[0.90] Procedural Dynamics - Procedural Wing 0.9.3 Dec 24

[Donziboy2]

Im also having the same issue as Northstar1989 on 0.23 and 0.6. Along with the crazy high speed wing flapping that makes PW craft unusable.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Donziboy2

[Krist]

That may be a stupid question: But the procedural control surfaces: How do I use them? I can attach one, but cannot seem to find out how to change their size or shape...

[jrandom]

That may be a stupid question: But the procedural control surfaces: How do I use them? I can attach one, but cannot seem to find out how to change their size or shape...

Use the same keys as for the wings: G alters length/span, R alters the root width, and T alters the tip width.

[FlyingRaptorJesus]

where are these in the tech tree? i can't find them so i havent been able to use them

[MisterFister]

Was looking for this as well since I'm still running 0.22 until all the mods I use are stabilized; and until I have time to deal with any changes they've made. The 0.23 version hangs on the loading screen.

The main issue causing .23 to hang, from my experience, is the ModuleManager1_5.dll no longer works in .23. I suggest upgrading to ModuleManager1_5_6.dll. Solved the hanging issue for me.

[Tex_NL]

where are these in the tech tree? i can't find them so i havent been able to use them

They are not. That's exactly the problem.

For days I was under the assumption I simply had not unlocked the proper tech node yet. But now that I have the entire tree unlocked they still weren't there. I knew in 0.22 pWing didn't have proper techtree integration but since the pack has a few new parts I expected this to be resolved as well. Boy was I wrong.

So what gives DYJ, why no techtree integration? I know how I can do it myself but a lot of people do not. Time to step up to the plate and get things fixed.

[Donziboy2]

The main issue causing .23 to hang, from my experience, is the ModuleManager1_5.dll no longer works in .23. I suggest upgrading to ModuleManager1_5_6.dll. Solved the hanging issue for me.

It did not work properly, here is a link since google search likes to send people to the old thread....

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/55219-Module-Manager-1-5-%28Nov-11%29?p=861735&viewfull=1#post861735

To bad this does not fix the wings spazzing out and tearing the plane apart no matter how many struts you use....

Here is a better gif of what is happening. Most of the time the engine tear off before I hit 300m and the thing will fly itself with just the wings flapping....

Edited December 29, 2013 by Donziboy2

[Hodo]

where are these in the tech tree? i can't find them so i havent been able to use them

They are not. That's exactly the problem.

For days I was under the assumption I simply had not unlocked the proper tech node yet. But now that I have the entire tree unlocked they still weren't there. I knew in 0.22 pWing didn't have proper techtree integration but since the pack has a few new parts I expected this to be resolved as well. Boy was I wrong.

So what gives DYJ, why no techtree integration? I know how I can do it myself but a lot of people do not. Time to step up to the plate and get things fixed.

Easy DIY fix.

Add this to the cfg file for each of the Pwing parts you want to add to the tech tree under the section that says, //--- editor parameters ---.

TechRequired = supersonicFlight

entryCost = 5400

This will add the parts to the tech tree. IF you have B9 you will run into a conflict with one part, the SH 4m control surface, so rename the PWing version something different. In example I named my PW SH 4m Control surface, this title = PWSH 4m Control Surface. This fixed the conflict issue with the B9 SH 4m Control Surface and let me unlock both in the tech tree.

[Hodo]

Im also having the same issue as Northstar1989 on 0.23 and 0.6. Along with the crazy high speed wing flapping that makes PW craft unusable.

http://i.imgur.com/4WkOzuz.gif

Can't really tell what else is going on in that clip. But judging by the short clip, I can tell you there are several things wrong with that craft that will cause that problem.

1- No ailerons, you know the things that control roll, they are often placed near the end of the wings

2- The thrust is blowing right back on your elevators, that are most likely acting as your roll control also. This is damaging them and causing uneven airflow over them, if you are using FAR. If not they are just damaging them and I don't think KSP knows how to handle it otherwise. In other words you are burning your tail off.

3- To much throttle on take off. I highly suggest throttling back on any craft that has higher than a 2.9:1 TWR on take off. I know my mach 6 aircraft for the Machingbird Challenge, has a 4.79:1 TWR and if it takes off at full power it does that exact same thing. So I throttle back to 25% and it flies fine till about 10km then I go full throttle.

4- We have no clue what speed you are going, what mods you are using, and what else is wrong with that craft.

So if you want a more direct answer to your problem please post more information, otherwise I am just urinating in the breeze.

[Donziboy2]

Can't really tell what else is going on in that clip. But judging by the short clip, I can tell you there are several things wrong with that craft that will cause that problem.

1- No ailerons, you know the things that control roll, they are often placed near the end of the wings http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Aileron_roll.gif

2- The thrust is blowing right back on your elevators, that are most likely acting as your roll control also. This is damaging them and causing uneven airflow over them, if you are using FAR. If not they are just damaging them and I don't think KSP knows how to handle it otherwise. In other words you are burning your tail off.

3- To much throttle on take off. I highly suggest throttling back on any craft that has higher than a 2.9:1 TWR on take off. I know my mach 6 aircraft for the Machingbird Challenge, has a 4.79:1 TWR and if it takes off at full power it does that exact same thing. So I throttle back to 25% and it flies fine till about 10km then I go full throttle.

4- We have no clue what speed you are going, what mods you are using, and what else is wrong with that craft.

So if you want a more direct answer to your problem please post more information, otherwise I am just urinating in the breeze.

I can upload them to YouTube if you want a better view, but the wings are jumping about 4 times faster then they appear in the gifs.

1. Its not rolling...

2. The engines are above the elevators, I have also tried putting them on the wings, and they just get thrown off faster...

3. Im using KSPI Thermal TurboJets, they have about 100kN of thrust on the runway. I usually take off with about 5m/s of thrust.

4. Im using alot of mods.

Making the wings smaller seems to make it go away, once the wing hits a certain size it starts happening and the larger the wing the lower the speed needed. I rebuilt a second design with 2 smaller wings and it flew just fine.

Since im the only one with this problem I will just have to watch how large I make the wings and live with it.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Donziboy2

[FlyingRaptorJesus]

Easy DIY fix.

Add this to the cfg file for each of the Pwing parts you want to add to the tech tree under the section that says, //--- editor parameters ---.

TechRequired = supersonicFlight

entryCost = 5400

This will add the parts to the tech tree. IF you have B9 you will run into a conflict with one part, the SH 4m control surface, so rename the PWing version something different. In example I named my PW SH 4m Control surface, this title = PWSH 4m Control Surface. This fixed the conflict issue with the B9 SH 4m Control Surface and let me unlock both in the tech tree.

THANKS! i'll get to trying this right away!

[Hodo]

I can upload them to YouTube if you want a better view, but the wings are jumping about 4 times faster then they appear in the gifs.

1. Its not rolling...

2. The engines are above the elevators, I have also tried putting them on the wings, and they just get thrown off faster...

3. Im using KSPI Thermal TurboJets, they have about 100kN of thrust on the runway. I usually take off with about 5m/s of thrust.

4. Im using alot of mods.

Making the wings smaller seems to make it go away, once the wing hits a certain size it starts happening and the larger the wing the lower the speed needed. I rebuilt a second design with 2 smaller wings and it flew just fine.

Since im the only one with this problem I will just have to watch how large I make the wings and live with it.

Ok it looks like you are having some weird control issue, have you checked the debug screen to see what faults are coming across if any?

The only thing I can think of in FAR that would be causing your issue, is the size of your wing. You have VERY big wings for a craft that isn't that large. Large wing surface equals large amounts of drag. So big deep wings will create huge amounts of drag but also generate large amounts of lift. So the best bet if you need to go faster is smaller wings, both in length and depth.

Great example of real life fast aircraft, look at the Mig-25 Foxbat, it can go over mach 3, but it has pretty small wings for its mass, and handles like a brick below supersonic speeds. But on the other side of the coin, the DG-800 Glider, has LONG shallow wings that generate a GREAT deal of lift and have very little actual drag. But the Boeing 747, has big deep long wings that generate a great deal of lift, at a decent speed, but would fly off at supersonic speeds.

[Donziboy2]

Ok it looks like you are having some weird control issue, have you checked the debug screen to see what faults are coming across if any?

The only thing I can think of in FAR that would be causing your issue, is the size of your wing. You have VERY big wings for a craft that isn't that large. Large wing surface equals large amounts of drag. So big deep wings will create huge amounts of drag but also generate large amounts of lift. So the best bet if you need to go faster is smaller wings, both in length and depth.

Great example of real life fast aircraft, look at the Mig-25 Foxbat, it can go over mach 3, but it has pretty small wings for its mass, and handles like a brick below supersonic speeds. But on the other side of the coin, the DG-800 Glider, has LONG shallow wings that generate a GREAT deal of lift and have very little actual drag. But the Boeing 747, has big deep long wings that generate a great deal of lift, at a decent speed, but would fly off at supersonic speeds.

That craft is 85T, one of my other version was almost 200....

This is one of my SSTO's that I wanted to replace the wings on...

[Hodo]

That craft is 85T, one of my other version was almost 200....

This is one of my SSTO's that I wanted to replace the wings on...

Here is one of my heavy lift SSTOs, SP-406. As you can see by the wing design it has a relatively shallow wing, not a large delta wing.

Yes that is 108tons in the cargo bay, the later SP-406VB can carry a bit more into orbit and it has VTOL abilities.

[DYJ]

The reason I haven't yet added pWings to the techtree is that it wouldn't do much good for people playing the "vanilla" career mode. The stock tree does a very good job of marginalizing aircraft so no matter where I'd put pWings they'd be next to pointless.

A meaningful integration would include changing the entire tree and making additional parts, something I've looked into and determined to be a too big of a distraction, and out of scope for pWings. Something for later perhaps.

Old example of a craft using new lowtier jetengines and pWings.

Currently the plan for pWings stage1 to be able to completely replace all types of stock wingparts, something it almost does as of the last release. Only thing left is allmoving surfaces which is currently in the works. Just need to figure out why they do this when giving pitch input:

After stage1 is finished and polished, I can start adding crazy stuff, wings with integrated landinggear,intakes, jet engines and so on.

[MisterFister]

1- No ailerons, you know the things that control roll, they are often placed near the end of the wings

1. Its not rolling...

Perhaps so, but I think Hodo's point was that maybe if you had ailerons, you could control the uncontrolled roll oscillation. (I'm speaking out my nose here, since I've never experienced your problem, but if Hodo's point was that a lifting surface goes completely without a control surface, then I speculate that shenanigans may result within the game.)

I can upload them to YouTube if you want a better view, but the wings are jumping about 4 times faster then they appear in the gifs.

(...)

4. Im using alot of mods.

http://i.imgur.com/oxXkqld.jpg

My next suggestion is for you to upload the .craft file for us to take a look at. For that to be helpful, we'd need to know more about the mods you've installed beyond just a folder listing in your GameData directory. (Many of those mods that I see are plugin related, and many of those mod writers publish several modpaks that all use the same consolidated folder, so a folder list will not provide a complete idea for a crafttester.)

[Donziboy2]

Perhaps so, but I think Hodo's point was that maybe if you had ailerons, you could control the uncontrolled roll oscillation. (I'm speaking out my nose here, since I've never experienced your problem, but if Hodo's point was that a lifting surface goes completely without a control surface, then I speculate that shenanigans may result within the game.)

I made a second craft using the same parent craft design and the wings worked, it still flew like a brick so I shelved it for a while, I actually switched gears and build a few other things today, I may give it another go later on.....

I did try ailerons and one of them flew off once it started jumping around...

[Hodo]

I made a second craft using the same parent craft design and the wings worked, it still flew like a brick so I shelved it for a while, I actually switched gears and build a few other things today, I may give it another go later on.....

I did try ailerons and one of them flew off once it started jumping around...

I have never had a aileron fly off? How did you have it attached?

[Donziboy2]

I have never had a aileron fly off? How did you have it attached?

To the wing, but the wing jumped so hard it hit the edge of the runway. I had it on the very edge so instead of breaking the wing it broke the aileron.

[Hodo]

To the wing, but the wing jumped so hard it hit the edge of the runway. I had it on the very edge so instead of breaking the wing it broke the aileron.

You seem to be having a lot of stability issues across the board. What kind of TWR are you getting on take off, what speed are you going at below 10km?

[Donziboy2]

You seem to be having a lot of stability issues across the board. What kind of TWR are you getting on take off, what speed are you going at below 10km?

Stability no, the wings jump on their own, none of the problem craft make it that high the engines usually fly off at or before takeoff, the planes can usually get to 5km, they will loose speed and stop jumping, then fall gain speed and start all over again.

Can we just drop this, I am tired of even looking at them and would like to move on.

[Tex_NL]

The reason I haven't yet added pWings to the techtree is that it wouldn't do much good for people playing the "vanilla" career mode. The stock tree does a very good job of marginalizing aircraft so no matter where I'd put pWings they'd be next to pointless.

A meaningful integration would include changing the entire tree and making additional parts, something I've looked into and determined to be a too big of a distraction, and out of scope for pWings. Something for later perhaps.

...

Changing the entire tree??? Making additional parts??? Why on earth would you need to do that? Just give the current part a realistic place.

Many people WANT pWing in career mode. By not adding pWing to the tech tree you're 'robbing' people of that.

And it isn't a lot of work either. The pack only contains five parts and you'll only need to add two lines of code per part.

[AbeS]

I think what he means is: when you unlock your first pwing (which would be like in the third column, if you remove all other wings) you don't need anything else, you can make any wing you want and there's no need for more tech nodes. That breaks the current plane tech tree

[Hodo]

Stability no, the wings jump on their own, none of the problem craft make it that high the engines usually fly off at or before takeoff, the planes can usually get to 5km, they will loose speed and stop jumping, then fall gain speed and start all over again.

Can we just drop this, I am tired of even looking at them and would like to move on.

Ok, your choice, just trying to figure out exactly what is happening. You are giving a lot of partial information it is hard to gather a complete picture without actually taking the craft file and flying it myself. Seeing as I do not have KSPI installed and probably won't anytime soon because I feel many of the engines are over powered for what I am going for, and all I want out of it is the precooler code information on how they work. So I can modify my B9 SABRE Pre-coolers to work the same way.

The only thing I can guess at this point is your wings are not firmly attached to the main body of the craft. This is causing them to flex and flap around throwing off your control of the craft. I could see by all the pictures you posted that the craft you made lacks sufficient control surfaces to counter these acts, and when you do add them you knock them off with pilot error and place blame elsewhere. Even with Pwings you need to have struts, not as many but you still need them. I run KJR+Pwing+B9 and I still need to use struts to make sure the wings don't flex outside of the designed limits.

But I am done helping you because you no longer want help, good luck with your endeavors.

[Donziboy2]

Ok, your choice, just trying to figure out exactly what is happening. You are giving a lot of partial information it is hard to gather a complete picture without actually taking the craft file and flying it myself. Seeing as I do not have KSPI installed and probably won't anytime soon because I feel many of the engines are over powered for what I am going for, and all I want out of it is the precooler code information on how they work. So I can modify my B9 SABRE Pre-coolers to work the same way.

The only thing I can guess at this point is your wings are not firmly attached to the main body of the craft. This is causing them to flex and flap around throwing off your control of the craft. I could see by all the pictures you posted that the craft you made lacks sufficient control surfaces to counter these acts, and when you do add them you knock them off with pilot error and place blame elsewhere. Even with Pwings you need to have struts, not as many but you still need them. I run KJR+Pwing+B9 and I still need to use struts to make sure the wings don't flex outside of the designed limits.

But I am done helping you because you no longer want help, good luck with your endeavors.

No engines, just B9, Mechjeb, and stock KSP parts. Knock yourself out... I added Deadly Reentry to my mod list and managed to kill the crew shortly after the engines flew off...

Seems like part clipping...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nndme9x5uykwghp/SSTO%20PW%20Flapping.craft