[WIP][1.1.3] Large Structural/Station Components [Image Heavy]

[Mihara]

I quite like the bright colours.

I second that. There aren't enough bright and clean things in Kerbal universe.

[udk_lethal_d0se]

I'll create a variant Image and let you guys & gals decide.

[Moon Goddess]

Oh my I was just going to ask you for colored ones for other materials.

[udk_lethal_d0se]

Found a possible way to keep everyone happy, colorful labels.

This is an example of the Atmosphere Storage Tank.

[BigFatStupidHead]

This is really nice stuff. I'm definitely going to grab a copy.

[loppnessmonsta]

I like the tag on the end, but that can be covered up, since that's also an attachment node. I typically prefer color coded stripes to indicate storage type, but I'm not sure what would be a good looking way to put them on those. Maybe color-code the pipes?

Tell you what, though. That orange and grey tank looks sexy, like a round version of the Rockomax tank. Maybe do a "Default skin" and then throw up extra skin styles in a separate download for people who prefer them? I know that'd be more work for you, but I think it might be worth it.

Edited June 3, 2013 by loppnessmonsta

[Gaius]

- Large Storage Tank (Currently holds 1440 Liguid Fuel, 1720 Oxidizer, has a Dry Mass of 5 and a Fill Mass of 21).

Bwah? Um... it looks absolutely lovely, but those stats are out-of-whack with the stock parts. Compare to the stock tank that holds 1440 LF & 1720 O2 and has a dry mass of 2:

That tank fits inside this one with room to spare. In fact, (warning: incoming maths) the volume of a cylinder is its radius squared times pi times height, and the volume of a sphere is 4/3 pi times radius cubed. I don't know the exact measurements here, but in the pic the cylinder's radius is 125 pixels and the sphere's radius is 225 pixels. You can't measure the height of the cylinder since it's not an orthographic view, but let's assume 400 pixels for now (it's a bit less than the diameter of the sphere, which is 450). That leads to the stock part having a volume of about 19.6 million cubic units. The sphere has a volume of 47.7 million cubic units. It seems a bit absurd that the tank over 2.4 times the size holds the same amount of fuel.

Also, as a sphere, it has less surface area than an equivalent cylinder (indeed it has the minimum possible surface area for its volume) and is structurally stronger. It probably shouldn't have 2.5 times the dry mass, probably not even double the dry mass, although perhaps so with the extra bits on the bottom.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Gaius
Updated figures, had obviously incorrect height estimate on the cylinder first time

[udk_lethal_d0se]

Bwah? Um... it looks absolutely lovely, but those stats are out-of-whack with the stock parts. Compare to the stock tank that holds 1440 LF & 1720 O2:

That tank fits inside this one with room to spare. In fact, (warning: incoming maths) the volume of a cylinder is its radius squared times pi times height, and the volume of a sphere is 4/3 pi times radius cubed. I don't know the exact measurements here, but in the pic the cylinder's radius is 125 pixels and the sphere's radius is 225 pixels. You can't measure the height of the cylinder since it's not an orthographic view, but let's assume 400 pixels for now (it's a bit less than the diameter of the sphere, which is 450). That leads to the stock part having a volume of about 19.6 million cubic units. The sphere has a volume of 47.7 million cubic units. It seems a bit absurd that the tank over 2.4 times the size holds the same amount of fuel...

I actually based it on the Jumbo 64 Tank (1m Radius x 6m Height) having a volume of 18.84955592153876 cubic meters and my tank (1.8m Radius) having a volume of 24.429024474314232 cubic meters.

Now, I'm not saying the numbers are perfect. However, I thought it was acceptable to give my tank the equivalent amount of resource storage as the Jumbo 64.

Jumbo 64 holding a total resource amount of 6400 units with a density of 0.005, my tank holding 51200 units with a density of 0.000625.

I'm in great error if this is wrong.

[Gaius]

I actually based it on the Jumbo 64 Tank (1m Radius x 6m Height) having a volume of 18.84955592153876 cubic meters and my tank (1.8m Radius) having a volume of 24.429024474314232 cubic meters.

Now, I'm not saying the numbers are perfect. However, I thought it was acceptable to give my tank the equivalent amount of resource storage as the Jumbo 64.

Jumbo 64 holding a total resource amount of 6400 units with a density of 0.005, my tank holding 51200 units with a density of 0.000625.

I'm in great error if this is wrong.

The Jumbo 64 holds 2880 LF + 3520 O2. My back of the envelope calculation says that's double the 1440 LF + 1760 O2 content of your tank...

[udk_lethal_d0se]

The Jumbo 64 holds 2880 LF + 3520 O2. My back of the envelope calculation says that's double the 1440 LF + 1760 O2 content of your tank...

I'll have a look at reworking the values, I obviously made a calculated error.

[Gaius]

I'll have a look at reworking the values, I obviously made a calculated error.

Cool. While you're at it... if you want to keep it the same capacity as the Jumbo 64, it should not have a dry mass of 5 when the Jumbo 64 has a dry mass of 4. As a spherically shaped tank, it ought to weigh less (that's the reason to use spherical tanks, after all -- they're harder to work with in a lot of ways, but they save mass), and with more than double the volume holding an equivalent content, it's actually less dense, so the walls can be even thinner.

[Talisar]

I just had this same discussion while getting the capacities of my tanks in the right ballpark. I used the following density values (as figured out by greys in another thread:

LF/Oxy = 173.913 units/m^3

Monopropellant = 129.87 units/m^3

Xenon = 4875 units/m^3

So, if your tank has a volume of 24.43 cubic meters, then it should contain 1,911.6 units of LiquidFuel and 2,336.4 units of Oxidizer.... assuming I did my math correctly. (Not a good assumption, as I had to make changes to mine several times ) However, with a radius of 1.8m it would be slightly smaller than the medium tank I made, and these numbers seem to reflect that.

Also, with regards to dry masses, taniwha did a LOT of calculating, and maybe that will aid you as well:

Ok, I made a bit of a mistake with my proposition for the tank dry masses: I forgot that as a tank gets smaller, the required thickness for the same internal pressure also gets smaller, leading to the mass of the tank being directly proportional to the cube of the radius for the same internal pressure.

This time, using the small tank as the basis, with the ratios of 1:1.5:3, I think the masses should be 0.5t, 1.6875t and 13.5t. This improves the mass ratio of the medium tank, but worsens the mass ratio of the large. The resulting ratios will be S:15.22, M:15.222..., L:15.1563 (hmm, I believe some more fuel can be squeezed into the large tank...). Still a nice improvement over the cylindrical tanks, but 48.7775 (current large) is a bit silly in my opinion.

For anyone that wants to check my math:

ri = inner radius

ro = outer radius

Ai = inner area = 4 * pi * ri ** 2

Ar = cross section ring area = pi * (ro ** 2 - ri ** 2)

P = internal pressure

S = tensile strength of material

P * Ai = S * Ar

P * 4 * pi * ri ** 2 = S * pi * (ro ** 2 - ri ** 2)

4 * P / S = (ro ** 2 - ri ** 2) / ri ** 2

ri = ro / sqrt (1 + 4 * P / S)

d = material density

M = shell mass = d * (4/3) * pi * (ro ** 3 - ri ** 3)

M = d * (4/3) * pi * (ro ** 3 - (ro / sqrt (1 + 4 * P / S)) ** 3)

M = d * (4/3) * pi * ro ** 3 * (1 - (1 + 4 * P / S) ** (-3/2))

M = k * ro ** 3

Hmm, I just did some math, and sure enough, the large tank is not as full as it could be: 17280:21120 instead of the current 17200:21022. Better yet, 17280:21120 is exactly 9:11. This time, I used the medium tank as the basis for fuel quantity as its LFO ratio is exactly 9:11.

[edit]Just for completeness, with my suggestions, the masses and ratios would be S:0.5,7.61,15.22 M:1.6875,25.6875,15.222... L:13.5,205.5,15.222... Also, the current mass ratio of the medium tank is 13.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Talisar

[Mekan1k]

....

My Duna Mission WILL have this included.

[Gaius]

So, if your tank has a volume of 24.43 cubic meters, then it should contain 1,911.6 units of LiquidFuel and 2,336.4 units of Oxidizer.... assuming I did my math correctly. (Not a good assumption, as I had to make changes to mine several times ) However, with a radius of 1.8m it would be slightly smaller than the medium tank I made, and these numbers seem to reflect that.

Actually, his tank in question has a radius of about 2.25m. It's 1.8 times the radius of the "size 2" parts (which are 2.5m diameter, 1.25m radius). His volume calculations are way off the mark... hence my "bwah?" upon reading the stats assigned. In any case, he meant to give it the capacity of a Jumbo 64 but in fact gave it the capacity of a 32 instead (the one I used in the picture, since it has identical capacity to his).

Edited June 3, 2013 by Gaius

[Talisar]

Ahhh, I thought the values he provided were after being upscaled. That would make his tank volume in-game about 47.7 cubic meters, giving it a capacity of about 3,733 units of LiquidFuel and 4,563 units of oxidizer. That sound more in the ballpark?

[Gaius]

Ahhh, I thought the values he provided were after being upscaled. That would make his tank volume in-game about 47.7 cubic meters, giving it a capacity of about 3,733 units of LiquidFuel and 4,563 units of oxidizer. That sound more in the ballpark?

47.7 cubic meters matches my estimate exactly. (It turns out that in my original posted picture, I serendipitously made 225 pixels = 2.25 meters, or 1 pixel = 1 cm exactly, so my 47.7 million cubic pixels is 47.7 million cc, which is 47.7 cubic meters).

That said, I actually like the idea of making his tank have less density, assuming it therefore also has less dry mass. Having the same capacity as the Jumbo 64, as was his original intent, sounds like a fine idea to me, assuming he updates the capacity to be that (it's currently half that), and then reduces the dry mass to take into account the spherical efficiency (less surface area per volume) and reduced density require less thickness to hold in. This gives the tank its own niche and tradeoffs -- harder to work with, less space efficient (when stacking multiples next to one another, for example), but less dry mass to compensate for the difficulty, which is precisely the tradeoffs real engineers need to consider when going spherical or no.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Gaius

[udk_lethal_d0se]

47.7 cubic meters matches my estimate exactly. (It turns out that in my original posted picture, I serendipitously made 225 pixels = 2.25 meters, or 1 pixel = 1 cm exactly, so my 47.7 million cubic pixels is 47.7 million cc, which is 47.7 cubic meters).

That said, I actually like the idea of making his tank have less density, assuming it therefore also has less dry mass. Having the same capacity as the Jumbo 64, as was his original intent, sounds like a fine idea to me, assuming he updates the capacity to be that (it's currently half that), and then reduces the dry mass to take into account the spherical efficiency (less surface area per volume) and reduced density require less thickness to hold in. This gives the tank its own niche and tradeoffs -- harder to work with, less space efficient (when stacking multiples next to one another, for example), but less dry mass to compensate for the difficulty, which is precisely the tradeoffs real engineers need to consider when going spherical or no.

It's been quite enjoyable to read this conversation, sorry I hadn't replied.

I'm going to try and rework the values tomorrow.

Edited June 3, 2013 by udk_lethal_d0se
I Shouldn't ask things before reading posts properly.

[mushroomman]

What's this factory plugin you mentioned?

[udk_lethal_d0se]

What's this factory plugin you mentioned?

I am in the process of writing a plugin that will allow players to micro-manage their stations with my components (more to follow) thus controlling resources and manufacture.

Example: Controlling a factory/refinery that produces Oxygen/Liquid Oxygen from pre-defined resources and then storing or transferring them.

[mushroomman]

I am in the process of writing a plugin that will allow players to micro-manage their stations with my components (more to follow) thus controlling resources and manufacture.

Example: Controlling a factory/refinery that produces Oxygen/Liquid Oxygen from pre-defined resources and then storing or transferring them.

That sounds pretty cool

[udk_lethal_d0se]

That sounds pretty cool

Thanks, it's getting there.

[Gaius]

I do love the direction this is going. Several of the pieces you made are pretty much the same pieces I've been creating for my own use using Blender/GIMP, except mine look like crud and yours look awesome. I find myself gradually phasing out all my home-made pieces with yours. One thing I did differently on mine (besides texturing it like a rank amateur) was I made my station core a command module in and of itself, figuring that much space ought to house something so the station's control computer would make sense there, along with a CMG (rotPower). Something to consider, although not necessary if you're slapping manned command modules on your station, or perhaps you have other plans for a command pod (hmm?).

[HoY]

First I want to compliment your work, and especially the speed that you are putting things out at!!

Second I have a request. A part (actually a few parts that work together) that I wanted to build myself but that would require me to learn how to actually model and texture and write the plugin for!

A nuclear reactor.

Not just a "free power from here" type thing like RTG's. I want it to have to be maintained, and have the core wear down over time and need to be replaced after 3-5 years of in game time, including time warp time.

The reactor would be large, probably a hexagonal shaped part about 5 meters across and 2 meters thick, weighing in at around 60-80 tonnes. The center will have a moving "elevator" part that the core will be installed in, and removed from after its productive life has ended.

I want the power output of the reactor to be based on other parts you connect to the outside of it. Specifically "chilling" towers. Those towers will need to be replenished with coolant to keep them working at peak efficiency.

Having a maximum number of chilling towers at around 6, one per side, I was thinking that when the core is new it would be able to put out around 1000 units of power per second.

Scaling down to having 6 chilling towers with no coolant remaining the power output would drop down to 20-50 units per second, and fractions of 6 if you have fewer than the maximum number of towers installed.

Anyway, been thinking about this for a couple weeks and have a bunch more thoughts on it if you are interested.

Edit: forgot to mention this idea was primarily for land based operations. And the towers are to be connected with a custom shaped docking port that will only connect these two objects together. Same for the reactor connecting to the core when the core needs to be replaced.

The way I see it being implemented would be to have each piece flown to the target location in its own ship, landed on its own, then using some type of rover or crane, assembling the pieces together and ultimately having to send it a supply of coolant every year and a new core every 5 years. I want the core to have to be actually new and as soon as its launched from the VAB as a payload it's timer starts, to add to the logistical side. Same with the coolant for the chilling towers. I want their storage containers to leak out the gas at a rate low enough so the trip to the reactor will have used some up but still have enough to keep it running for a year or so. (Per tower not 1 tank for each tower)

Edit2:

Mass list (rough)

Core : 30t

Reactor: 80-90t

Chill tower(each): 40t

Coolant tank with enough to fill 1 chill tower from empty to full: 8-10t. Will lose about 10% of its content per year of storage time including time warp

Edit3; I can't help myself. Now that I've finally started to get this down out of my head I just want to get it all down in one place!!

Chilling towers cooling effectiveness will be effected by wether or not there is an atmosphere around them. They should be designed to operate at full effectiveness in a vacuum, so a planet with an atmosphere could potentially make the efficiency go above 100%. Having a higher than 100% efficiency won't increase power output of the reactor, it will however allow you to have less than full coolant and still get the full cooling effect.

Say you we're on laythe, the atmosphere is around 10 C, but due to convection your radiators are now cooling at 120% nominal efficiency. For the first 20% of the year you will get full power output from the reactor until the coolant drops below 80%, then you will start to lose power output.

This is all just coming out of my head. Does not reflect the way a real nuclear plant works by any means!

Oh one more thing lol. The core will be a 1.25x1.25m cylinder that is transported inside a protective canister, the canister is 2.5x2.5m and has its own mass of around 20t due to the lead lining

Edited June 4, 2013 by HoY

[udk_lethal_d0se]

I do love the direction this is going. Several of the pieces you made are pretty much the same pieces I've been creating for my own use using Blender/GIMP, except mine look like crud and yours look awesome. I find myself gradually phasing out all my home-made pieces with yours. One thing I did differently on mine (besides texturing it like a rank amateur) was I made my station core a command module in and of itself, figuring that much space ought to house something so the station's control computer would make sense there, along with a CMG (rotPower). Something to consider, although not necessary if you're slapping manned command modules on your station, or perhaps you have other plans for a command pod (hmm?).

I did have a little something in mind as a control module, yes

[udk_lethal_d0se]

First I want to compliment your work, and especially the speed that you are putting things out at!!

Second I have a request. A part (actually a few parts that work together) that I wanted to build myself but that would require me to learn how to actually model and texture and write the plugin for!

A nuclear reactor.

Not just a "free power from here" type thing like RTG's. I want it to have to be maintained, and have the core wear down over time and need to be replaced after 3-5 years of in game time, including time warp time.

The reactor would be large, probably a hexagonal shaped part about 5 meters across and 2 meters thick, weighing in at around 60-80 tonnes. The center will have a moving "elevator" part that the core will be installed in, and removed from after its productive life has ended.

I want the power output of the reactor to be based on other parts you connect to the outside of it. Specifically "chilling" towers. Those towers will need to be replenished with coolant to keep them working at peak efficiency.

Having a maximum number of chilling towers at around 6, one per side, I was thinking that when the core is new it would be able to put out around 1000 units of power per second.

Scaling down to having 6 chilling towers with no coolant remaining the power output would drop down to 20-50 units per second, and fractions of 6 if you have fewer than the maximum number of towers installed.

Anyway, been thinking about this for a couple weeks and have a bunch more thoughts on it if you are interested.

Edit: forgot to mention this idea was primarily for land based operations. And the towers are to be connected with a custom shaped docking port that will only connect these two objects together. Same for the reactor connecting to the core when the core needs to be replaced.

The way I see it being implemented would be to have each piece flown to the target location in its own ship, landed on its own, then using some type of rover or crane, assembling the pieces together and ultimately having to send it a supply of coolant every year and a new core every 5 years. I want the core to have to be actually new and as soon as its launched from the VAB as a payload it's timer starts, to add to the logistical side. Same with the coolant for the chilling towers. I want their storage containers to leak out the gas at a rate low enough so the trip to the reactor will have used some up but still have enough to keep it running for a year or so. (Per tower not 1 tank for each tower)

Edit2:

Mass list (rough)

Core : 30t

Reactor: 80-90t

Chill tower(each): 40t

Coolant tank with enough to fill 1 chill tower from empty to full: 8-10t. Will lose about 10% of its content per year of storage time including time warp

Thanks, I'll have a think about this.