[0.23.5] Spherical and Toroidal Tank Pack (Updated 05/02/14) (New download link)

[Talisar]

There's actually a bit of wierd logic to why the largest ring that I made was the 10.5m diameter.

When I began modelling the first tank, I initially planned on making this pack in the same manner as I did the spheres, with each size having it's own model. This is why the model and texture names are TAL_Large_Toroidal_Tank instead of just TAL_Toroidal_Tank. It was originally going to be the first of several models. Personally, I like this because while the overall size of the major parts (such as the tank and hubs) change, the detail parts (such as the colored strip that I use for content identification) can remain the same diameter throughout the entire pack. I was going to have the spokes remain the same diameter between tank sizes as well, only changing the lengths.

During the process, I came to the conclusion that while I personally like the aesthetic of maintaining the details at a consistent size, it was at the price of an increased memory footprint for the pack as well as greatly increasing the work involved for relatively little gain. I could be wrong, but the impression I got from the responses to the spherical tanks was that the majority of people would have been happier with 1 tank model rescaled for each size.

So, I decided to go the route of rescaling a single model instead of making each distinct. Unfortunately, after I was completely done modelling and unwrapping and texturing, I found that by making the XXL tank, the hub spokes actually ended being thicker than the hub pieces. Fixing this would require either a redesign of the model to make the spokes thinner or going back and making the hub pieces thicker, neither of which I really wanted to do. So I just topped it off with the 10.5m one.

Looking at it now though, I suppose it wouldn't really matter if the spokes are thicker than the hub most of the time. Unless the hub piece is on the very end of the rocket, it wouldn't really be too noticeable. I intend on making downloads for the other fuel types that I included in the spherical pack and for empties as well, so I can make one for the XXL tank I originally planned too (14m diameter).

There you have it... a look into the ugly, chaotic workings of my design process. More of a meandering path through a dark forest than a clearly marked road from point A to point B. I tend to get to the end, but I generally have to bounce off some trees along the way .

[taniwha]

NeoAcario: are you sure about that 2.5m radius? Looking at the Toroidal tank, it looks to be 1.25m radius. (note, I haven't dled the latest to check)

[Talisar]

Taniwha, I am glad you joined us! You were going to get a PM soon to check my numbers . The tank sizes are:

XL: 4.5m major radius/1.5m minor diameter

L: 3m major radius/1m minor diameter

M: 1.875m major radius/0.625m minor diameter

S: 0.75m major radius/0.25m minor diameter

Major radius is from 0,0,0 to the centerline of the torus, minor diameter is the thickness of the torus.

-edit- oh, and to make it easier, I included my volume calculation in the cfgs

-edit part deux- fixed where I incorrectly wrote "diameter" instead of "radius", because maths

-edit the third- The original prototype toroidal had a 1.25m minor diameter. the new ones are a bit smaller. NeoAcario is using a formula that uses inner and outer radii of the torus for volume instead of centerline diameters and torus thickness, so I think that's where your confusion is.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Talisar

[Talisar]

http://www.endmemo.com/geometry/torus.php

New Large LFO Toroidal has a 3.75m outer radius and 2.5m inner radius

Volume is 24.095714m³

Surface Area is 77.106284m²

LFO is 1156.5/1413.5

Dry Mass is 6t

You're off a bit on the radii. Outer radius is 3.5m and inner is 2.5m. Using those numbers we come up with a volume of 14.804407m³ (it's in the cfg too I was ready for this)

So I am pretty sure my capacities are correct. As for the dry masses, I may be a bit off. I did quite a bit of fudging on those. I was also figuring in the mass of the spokes in my guesstimation.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Talisar

[NeoAcario]

You're off a bit on the radii. Outer radius is 3.5m and inner is 2.5m. Using those numbers we come up with a volume of 14.804407m³ (it's in the cfg too I was ready for this)

So I am pretty sure my capacities are correct. As for the dry masses, I may be a bit off. I did quite a bit of fudging on those.

Well crap... I was just eyeballing it. Damnit... you made those torii too damn skinny! So little volume! /cry

But if you leave them as-is the Large Toroidal should be 3.445t dry mass. Damnit.

~Steve

ps

Kinda odd... I only cared about comparing/checking for accuracy with these new tanks... I wonder how the current spheres compare. Let's check!

[Talisar]

Lol, the spheres better be right. We went over those numbers A LOT during the initial release. That's how I went from v1.0 to v1.5 over the course of a couple days. The new spheres are the same sizes/masses/capacities, just with more efficient models.

[NeoAcario]

So... dare to compare!

http://ncalculators.com/area-volume/cylinder-calculator.htm

Rockomax is 1.25m radius and 7.5m tall

Volume is 36.8304m³

Surface Area is 68.75m²

LFO is 2880/3520

Dry Mass is 4t

http://ncalculators.com/area-volume/sphere-calculator.htm

SP-L-1F LFO tank is 3.75m radius

Volume is 220.9821m³

Surface Area is 176.7857m²

LFO is 17280/21120

Dry Mass is 13.5

Well... you're LFO is spot on... unfortunately your dry mass is about 3.215 tons too high.

Dry mass on the 7.5m spheres should be closer to 10.2857

~Steve

ps

I guess I can make do with skinny toroidals =P

[Talisar]

So... dare to compare!

http://ncalculators.com/area-volume/cylinder-calculator.htm

Rockomax is 1.25m radius and 7.5m tall

Volume is 36.8304m³

Surface Area is 68.75m²

LFO is 2880/3520

Dry Mass is 4t

http://ncalculators.com/area-volume/sphere-calculator.htm

SP-L-1F LFO tank is 3.75m radius

Volume is 220.9821m³

Surface Area is 176.7857m²

LFO is 17280/21120

Dry Mass is 13.5

Well... you're LFO is spot on... unfortunately your dry mass is about 3.215 tons too high.

Dry mass on the 7.5m spheres should be closer to 10.2857

~Steve

ps

I guess I can make do with skinny toroidals =P

I see your maths, and I raise you: Taniwha's from 50 pages ago!

Ok, I made a bit of a mistake with my proposition for the tank dry masses: I forgot that as a tank gets smaller, the required thickness for the same internal pressure also gets smaller, leading to the mass of the tank being directly proportional to the cube of the radius for the same internal pressure.

This time, using the small tank as the basis, with the ratios of 1:1.5:3, I think the masses should be 0.5t, 1.6875t and 13.5t. This improves the mass ratio of the medium tank, but worsens the mass ratio of the large. The resulting ratios will be S:15.22, M:15.222..., L:15.1563 (hmm, I believe some more fuel can be squeezed into the large tank...). Still a nice improvement over the cylindrical tanks, but 48.7775 (current large) is a bit silly in my opinion.

For anyone that wants to check my math:

ri = inner radius

ro = outer radius

Ai = inner area = 4 * pi * ri ** 2

Ar = cross section ring area = pi * (ro ** 2 - ri ** 2)

P = internal pressure

S = tensile strength of material

P * Ai = S * Ar

P * 4 * pi * ri ** 2 = S * pi * (ro ** 2 - ri ** 2)

4 * P / S = (ro ** 2 - ri ** 2) / ri ** 2

ri = ro / sqrt (1 + 4 * P / S)

d = material density

M = shell mass = d * (4/3) * pi * (ro ** 3 - ri ** 3)

M = d * (4/3) * pi * (ro ** 3 - (ro / sqrt (1 + 4 * P / S)) ** 3)

M = d * (4/3) * pi * ro ** 3 * (1 - (1 + 4 * P / S) ** (-3/2))

M = k * ro ** 3

Hmm, I just did some math, and sure enough, the large tank is not as full as it could be: 17280:21120 instead of the current 17200:21022. Better yet, 17280:21120 is exactly 9:11. This time, I used the medium tank as the basis for fuel quantity as its LFO ratio is exactly 9:11.

[edit]Just for completeness, with my suggestions, the masses and ratios would be S:0.5,7.61,15.22 M:1.6875,25.6875,15.222... L:13.5,205.5,15.222... Also, the current mass ratio of the medium tank is 13.

[NeoAcario]

I see your maths, and I raise you: Taniwha's from 50 pages ago!

I was actually just about to post about this... heh. So yeah.. the current spheres' math is perfect.

~Steve

[Talisar]

Lol, Taniwha is my go-to person to ensure my numbers are in the right ballpark. I actually intended on getting my masses checked before releasing the toroidal pack, but I know Taniwha is busy with EL and your enthusiasm is contagious. So I decided to take my best shot and hope it's not too far off and can be zeroed in when I do my first update. I actually tried to aim a little heavy, because lowering masses is never a problem

[Xzabath]

I love these tanks, the only thing is how many pages it takes up, is there anyway you could do like a stretchy tank kind of thingy, have one tank that you can change contents and size. That would be kick ass. But ill still mouse click a few more times anyways hehe.

[Talisar]

Yeah, the pack does suffer from feature bloat. It started off as a single tank, then 3 different sizes, then several different fuels, then 2 attachment sizes for each tank, them more fuel types.... All from suggestions or requests that were very easy to implement, so I did. Next thing I know my pack adds 150 different tanks on a full install. Believe it or not, I've actually passed on some suggestions that would have made it twice the size that it is now.

I am looking at some plugin options that will allow the pack to be shrunk down to a single tank of each size and add the ability to change fuel levels and types in the VAB. I'm not a programmer, however, so I have to depend on other people's work to accomplish this. My main concern with this option is that game updates and/or plugin conflicts could make the pack unusable (at least until the plugin is updated), but I think that is the only way to clear out the pages and pages of spheretanks and still offer the variety that is currently available.

[Xzabath]

Cool, I call all my probes sumos, because they have a big fat belly, sphere tank as a core solar panels for arms , some of my long distance probes have a couple nukes for legs. And of course the sphere probe core head and a couple red eyes from b9. hehe.

[NeoAcario]

Wait a sec... you said you were going to make a 14m toroidal... did you plan on making a 14m Sphere too? Wait.. you were going to keep the sphere ratios. So.. does that mean 11.25m sphere?

~Steve

[NeoAcario]

Also... something seems to be broken with the hubs. It's no longer going to the center of the hub. It's sticking the tank on the side opposite the parent part. Might want to take a look at that.

~Steve

EDIT:

Or is that intentional so you can more easily see the pipe spokes?

[usulrasolas]

I am personally having dead oxy containers in all spherical oxy only containers. No set max or current for empty or full parts.

[NeoAcario]

Also... I'm having a hard time building a Kethane miner out of a 7.5m sphere tank that I like. I find myself sticking to my K-82K for now. Delivers around 72,000 K per trip from Minmus to my LKO station... so it's not bad.

Anyone have any pics of sphere tank based K miners? I'm up for some ideas.

~Steve

EDIT:

Wooo.. maybe I'll try something like a Virus model. Might look a little funny though with that massive tank on top.

Edited October 15, 2013 by NeoAcario

[Talisar]

Also... something seems to be broken with the hubs. It's no longer going to the center of the hub. It's sticking the tank on the side opposite the parent part. Might want to take a look at that.

~Steve

EDIT:

Or is that intentional so you can more easily see the pipe spokes?

When you're building, make sure that you have parts placed on either side of the hub before you place the torus. This happens because the nodes are so close to each other, even using the smallest ones. If you have parts taking up the nodes on either end of the hub, the center one will be the only one available for the torus to snap to.

I am personally having dead oxy containers in all spherical oxy only containers. No set max or current for empty or full parts.

Those tanks hold oxygen for the Ioncross crew support mod, not oxidizer. You won't see anything at all in them unless you have that mod installed. There aren't any dedicated oxidizer tanks in the pack

Edited October 15, 2013 by Talisar

[NeoAcario]

When you're building, make sure that you have parts placed on either side of the hub before you place the torus. This happens because the nodes are so close to each other, even using the smallest ones. If you have parts taking up the nodes on either end of the hub, the center one will be the only one available for the torus to snap to.

I know man, I read it the first time you said it. So odd... restarted KSP and now it's working. It was a very odd bug. It would only sit on the opposite side of the original parent part. I even tried reseating both the parent and child part a number of times and kept having the problem. Oh well... it fixed itself.

So... just to confirm... you are or are not thinking about including larger spheres? ^.^

~Steve

[Talisar]

Since each size sphere is a distinct model, no plans to make a larger one at this time. However, if your heart is set on a bigger sphere, resizing a type 1 medium by 3x would give you a sphere with an 11.25m radius and 3.75m endcaps. And it would have the smaller cap aesthetic that you mentioned preferring.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Talisar

[NeoAcario]

Since each size sphere is a distinct model, no plans to make a larger one at this time. However, if your heart is set on a bigger sphere, resizing a type 1 medium by 3x would give you a sphere with an 11.25m radius and 3.75m endcaps. And it would have the smaller cap aesthetic that you mentioned preferring.

Yup.. tried that for a bit. But I despise 3.75m hubs. pffft.

It's all good. Not even sure if I really want to use a bigger sphere. Was just asking.

~Steve

[a__gun]

There's actually a bit of wierd logic to why the largest ring that I made was the 10.5m diameter.....

...the detail parts (such as the colored strip that I use for content identification) can remain the same diameter throughout the entire pack. I was going to have the spokes remain the same diameter between tank sizes as well, only changing the lengths.

...increased memory footprint for the pack as well as greatly increasing the work involved for relatively little gain....

I know it would take a redesign, but could you not go for middle ground? Have each toroidal tank made up of two models - the ring itself in one and the spokes/detail in another. That way the ring can be scaled independantly of the spokes, and you still are only using two models for all of the tanks Can use this approach for any of the parts in this pack really...

[NeoAcario]

Talisar... your parts don't seem to work with the welder... wonder why.

~Steve

[taniwha]

Waah, I make an off-handed comment about radii, go off to work, and 3 pages of posts later...

Talisar: not just EL, but DR too, and work (I could do without the last, but I need the money).

I've grabbed the toroidal tank zip and I'll take a look.

Edited October 15, 2013 by taniwha

[Talisar]

I know it would take a redesign, but could you not go for middle ground? Have each toroidal tank made up of two models - the ring itself in one and the spokes/detail in another. That way the ring can be scaled independantly of the spokes, and you still are only using two models for all of the tanks Can use this approach for any of the parts in this pack really...

I thought about this, but went the route I did so that any part could be easily modified in the cfg to act as a hub for the toroidal tanks by adding a stack node at the center. Doing it the way you suggest would have worked with the hubs, but for other parts it would have looked to be floating there unsupported. I also considered doing the spokes as a completely different mesh and building the models using rescales and [MODEL] nodes, but that was getting more and more complicated.

Talisar... your parts don't seem to work with the welder... wonder why.

I read in his thread that welder seems not to work with parts that have textures defined in [MODEL] nodes, which mine does. He seemed confident that it is an easy fix though. Keep an eye out for it.

Waah, I make an off-handed comment about radii, go off to work, and 3 pages of posts later...

Talisar: not just EL, but DR too, and work (I could do without the last, but I need the money).

I've grabbed the toroidal tank zip and I'll take a look.

Lol, I was gonna hit you up for it anyhow. Your comment just made me realise I hadn't yet. As always, I appreciate the help!