Duna Permanent Outpost Mission Architecture Challenge

[Patupi]

New update on Project Archimedes. Last three missions launched, one using a Kerbin slingshot maneuver. Nearly in the home stretch.

(EDIT: and Epsilon and Eta are on the ground, 32 more Kerbals on the ground of Duna! Updated. Now just ferrying to and from the Heron Orbital Habitat in preparation for the return journey)

Edited August 31, 2013 by Patupi

[Patupi]

OK, mission is effectively done. Still got the return to Kerbin but that doesn't affect the score so I'm posting it up here and in the Project report.

Early mission score: 118days with 8 Kerbals + 150days with another 8 Kerbals = 2144

Early mission NIMLKO: 12 launches, 28 tons each, total 336

Early mission efficiency: 6.38

Sustained mission score: 650 days with 8 Kerbals

618 days with 8 Kerbals

426 days with 8 Kerbals

421 days with 8 Kerbals

198 days with 16 Kerbals

190 days with 16 Kerbals

(Note, with the switch over of crew on day 815 the first '650 days' is part the first crew, and part the last crew taking their place)

total score=23,128

Sustained mission NIMLKO: 24 launches, 28 tons each, total 672

Sustained mission efficiency: 34.4

Achievements:

Mission execution: 3 (once I do the Kerbin return mission. Soon)

Crew mobility: 0 Not enough rovers

Base mobility: 3

Crew safety: 2

Mission robustness: 2

Total mission Achievements: 10

Edited September 1, 2013 by Patupi

[Patupi]

And mission is done! Thanks again Sturmstiger for putting up such a challenging mission!

Project Archimedes

[HueHue]

I'm considering taking the points hit and doing a Duna One mission, but I have a few questions.

- Would the score deduction stay the same (or even apply at all?) if a return mission is offered in case of emergency, planned for and available, but never activated? (ergo Strive to Stay)

- Does having rescue missions booked into the launch schedule count for crew survivability?

- Can crew living quarters be "carried over"? For example, I land 3 Mk 1-2 command pods. Each has 3 seats. The first two launch with a single Kerbal, and the third launches with 3 kerbals and a smaller hab module. This is 5 kerbals across 10 seats. Does it count for long term hab?

- Does a Duna-to-stay mission profile subtract half the points from every category, or just early mission bonus? It doesn't make much sense to dock the score for, say, having a mobile base just because the base isn't going back.

edit: fixed a bit of kerbal math

[Donziboy2]

Sorry guys I have given up on this for a while, I feel that If i'm going to plan out a huge 1000 day mission I better have something to do other then fly Transports back and forth and land things. Until there is more science or building to do im going to go play around with other things.

[KeithStone]

Im very near giving up myself, with the number of mods i'm using and the fact that kerbal is only running 32 bit, im getting serious lag even though my CPU is only 19% in use and memory only around 30%. I still have five more modules to attach to the caladrius, and i'm not sure im willing to spend a whole day burning for duna at 1 frame a second...

[HueHue]

I've got a sketch of a 500 day mission plan now, easily extendable out to 1000 days. It's a Duna-to-stay mission, with possible rescue of all crew every ~500 days (every second launch window). The launcher is 25 tons to easy LKO, which my landers push at 29 tons (I have to dig into the lander's fuel for circuralization burn). I rounded this to 30 for simplicity and cost reduction; we won't be in a big rush to build the rockets.

FIRST WINDOW:

- 1st lander launches on TDI. Carries 1 Kerbal (seating capacity 3), a two seat rover, and 750 units of supply.

//Not much time to prep much else. Total supplies at landing: 700 units of supply, living space for 1.5 kerbals, two rover seats. Base sort of able to use rovers for mobility but this is very, very inadvisable.

SECOND LAUNCH WINDOW:

- 2nd lander launched 80 days before window void of crew, carries extra living space instead of rover. Extra living space burns up on Duna entry.

- 3rd lander prepped for launch 20 days before launch window, with 1 kerbal and a rover. Launched 10 days before, if Buzz Aldrin Base on Duna continues to give O-K signal.

- At time of 3rd lander launch, two kerbal crew is lifted to 2nd lander by means of semi-reusable Ares rocket (crew transfer, free launch).

- If O-K signal is not given by Buzz Aldrin base, third launch is scrapped. 2nd lander is deorbited, Ares rocket put back in hangar. Instead of 3rd lander being launched at Window minus 10 days, rescue craft launched.

//If successful and no rescue mission is needed, the base will have the following supplies once landed on Duna, fulfilling primary objectives: 4 kerbals, 2 rovers (with 2 seats each), 3 hab modules, ~2000 units of supply (500 days for each kerbal, enough to survive until next rescue window).

THIRD LAUNCH WINDOW:

- 4th lander, same configuration as 2nd lander. Launch at W-20, crewed at W-4, followed by TMI.

- 1500 units of supply, unmanned.

//This will bring the total kerbals on Duna to 6, and give them a very healthy chest of supplies. Future missions will launch with 2000 units of supply. Additional kerbals would require either tighter launch windows or additional funding.

FOURTH THROUGH TO DURATION LAUNCH WINDOWS:

- 2000 units supply (unmanned)

- Unmanned rescue ship for 6 kerbals on 10 day launch notice

- 5th lander ready for replacement of any kerbals lost through stupidity or natural causes, on 20 day launch notice.

[Patupi]

Keithstone, I have to admit I purposefully used few model adding mods specifically for that reason. And I wasn't running 0.21.1! Is it possible you could isolate mods your ships aren't using and delete them? I know it's a bit much but I'm familiar with the lag problems. My three payload missions averaged about 400 parts, and when I docked Destiny lander to that it went up to nearly 700 parts, and the latter left me with about 2 frames a second! Not good. I can tell you low frame rate and plotting an interplanetary burn aren't fun!

Hope you get things working Keithstone.

And HueHue, have you considered Ioncross? It really saves on supply problems. With that you shouldn't have difficulty in getting 8 Kerbals to Duna in the first launch window with a 25ton payload, though getting them back without Kethane might be another issue! Oh but remember if you do use Ioncross don't go beyond the second to last time warp. The last one REALLY eats up the Ioncross oxygen supply, recycler or no!

[kookoo_gr]

A small update on my part. I have completed the design and building of my modules along with my 50 ton lifter and they only need a small tweak , for aesthetics, i have compiled a plan that stretches up to day 1700 with the end of the supplies on Kapricorn One base. But since i am working 16 hour shifts from the last week and with a preparation for my vacations along with some side projects i have started, i don't have time to play KSP, so the whole project is on stand by for the time being. I am not giving up on this challenge since i am almost ready to start launching my modules to Duna, but it may take some time to start playing KSP again. Worse case scenario the 0.22 update may catch up on me

[Raptor831]

This is a lot harder to fly than to plan! Ran into some frustrations on my plan, and had to do something else for a while. I'll finish this eventually!

[KeithStone]

i thought about deleting parts I dont use, but i think the issue is mainly part count. I havent even gotten the most complex pieces up yet. I might go back and simplify some of the launches but i dont think anything short of a full redesign would save me. After all, the game is no fun if you cant play it the way you want. I'm sure that I'll come back at some point, but for now im going to take a break and mull all this over, or perhaps just abandon the challenge and do a lets play series without the need of launching everything in big chunks...

[Patupi]

There are quite a few mods out there with larger sections, or the various 'welded parts' mods. You could attempt to replace components to reduce parts count without reducing the effectiveness of your ships? Just a thought.

[Bioman222]

This is looking awesome!

[KeithStone]

I'm not using a lot in the way welded parts would help except in the launcher which runs fine. I'm carrying forward, just letting mechjeb run a manuver node for 30 minutes to return from the mun. Won't be recording much of these parts, but once I get to duna things should get better. It'll just take a lot longer than expected to get through the lag.

[Patupi]

Well best of luck Keithstone, however you continue, and remember what the great one said 'Never give up, never surrender!'

[ThreeMartiniLaunch]

is up.

No new launches, but it's all about the massive Space Truck by Four and its cargo.

[Speeding Mullet]

If updated my Duna Navigator mission report finally, sorry for the delays. I'm approaching day 601 in the mission schedule and getting along well. I can't seem to hyperlink at the moment, but you will find it in the mission reports.

[Dunbaratu]

I might want to give this one a go, but first I need to ask a precise question about the term "payload" versus "launch vehicle". Since the challenge has stipulations about these I need to know exactly what constitutes the "seam" between launch vehicle and payload.

Particularly, is the stage of the vehicle that gets you from Kerbin orbit to Duna orbit part of the "payload" or part of the "launch vehicle"? From the point of view of a Kerbin launch, it's payload since it's not fired until after getting out of Kerbin atmosphere. But from the point of view of getting all the way to Duna it's NOT part of the payload since I'll be disconnecting it and leaving it behind before entering Duna atmosphere.

[Speeding Mullet]

I think I am right in saying that the payload is the launch vehicles nominal capacity to LKO, and therefore the transfer to LDO is undertaken by the payload and not the launch vehicle.

[Patupi]

Yes. To my knowledge the 'payload' is just what is hauled to LKO. There is a little variation in what is considered LKO or a 'parking orbit' for you payloads to be deposited in, but generally it's somewhere between 75km and 100km. I chose 80km as my parking orbit.

[Death Engineering]

I agree that the launch vehicle carries an inert payload to LKO which then activates and heads to Duna. This is the way I played this challenge and my LKO was 85km.

[meyst]

Steven, my understanding is that 'payload capability' of the lift vehicle describes the mass it is able to push up to you LKO parking orbit (Lifters are rated on what they can put into orbit of Kerbin not what they can push to Duna). What you put on the rocket for payload is not necessarily limited by this so long as the lift vehicle can make it to space and the 'payload' can circularize the orbit.

I am however not sure if you are asking if you can rate your lifter based on mass to Duna instead of mass to LKO if you use it for the trans Duna burn or if you are asking if you can take a lighter payload to orbit and use the lifter to fire it to Duna. In the first case that is clearly a no, your lifter is rated based on what it puts into your Kerbin parking orbit. The second is an absolutely, but why would you? As doing so would result in significantly lower useful payload to Duna.

It is great to see so many other people making so much progress!

My project has been going at a snails pace due to time constraints and intensive 'research and development' of AGA cycler space craft. Specifically lifting the required bizarre looking wing configurations into orbit on top of a fixed lifter design in a way that doesn't cause the lifter to be compromised has so far resulted in continuous frustration.

Edited September 6, 2013 by meyst

[MathigNihilcehk]

Hello all! This challenge sounds interesting. I was thinking of working on a method to obtain all of the achievements and get seventy-two Kerbals on Duna, around day 500 or 750. It'd use only stock parts, but perhaps with mechanical Jeb to help with suicide burns, deltaV calculations, and target rendezvous. Ideally I'd need an 81 payload launcher that is 51% recoverable. However, I might be able to work with a 23 or 22 payload launcher. I have a few questions before I start testing this stuff out.

1: For mobility, how mobile does it have to be? Is 0.1m/s fast enough, or must it be able to maintain 23m/s without flipping, at night, on rugged terrain, and must there be lights on all vehicles?(Do the kerbals sleep at all?)

2: For crew safety, how does the piloting error work? Wasting 20% available delta V is one thing, but spending 20% delta V going the wrong way at the wrong time can result in a 40% of expected loss of delta V or worse.

3: How much delta V should I plan on using to get from Duna surface to Duna circular @ 100km? Some wiki says 1500-2000 delta V to get to 45km Duna orbit, but it also says 1700 delta V for a kerbin-duna round-trip. Of course, getting to a higher orbit means more fighting gravity and less tangental speed, so it'd make sense that a 100km orbit is easier than a 45km orbit. Perhaps I'll want a 1000km orbit, if it's much easier.

4: NERVA disposal... How do you dispose of a NERVA engine? Ideally, I'd just leave them in a circular orbit. No harm done to either planet, as per the restriction's intent, plus, they will have docking ports, robotics, and 20% fuel left.

5: How fast is too fast for reentry effects. I'd assume if it lands in-tact it's fine, since the fuel tanks survive being next to a 3000 degree engine...

6: For the 1.5x bonus, is that 50% of the total launch vehicle including payload, or just the launcher vehicle?

7: Can the top stage of the launch vehicle have too much fuel, so that once it jettisons your craft in parking orbit, it can retro-burn back to the planet for recovery(and perhaps slow it's reentry); this will mean the top stage gets into parking orbit but won't be counted as payload, and won't assist beyond parking orbit.(to assist with recovery)

8: For simplicity can I say that every capsule/pod contains fuel for 10*maximum kerbal count? (to avoid swapping kerbals on consecutive short-term missions) That tiny bit of extra food is quite important.

9: If I say some RCS tanks are kerbal food, can I still use other, non-assigned, RCS? I'd have to transfer RCS from the fuel tank to the food tanks to reverse the craft's automatic use of all tanks simultaneously.

I'm rather addicted to locating loopholes. IE: 20% fuel wasting is fine, but 20.01% will kill everyone. This may be fine, but without a firm border, the lobster red flames might be invisible to me. I may just find that reentry mod to make sure I don't mess that up. Anyone have a link to the related thread? Also, how difficult is it? I routinely de-orbit refuelers from 300km or so, and come in with 1.5-2km/s velocity max. I hit the ground at ~5m/s(after the acceleration snaps my main tank off the parachute from 10g's of deceleration) Slowing down to 1km/s and 10m/s (w/ tank) on splashdown would be do-able, but much below that would be nigh-impossible with the atmospheric rules(can't switch craft while in atmosphere), and time management. (Do I circularize my payload, or save my first stages?)

Additionally, I'd like to double check that someone hasn't already done a launch similar to this, or is significantly working on it.(aiming for the moon, and others have already made it to Pluto/routinely made it to the moon) If so, I probably shouldn't waste my time. Or if the latest KSP makes this too easy, (Coming to a sword fight at range with a machine gun and rocket launcher). Personally, stock-only parts and a couple realistic mods would be quite the achievement.

[Patupi]

As far as mobility is concerned just to move at all on wheels was considered mobile I believe. Given you don't know the terrain at your landing spot (unless you've done a LOT of surveying on 0.21.1) I'd suggest against going for a very slow moving lander. Any slope will stop it cold, or worse lead it rolling backwards! I believe Sturmstiger did say at one point if the bases can take off and land repeatedly (presumably from refueling) then that also is considered 'mobile'

Delta V calculations: well Sturmstiger did list the transit dV at the beginning of the thread, and they are an upper limit (it will change as the orbits change over time) Also the times of the Hohmann windows he gives are an approximation too, again as orbits match up differently at different times. As to launching/landing at Duna, I'd suggest getting hyperedit, not for the challenge itself but to test your designs. Consider it the equivelant of simulations done before hand at KSC. From my experience 1500 seems adequate to launch from Duna to low Duna orbit. Bear in mind with different drag/mass ratios this will change slightly. Though with Duna's tenuous atmosphere not as much as on Kerbin

Re-enty and aerobraking at Duna from a normal situation (ie, normal Hohmann transfer speeds or normal LDO re-entry speeds) don't SEEM to generate re-entry effects, but in general most entrants have put heat shields on anyway, just to be safe. Using Deadly Re-entry would be helpful. Just do a search on Spaceport for that mod (This is on my Tablet as my comp is fried at the moment so I'm limited on what I have access to). The rule on re-entry and Aerobraking is that if there are NO visual effects at the worst point then you're OK. Just post a pic or vid to prove it and you'll be fine without a heatshield.

Most of the entrants I've seen have not disposed of their Nerva's at all. The ships using Nukes are kept in space and shuttle back and forth between Duna and Kerbin. I suppose in the end they could be de-orbited on any airless body to destroy them (Say Ike or Mun). The rules only state you can't use them or dispose of them in Duna or Kerbin's atmosphere.

As to the 'reusable launch vehicle' percentage... it's not that hard to get way more than 50% resueable anyway, which ever way you look at it. But I assumed it was 50% of the unloaded vehicle as the loaded vehicle will change slightly with slightly different loads. The rated payload is the MAX the launcher can take. It's unlikely all your payloads will be exactly this in practice.

The last stage of the launcher can definitely have too much fuel. I did this a lot as my launcher could actually lift way more than it's rated payload to LKO. As long as you don't use this to lift your payload to a higher orbit it's fine. It's not part of the rules but it does seem consistent with them to tidy Kerbin orbit by de-orbiting your launcher's non-reusable sections when you're done with them.

If you go by the letter of the rules I guess you could say the supply is food beyond the 10day limit, but if you're going to be that picky about it you'll need to plot exactly when you launch your personel shuttle to fill your mission in orbit with Kerbals. I think in general people have calculated based on total time and not deducted the 10 days from the supply just to be safe. Bear in mind if you use Ioncross or other life support mod this doesn't really apply any more as those mods REQUIRE supply all the time (for ioncross the vessel has to be active, but still in principle...)

Using the RCS/Liquid fuel storage for supply remember you can shut off a tank from being used in KSP. Right click and tick the little green arrow on the right and that tank won't get used if you want it to only be supplies. Then you can use the rest of the tanks as RCS. Just state somewhere how much of the RCS on that ship is for supplies and I'm pretty sure Sturmstiger won't have a problem with it.

I can't comment on Deadly re-entry really as I haven't used it I'm afraid.

I'm not sure what you mean with the last paragraph, though I'm assuming those are euphemisms As for comparable efforts check out the listing for the 'In Situ' mission that NeilC did. He's the current leader on the scoreboard. He used Kethane a lot both in Kerbin system and at Duna and sent a lot of Kerbals there. See if that is comparable to what you're planning.

Hope you enjoy your attempt at this Challenge MathigNihilcehk. It's certainly one of the more interesting challenges I've seen!

[MathigNihilcehk]

Thanks for the answers. I'll get started debating with myself on some of the core details: Report structure/Launch Payload/Surprise bonuses/etc. IE: Should I try and use video, or novel-type, or scientific report, or minimal report... Should I go 21 or 22 or 23 mass... What type of surprise should I prepare...

I'll get back to y'all once one of us comes up with an agreeable solution...

[insert Gollum voices arguing with himself]

[EDIT 2nd][No, let me speak!]

Another question, should I try and put the whole thing on a video footage(stealing a brilliant idea from someone else attempting this challenge ), like Fraps, or should I stick with pictures. If so, where does one learn how to use such sorcery as Fraps with KSP? I know Kurt suffered from some issues with that and scene changing, etc. Also a potential free video-editer would be nice, if I go that route, since it'll likely be a ton of footage, and I'll want to [] photo-shop [] I mean speed portions of it up. Hehehe...

Status Summary:

TLDR: Ready to begin testing!

Launch-craft: CHECK!

Report type: Experimental report format, but with a hint of role-play, as the chief manager of the whole project. This is excluding testing, of course. Potential for video overlay to display how [] awesome the explosions are [] I mean, how safe everything is...

Score estimates:

3,672 Early

30,600 Total

11.12 Early Efficiency

44.87 Total efficiency

Achievement score of 12

If everything goes well. I still need to test all my craft in action, so this may change quite a bit if it turns out I can't get off Duna, or land on it with the fuel I've allotted them, or if the game doesn't like my over 500 part super-awesome rover... (The surprise)

PS: I'll extend the report period to day 1195 for the sake of realism. After that everything cycles equivalently every 228 days. Technically all modules make their appearance by approximately day 1000, but the newest module won't see real use until approximately day 1175, hence the extension. I'm also thinking of working on using Mun for a gravity assist, with Ike as well for some deceleration for easier orbit maneuvering. Perhaps I could even do an Ike/ Kerbin assist on the return trip.

PSS: This attempt will be unlike any other... While it won't achieve #1 on anything, except perhaps achievements, it might achieve #2, and it is entirely in stock parts, except Mechanical Jeb. It's also incredibly safe on paper... And that 500 part rover

PSSS: If I listened to Jeb on the planning... (Really fast, Massive, Huge Explosions) am I doing something wrong?

Edited September 8, 2013 by MathigNihilcehk