[0.20.2] Mission Controller v0.10 (06/24/2013) [ALPHA]

[Snillum101]

Thanks for your feedback.

I made no cooldown because nobody wants to put 100 client controlled satellites in an orbit around Kerbin. Those missions are for basic income if you are low on money and can't finish the next mission. So taking that option away could cause the following situation:

* no missions that the player could finish with the currently available budget

* no repeatable missions available because on cooldown

So he can't do anything other than timewarp. That might be realistic like in real life, but I don't think that this would be fun ("Oh... well... I have to wait another xxx days for the right phaseangle to Eeloo.").

You make a fair point there, though part of me thinks that that responsibility sits with the individual mission package designers not to provide the user with a very restrictive campaign or no way of making an income

[nobody44]

Is there some way of aborting a mission without losing the launch costs? I'm not really interested in being punished if my design doesn't work out.

Edit: for clarification, I mean that after I have launched I want to be able to 'rewind' back to the launch pad and have the costs of the launch refunded.

Currently there is no such option. Actually, that is exactly one reason why I don't want to implement this feature. This plugin should make you think twice before you launch.

You could do it this way: disable the plugin, launch untill you have a working design, bring it into orbit, enable the plugin and start another one, just don't bring it into orbit, end the flight after "launch" on the launchpad.

You make a fair point there, though part of me thinks that that responsibility sits with the individual mission package designers not to provide the user with a very restrictive campaign or no way of making an income

Fair point. Let me think about it over the weekend .

I started a poll for the death of innocent kerbonauts, please vote:

http://poll.pollcode.com/8zm4o

Edited June 14, 2013 by nobody44

[Artophwar]

Is there some way of aborting a mission without losing the launch costs? I'm not really interested in being punished if my design doesn't work out.

Edit: for clarification, I mean that after I have launched I want to be able to 'rewind' back to the launch pad and have the costs of the launch refunded.

That seems to contradict the purpose of the mod.

[giltirn]

That seems to contradict the purpose of the mod.

I disagree. Most games offer the ability to try something again if you screw up - despite this they still offer a challenge. Sometimes people make silly mistakes (for example they accidentally muck up the staging or forget to lock the gimbal on their mainsails) or some freak wobble causes something to break off at launch. Currently the mod punishes you for such things, which seems unnecessary to me.

Edited June 14, 2013 by giltirn
Corrected bad grammar

[giltirn]

Currently there is no such option. Actually, that is exactly one reason why I don't want to implement this feature. This plugin should make you think twice before you launch.

You could do it this way: disable the plugin, launch untill you have a working design, bring it into orbit, enable the plugin and start another one, just don't bring it into orbit, end the flight after "launch" on the launchpad.

Sometimes mistakes cannot easily be anticipated at launch. For example, last night while attempting the Vostok I mission I did my gravity turn too quickly and accidentally caused the rocket to spin out of control. While the hardcore among us will say 'suck it up', I personally prefer to have the option to try again. It just adds a layer of tedium having to grind easy missions to get back money due to a simple slip-up, and at the early stages of your space program the losses can be quite severe. Unfortunately the alternative you suggested will not work for suborbital flights. Perhaps you could just add the ability to save and reload the campaign status for the softcore losers among us that need such crutches?

[Snillum101]

I agree with you, though I think having the option to disable the plugin from the config menu before launch does let you test out designs without inuring any financial penalty. I myself regularly test out designs with the plugin disabled and then run the mission for real once I'm happy. I see it as using "computer simulations" to test a design before committing to build it

[giltirn]

I agree with you, though I think having the option to disable the plugin from the config menu before launch does let you test out designs without inuring any financial penalty. I myself regularly test out designs with the plugin disabled and then run the mission for real once I'm happy. I see it as using "computer simulations" to test a design before committing to build it

This is true, although having the ability to try again would make testing easier and also would allow people to recover from dumb mistakes.

[Artemis]

Oh I just love the way this is developing

[asmi]

I agree with you, though I think having the option to disable the plugin from the config menu before launch does let you test out designs without inuring any financial penalty. I myself regularly test out designs with the plugin disabled and then run the mission for real once I'm happy. I see it as using "computer simulations" to test a design before committing to build it

That kills the whole point of this mod, which is to simulate a real space program. The way real one works is - you develop LV on your own dime, and then you're getting money back for flying successful missions. So this forces you to think about functionality over "prettiness", also you _need_ to do test launches with mock payloads or without payload at all. But since test launches involves flying hardware and spending fuel, you _have to_ pay for it.

That's the way I do it - I do test launches with as cheap payloads as I can come up with, and only after I'm satisfied that LV works I take a mission.

[pcpeggs]

Amazing mod...this has reinvigorated my KSP life!

Quick UI question for you -

After I completed a missions goals, and landed near KSC - I mistakenly hit recycle craft BEFORE hitting "Finish mission". This locked me out from the reward from a successful mission.

Is it possible to add or change the buttons to something like "Finish mission and recycle (if possible)"? That or allow the "finish mission" after recycling a craft as well....

Also, in later missions (specifically in the NT package) - After longer missions (2+ hour orbits) I've run into issues where the longitude is not properly calculated...and even though I am landing less than 1km from KSC, it displays something like -175.00 when in fact i'm well within the -73 to -75 window...does that make sense? I will try to screenshot the issue and get other info if you wish...

[firerider521]

I agree with you, though I think having the option to disable the plugin from the config menu before launch does let you test out designs without inuring any financial penalty. I myself regularly test out designs with the plugin disabled and then run the mission for real once I'm happy. I see it as using "computer simulations" to test a design before committing to build it

Computer simulations....

within... within computer games.... that are.... simulations....

[White Owl]

Regarding your poll... I suggest you don't assign a specific Krones amount to the life of a kerbal. Instead, simply list the number of kerbals launched, kerbals recovered, and kerbals killed. Let the player decide how valuable that little green guy's life is.

[theSpeare]

That's the way I do it - I do test launches with as cheap payloads as I can come up with, and only after I'm satisfied that LV works I take a mission.

This is the troublesome thinking with this area of discussion, where people revolve around the idea of "well I do this, I think it should be like this, so it should be limited like this for everyone else".

There are always unforeseeable problems that occur from these launches, and sometimes it's tiny stupid mistakes like what giltirn mentioned. We really don't want to have that sort of problem where you'd have to grind up small missions over and over again before you can even go again (some people actually don't really have the time for it either).

On another note, is there a list somewhere of more/other mission packages?

[gibbskw]

I attempted to add this mod into my already running space program. My original thought was to put myself into a position where the commercial missions are used to finance the rest of my program. Everything was going swimmingly until a separated tank knocked out a main engine. That one failed launch set me back so far that it is easy to see that I don't have time to grind back enough funds to support three space stations and multiple interplanetary probes that I have scheduled. The only way that I really see that scenario working out for me is if the client paid for all costs and I still get the full award for successful completion.

This isn't to say that I don't like the mod. I've copied a separate KSP folder just to run this. It just can't fit in with my sandbox.

[asmi]

This is the troublesome thinking with this area of discussion, where people revolve around the idea of "well I do this, I think it should be like this, so it should be limited like this for everyone else".

There are very good reason why I'm offering it the way I offer it.

There are always unforeseeable problems that occur from these launches, and sometimes it's tiny stupid mistakes like what giltirn mentioned. We really don't want to have that sort of problem where you'd have to grind up small missions over and over again before you can even go again (some people actually don't really have the time for it either).

This is a position of a chicken - "What if I screw it up?" - well you've gotta pay for your screw ups. I have built a launcher that always successfull, without any problems. There were minor issues in the beginning, but once I ironed out these bugs it performs perfect! It already logged 20 missions, 100% success.

On another note, is there a list somewhere of more/other mission packages?

No as far as I know I only know of this one: http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/nt-space-program-mission-controll-mission-pack/

[Snillum101]

That kills the whole point of this mod, which is to simulate a real space program. The way real one works is - you develop LV on your own dime, and then you're getting money back for flying successful missions. So this forces you to think about functionality over "prettiness", also you _need_ to do test launches with mock payloads or without payload at all. But since test launches involves flying hardware and spending fuel, you _have to_ pay for it.

That's the way I do it - I do test launches with as cheap payloads as I can come up with, and only after I'm satisfied that LV works I take a mission.

Maybe its a question of balance, I find my LV is almost all the cost of the mission with the payload being a very small amount.

[nobody44]

There are very good reason why I'm offering it the way I offer it.

This is a position of a chicken - "What if I screw it up?" - well you've gotta pay for your screw ups. I have built a launcher that always successfull, without any problems. There were minor issues in the beginning, but once I ironed out these bugs it performs perfect! It already logged 20 missions, 100% success.

That is exactly how it should be and how real life space agencies operate (I guess).

On another note, is there a list somewhere of more/other mission packages?

If you designed a good mission package I would like to link it in my first post. But so far there is no such website.

Again some sidenotes for mission designers:

1. Apollo style missions (orbit around kerbin, orbit around mun, land, dock, land on kerbin) are currently not possible, because of the way KSP handles dockings and undockings. Technically speaking an undocking creates a new vessel, that has a new ID. And you can't finish the landing on mun with this vessel because you did not finish the other goals before the landing.

2. Try not to dictate *how* to do something. Try to set a target, not the *way* the user should accomplish the target. Like: "Land on that spot on the Mun" and *NOT* "land on that spot using two ships, one stays in orbit and one lands.". Of course you can and should specify parts that the vessel needs, but don't try to dictate *how* to finish a mission. Only challange missions should do that...

[BlazingAngel665]

Maybe its a question of balance, I find my LV is almost all the cost of the mission with the payload being a very small amount.

Which is an issue with KSP balancing. Usually the LV's IRL cost about 150-200 million if you are talking ULA 50 million if you are talking SpaceX. The satellites can cost hundreds of millions more. In KSP however the satellites are usually made of the same parts used in the launch vehicle instead of special highly expensive gold foil, glass optics, sensors and what not. This is a balancing issue that is probably not going to be solved anytime soon.

[itsme86]

This mod has definitely add a little sizzle back to the game for me! Great job!

Question in general, what is a good way of finding the current longitude of AN on your orbital path? I mean, I can see the value of the LAN, but I have trouble visualizing where exactly that is. Like a "time to LAN" or something would be extremely helpful for me. Is there a mod that helps with that? I have flight engineer redux, but the longitude in the Surface display seems wildly off to me. In one orbit it would just bounce back and forth between 123 and -247 degrees without anything in-between.

[giltirn]

That is exactly how it should be and how real life space agencies operate (I guess).

Well real-life space programs are not managed by one person, and are so automated that the chances of any preventable mistakes are slim to none. Even the Apollo program was mostly automated, the astronauts, while trained to take over in case of computer failure, were mainly there for the ride. People are not robots, and will make mistakes (apart from asmi, who is clearly a god among men ), and in general games-players do not like to be punished for their mistakes by long periods of grinding. Of course this is your mod, and you can do with it as you will. I was just hoping for the option of being able to retry as a crutch for players such as myself who have limited playing time and are not particularly concerned about being called a chicken by the forum ubermensch.

[asmi]

Well real-life space programs are not managed by one person, and are so automated that the chances of any preventable mistakes are slim to none. Even the Apollo program was mostly automated, the astronauts, while trained to take over in case of computer failure, were mainly there for the ride. People are not robots, and will make mistakes (apart from asmi, who is clearly a god among men ), and in general games-players do not like to be punished for their mistakes by long periods of grinding. Of course this is your mod, and you can do with it as you will. I was just hoping for the option of being able to retry as a crutch for players such as myself who have limited playing time and are not particularly concerned about being called a chicken by the forum ubermensch.

No, I'm not a god, I just use a good strategy to achieve results, that's it. And the mod already gives you the option of trying again - it allows you to go into negatives - think of it as "stabilization credit", that you have to repay. _this_ is your punishment and at the same time insentive to perform better. I play with FAR and that itself add more complications (need to have fairings, for one) on top of already challenging environment that this mod offers, and that forces to _think_ before doing something - like it is in real life. And that is what I love the most about this mod - it's more about strategy than about anything else.

[Artophwar]

Is anyone actually having to grind?? I have failed multiple missions multiple times and I still have over half a million krones. I just dont see why you would play this mod if every flight is a guaranteed success with no financial penalty. When the real career mode is released Im fairly certain it will be similar to this, as in you wont be able to "rewind" failed launches. You can either play career mode(for now this mod) and get penalized for failure, or you can play sandbox mode and do whatever without any consequences.

[White Owl]

You can disable the plugin before launch. You can reset the budget to start at any time, via the ingame GUI. You can edit the .sp file with any text editor, and give yourself any amount of funds you want. You can write your own missions and set any reward for any goal, repeated as often as you like.

Even at this early stage of development, Mission Controller is extremely forgiving of mistakes. This is no threat to your consequence-free sandbox experience.

[giltirn]

Is anyone actually having to grind?? I have failed multiple missions multiple times and I still have over half a million krones. I just dont see why you would play this mod if every flight is a guaranteed success with no financial penalty. When the real career mode is released Im fairly certain it will be similar to this, as in you wont be able to "rewind" failed launches. You can either play career mode(for now this mod) and get penalized for failure, or you can play sandbox mode and do whatever without any consequences.

You might want to read HarvesteR's latest dev blog http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/entry.php/550-Rethinking-the-way-flights-end, in which he flat out states that players will be able to (i quote) "freely retry a failed mission without consequence".

[Artophwar]

Thats actually disappointing. I hope they have difficulty settings otherwise its just like sandbox and why even have a sandbox mode...