surface-Aided Deceleration. Docking it a bit less error-prone. I'll see if I can work something out.

Your video is now in the OP. Thanks again for that.

[ERPP8]

Yes, as others have said, make sure you also install the gamedata folder contained within the "command pod patch" or something similar.

Sorry about the Ninja Edit. I try to avoid double-posting for obvious reasons.

I don't mind at all if you use the video! One of my goals in making it was to give a visual demonstration. I can try making demonstrations of other features, but those are much more dependent on my piloting skill.

Avionics or not, most of my munar landing attempts result in SAD: Surface-Aided Deceleration. Docking it a bit less error-prone. I'll see if I can work something out.

I have the window open for my ship, and the mod is controlling the engines individually, but the ship still does sideflips. According to accounts of this mod, you can make a ship completely off balance, or lose several engines and still hover, but my planes still lose control.

[japa]

Without a screenshot of your ship, it's hard to say exactly what's wrong, but as long as your ship has engines on all sides of the CoM, it /should/ be working.

Screenshot would help here.

[MOARdV]

I finally installed this to try it out. I've got it on one of my orbital service modules, and it works exactly as advertised (linear translations without rotation - hard to do on a craft that has no good spots for RCS near CoM). One thing I see is that MechJeb (Sarbian's branch) no longer auto-stages during ascent. I assume KCA is not active at this time, since I hide the GUI without selecting any modes. I see this behavior even on a space craft that does not have this module added to any command pods. The command pods also report "Operational: True" and "Control State: Local" on their context menu, even without any pods on the ship including KCA. If I remove this DLL, the auto-staging works again. Is this expected?

[ZRM]

I finally installed this to try it out. I've got it on one of my orbital service modules, and it works exactly as advertised (linear translations without rotation - hard to do on a craft that has no good spots for RCS near CoM). One thing I see is that MechJeb (Sarbian's branch) no longer auto-stages during ascent. I assume KCA is not active at this time, since I hide the GUI without selecting any modes. I see this behavior even on a space craft that does not have this module added to any command pods. The command pods also report "Operational: True" and "Control State: Local" on their context menu, even without any pods on the ship including KCA. If I remove this DLL, the auto-staging works again. Is this expected?

Thanks for the feedback! The more feedback I get the more reliable/stable/useful I can make this mod.

I haven't really tested much for compatibility with MechJeb. Not sure what would be breaking the auto-staging. Does it break all auto staging, or just some stages? KCA does not directly affect staging, so no, this is not expected. Something must be breaking inside MechJeb somehow when it encounters my modifications. On an unrelated note, IMO MechJeb needs either an overhaul or a replacement at some point - it should take some tips from real world and simulator control systems to make itself more reliable, useful and easier to use. It should also stop relying so much on statistics gained from the internal data of stock KSP modules and assumptions of how control affects vessels - this restricts its compatibility with unusual designs and plugin-based propulsion or control methods, such as KCA.

Regarding the additional context information being available at all times, that is expected, and due to augmentations KCA makes to parts at load-time in order to allow KCA enough control access to work. I have previously tried making it so that parts are augmented on-the-fly by the onboard KCA module (so vessels without KCA modules would not be augmented), but it proved too unreliable. These augmentations should not affect stock behaviour other than gimbals, which have been upgraded to correct defective stock gimbal behaviour. Specifically it fixes the issues where stock gimbals work against you when placed above the COM, and they do not react to roll control input.

Also, don't forget to try out the engine balancing modes in KCA. See the new video in the OP for an example.

[MOARdV]

Not sure what would be breaking the auto-staging. Does it break all auto staging, or just some stages?

It happens only on the first stage. And, after poking around a bit, it looks like it's specific to the Bobcat Soyuz-U. My standard lifters don't have the problem, and an all-stock multi-stage thing didn't have the problem. Looking at the error log when launching a Soyuz lifter, I see the following appear six times in a row right after "stage manager starting...":

[LOG 14:55:36.526] Gimbal controller starting
[LOG 14:55:36.526] Gimbal is not null
[LOG 14:55:36.527] Error: gimbal.initRots is null
[LOG 14:55:36.527] Gimballed Engine: Failed init. Will try again later.

Which, not coincidentally, is the number of engine parts on the Soyuz-U (four lateral boosters, the core/second stage, and the upper stage). I don't see that error message when I use my standard lifter on that payload. I'm guessing there's something odd about those parts, so maybe I ought to swap them out for my standard lifter, so I can use these avionics.

[ERPP8]

Without a screenshot of your ship, it's hard to say exactly what's wrong, but as long as your ship has engines on all sides of the CoM, it /should/ be working.

Screenshot would help here.

Edit: I've already tried every combination of RCS, SAS and guidance only, none of them work, they only crash in different directions. The ship also has four thrusters, two on each side. According to what I see, this ship should fly perfectly, but it always crashes.

Edited September 4, 2013 by ERPP8

[ZRM]

images

Edit: I've already tried every combination of RCS, SAS and guidance only, none of them work, they only crash in different directions. The ship also has four thrusters, two on each side. According to what I see, this ship should fly perfectly, but it always crashes.

I can see two things that may be responsible for your problems:

• You are using jet VTOL engines. These engines have a substantial spool-up/spool-down time. As such they probably don't react quickly enough to the changes in input provided by KCA at high torque sensitivities as the SAS tries to keep the vessel level. My first recommendation is to try decreasing the torque strength significantly in KCA settings so that its inputs to the engines do not vary as much (so the output should more closely match the input, and not oscillate as much). I have had good success with jet VTOLs after decreasing their sensitivities. If that fails, you can replace them with rocket VTOL engines, which do not lag and should provide perfect control, but at the expense of much lower ISP. The ideal solution is to add B9 air-fueled RCS ports, as these approximate real life jet-based VTOL systems. In real life a single engine provides the main body of lift, as well as high pressure air to attitude control nozzles around the craft that can change their output instantly by changing their apertures. The problem with this approach would be that KCA would still preferentially vary engine thrusts instead of using the RCS ports, since it does not yet have any knowledge of the laggy behaviour of jet engines (fixing this is feasible, though I do not have much time to work on this currently).
  
• Your vessel includes a lot of aerodynamic static and dynamic surfaces. KSP aerodynamics can behave very unrealistically, especially when any surface moves backwards. This could be creating forces that the system cannot fully counteract.
  

[ERPP8]

I can see two things that may be responsible for your problems:

• You are using jet VTOL engines. These engines have a substantial spool-up/spool-down time. As such they probably don't react quickly enough to the changes in input provided by KCA at high torque sensitivities as the SAS tries to keep the vessel level. My first recommendation is to try decreasing the torque strength significantly in KCA settings so that its inputs to the engines do not vary as much (so the output should more closely match the input, and not oscillate as much). I have had good success with jet VTOLs after decreasing their sensitivities. If that fails, you can replace them with rocket VTOL engines, which do not lag and should provide perfect control, but at the expense of much lower ISP. The ideal solution is to add B9 air-fueled RCS ports, as these approximate real life jet-based VTOL systems. In real life a single engine provides the main body of lift, as well as high pressure air to attitude control nozzles around the craft that can change their output instantly by changing their apertures. The problem with this approach would be that KCA would still preferentially vary engine thrusts instead of using the RCS ports, since it does not yet have any knowledge of the laggy behaviour of jet engines (fixing this is feasible, though I do not have much time to work on this currently).
  
• Your vessel includes a lot of aerodynamic static and dynamic surfaces. KSP aerodynamics can behave very unrealistically, especially when any surface moves backwards. This could be creating forces that the system cannot fully counteract.
  

Thanks for all the help, I think the spool up might be the problem. But which B9 port are you talking about? The RCS linear port? Or the ones in the video on the OP? Because I don't know if I have that one.

[ZRM]

Thanks for all the help, I think the spool up might be the problem. But which B9 port are you talking about? The RCS linear port? Or the ones in the video on the OP? Because I don't know if I have that one.

The "R1A Compressed Air Thrust Nozzle" is a standard B9 part. It's fueled by IntakeAir instead of Monopropellant. But, as I said, using RCS would probably not wholly fix the problem, though you can try. Best to try and tweak the settings or switch to rocket engines.

[ERPP8]

The "R1A Compressed Air Thrust Nozzle" is a standard B9 part. It's fueled by IntakeAir instead of Monopropellant. But, as I said, using RCS would probably not wholly fix the problem, though you can try. Best to try and tweak the settings or switch to rocket engines.

Ok, I have that, but in the video in the OP, what kind of linear engines was he using?

[ZRM]

Ok, I have that, but in the video in the OP, what kind of linear engines was he using?

According to the video (if you wait till the end) they are radial thrusters from LackLusterLabs.

[ERPP8]

I've been able to recreate the agility of the video, but like you said, it doesn't quite work with jet engines. Even with RCS ports, the ship goes full stupid within seconds. Any tips to make it work with jets? The craft I have in mind wouldn't work without them.

[Torminator]

I've done quite a lot of mucking about with Jet VTOLs, and ZRM is right: The throttle delay causes difficulties. The best you can do is try to get your center of thrust as close on the dot of your center of mass as you can. With B9 engines, it's easy since the point of thrust is the exact same between forward and VTOL modes. What I do is mark the current CoM, with the turbojets on, with an antenna or something, then take the turbojets off, tune the VTOL engines, and re-place the turbojets.

And yeah, fuel concerns make rocket VTOLs really impractical for most applications. You'll notice I had to use infinite fuel in short order during that video.

My best advice is to anticipate the delay. When I was making a VTOL for another game, Rigs of Rods, I was able to use two engines per "pod", angled outwards. To increase thrust, I simply made them more parallel, and vice versa to decrease. The overall throttle never changed, but the effective thrust did. Sadly, this is not quite feasible within KSP at the moment.

If it doesn't bother you too much, Devo's Pegasus shuttle has RCS thrusters with a power of FIFTY. If those can't keep you pointed in the right direction, nothing can.

[ZRM]

I've been able to recreate the agility of the video, but like you said, it doesn't quite work with jet engines. Even with RCS ports, the ship goes full stupid within seconds. Any tips to make it work with jets? The craft I have in mind wouldn't work without them.

Have you tried decreasing the torque sensitivity/strength like I suggested previously? If you put it at around 5%, although the control is sluggish, it tends not to be unbalanced since the input more closely matches the output throttles. I have a jet-powered VTOL that I have used successfully for regular trips around Kerbin, though it doesn't have wings so it's a bit slow since it's limited to vertical thrust only.