Feasibility of a Laythe base, using proper science.

[Cryocasm]

This thread is meant to be a massive discussion, as I like to watch people be creative with the weirdest challenges.

(You can be creative as you like, although below I will dissect Laythe's situation. Like using its oceans, you could always just fly in the water from Kerbin.)

As a given, there's only a few things:

Laythe is trapped in Jool's radiation zone, meaning you're adding some lead onto the base. Say this lead is 15cm applique to the surface of the module you're thinking of. This dictates the lead weight wL as being surface area in m² * 0.15 * 11.34. So if I had a 1 m² tile of protective cover, it would weigh 100x100x15x11.34, or 1,701,000 grams. Thats nearly 2 tons of radiation shielding per m² of surface area! Hence you take the surface area m² * 1,701 to yield your lead weight.

Laythe has oxygen in its atmosphere, this can be utilized through deionization and radiation filtering, at massive electrical costs.

Laythe has water in its oceans (presumably, considering the oxygen). Through similar treatment, this water could be harnessed to supply the Kerbals. It still costs megawatts.

To increase self-sufficiency, one could bring plants. These would require (based on distance) the plants to have x5.2 more leaf surface area, to function like on Kerbin.

Laythe has relatively little land, requiring precision piloting.

Using these factors, out of pure curiosity, I designed my own base, but I want to compare it to other bases (using lots of lead, once my math was checked ).

After mathematical correction of weight, it appears as if I can ditch this thought process for good and buy an excavator.

The base consists of multiple buildings:

Kerbal Living Quarters (x2 lead protection). This houses 30 Kerbs in a cylindrical building. Using the Hitchhiker as my source data to base off of: 2x2x2 (cube-ified) for 4 Kerbals. Hence 8 to 4 as x to 30. x is 60. This means 1 Kerbal requires 2 m³ of space to live in. Considering the Hitchhikers surface area, 56.3 m², all I need to do is take this times 7.5, as total surface area doesn't change, despite changes to r and h. This gives me 422,25 m² of surface area to cover, hence 717,825 kilograms or 717.83 tons of lead. I only elaborated on the additional weight here to stress how much of a factor it is. The hitchhiker doesn't have much weight to stand up to this colossus.

Utility Building Alpha. This is the storage building for processed water and air, as well as reprocessing of waste water and atmosphere. It is not accessible, however still requires protection to keep the water and air at acceptable radiation levels. Lets say its outside is a duplicate of the Kerbal Living Quarters, giving 717 tons of protection. This time, the lead mass is substantially lower because of the increased dry weight. Lets make the UBA (which has 188.5 m³ of volume) weigh 4 tons before lead application. This makes the percentage of lead drop to 14.8% of its total dry weight.Or, in adjusted weight, it still doesn't compare.

Utility Building Beta. This is the acquisition facility. It produces breathable air and drinkable water, at the cost of lots of tower. Lets twin this building to the UBA, but inverse its radius and height, making this one a bit flatter than the other two. It retains its 188.3 m³ of volume, however at 10 tons dry mass, to facilitate all of the processing equipment. Using extendable/deployable air ducts and water pipes, its surface area is increased substantially, by (say arbitrarily) 15%. This yields 717*1.15 or 824,55 kg of lead. This is just 8.25% of the total dry mass now.Still doesn't compare.

Science House. As the name says, this is where science occurs. Given its duties, it has lots of interior space for Kerbals, reducing dry weight. In addition to this, the atmosphere of Laythe is analyzed here with a spectrometer and Jool's atmospheric behavior with a telescope. This means more lead.

Power House. I choose to use a nuclear reactor for this, which is basically 110% lead anyway.

The goal behind my thread here is a study of initial dry mass launched to Laythe, and then following supplements of Food or return-capsules. Lets say Laythe isn't a volcanic hell on top of the irradiated hell

Oh and I'm coming up with a new idea, this thought never would've made the forum post if it weren't for me messing up zeros and thinking with much different numbers.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Cryocasm
Ooopss my math

[Kerbface]

Why are you building a habitat of lead? You've got massive oceans that don't even need unfreezing right next to you. Either pump water into a thick bladder around the habitat and/or simply have an underwater base! Drop the habitat in the ocean, have an anchor/hook sort of thing at the bottom that can lock you to the ocean floor and pull the base under. Then launch your Laythe submarine to explore the oceans and send a Laythe rover out with a dome full of water to protect you from radiation while giving all on board okay vision. The Rover can be exited through the area underneath the dome if necessary. Plus smaller rovers to go on scouting missions.

And I haven't done the math but there's no way in hell 1mx1mx15cm of lead is 1.7kg...

[Cryocasm]

Why are you building a habitat of lead? You've got massive oceans that don't even need unfreezing right next to you. Either pump water into a thick bladder around the habitat and/or simply have an underwater base! Drop the habitat in the ocean, have an anchor/hook sort of thing at the bottom that can lock you to the ocean floor and pull the base under. Then launch your Laythe submarine to explore the oceans and send a Laythe rover out with a dome full of water to protect you from radiation while giving all on board okay vision. The Rover can be exited through the area underneath the dome if necessary. Plus smaller rovers to go on scouting missions.

And I haven't done the math but there's no way in hell 1mx1mx15cm of lead is 1.7kg...

11.34 grams per cm³. Wait a minute. Oh. How embarrassing. LOL! I forgot the 0s. 100x100x15 = 150,000 cm³. Herpaderp. I considered having an exploration submarine, but didn't apply the concept to the whole habitat. Looks like I'm adjusting dry masses a bit. The question is, how would you move a submarine with >600 m³ internal volume, let alone the water pressures acting on it (the water pressure would be a lot more inconsistent if Jool has realistic tidal effects on Laythe), as you'd need to submerge quite the bit in order to have maximum effect from the ocean shielding. You'd also need a form of anti-beaching mechanism, due to the tidal forces.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Cryocasm

[Horn Brain]

It's 1.7 metric tons of lead.

Kerbface is right. Much easier to bury the base under the sand or use water-filled walls or place the base underwater. It wouldn't have to be very deep. The underwater plan is probably best, since you can send submarines to go explore the entire oceans of Laythe without having to expose Kerbals to radiation at the surface.

Speaking of that radiation. Holy crap! Wiki lists the dose on Io's surface at 36 Sieverts PER DAY! That means you could only stay on the surface unprotected for 40 minutes before you'd get acute radiation sickness and maybe die, not to mention the risk of cancer. That's like standing next to the Chernobyl reactor after it exploded for over half an hour!

So how do we deal with this? The options I can think of are:

1. Robotics - Don't deal with it. Put a station or base on Vall or Tylo or Bop or Pol and remote control assets on Laythe's surface
   
2. Separate crew from construction - build the base robotically, then when it's ready, simply land a small, heavily shielded descent vehicle and get under the waves as quickly as possible. Laythe has a thick enough atmosphere that landing shouldn't require much thrust.
   

[Kerbface]

you'd need to submerge quite the bit in order to have maximum effect from the ocean shielding.

No you don't... water has a halving thickness of 18cm... A few metres would give perfectly adequate protection.

Why do you need to have a massive submarine? And why would this submarine be so hard to move? We don't have too much trouble with Earth submarines...

I don't know much about tidal pressure changes, perhaps you could explain how this is a serious issue?

[Kerbface]

Speaking of that radiation. Holy crap! Wiki lists the dose on Io's surface at 36 Sieverts PER DAY! That means you could only stay on the surface unprotected for 40 minutes before you'd get acute radiation sickness and maybe die, not to mention the risk of cancer. That's like standing next to the Chernobyl reactor after it exploded for over half an hour!

Just remember that Laythe does have a thick atmosphere (and we don't know the strength of it's magnetic field but that might help too). So it'd probably be still very dangerous to go out with nothing but a suit for long, but it might not necessarily be quite as bad as Io.

[Cryocasm]

No you don't... water has a halving thickness of 18cm... A few metres would give perfectly adequate protection.

Why do you need to have a massive submarine? And why would this submarine be so hard to move? We don't have too much trouble with Earth submarines...

I don't know much about tidal pressure changes, perhaps you could explain how this is a serious issue?

Laythe's proximity to Jool. The tidal effect is much, much higher than on Earth.

[Kerbface]

Laythe's proximity to Jool. The tidal effect is much, much higher than on Earth.

So far as I understand, the main tidal effect would be that the tide is constantly pulled up a lot more on one side of the moon (due to tidal locking), and in that way isn't really the same as tidal effects on Earth and would vary less widely. I don't really know much about the subject though, do I have something wrong? Are you saying that at certain times the tides will rise several hundred metres or something, making the pressure change? If that's the case, I guess they would just have to make sure the habitat and submarine have decent structural integrity then...

[Cryocasm]

So far as I understand, the main tidal effect would be that the tide is constantly pulled up a lot more on one side of the moon (due to tidal locking), and in that way isn't really the same as tidal effects on Earth and would vary less widely. I don't really know much about the subject though, do I have something wrong? Are you saying that at certain times the tides will rise several hundred metres or something, making the pressure change? If that's the case, I guess they would just have to make sure the habitat and submarine have decent structural integrity then...

That's the problem, because your moving about with the submarine, meaning if your on the Jool-side of Laythe, your in lower pressure water (the water closer to the surface is pulled more by Jool, slightly, but more). Conversely, if your on the zenith or anti-Jool-side of Laythe, you have a lot more water pressure, as the "rearmost" water is being smushed against the surface. A base itself would "only" have to be strong enough to resist water pressure where it's dropped, as its immobile.

The tides themselves don't change: Laythe doesn't rotate on its own axis. Those stresses would be even higher. You'd just have a variable water pressure environment, depending on your location. This also means that the optimal depth of the base changes. You need more depth the closer you are to Laythe's Jool-respective nadir. This applies for "floating" bases, which are at a certain depth and neither at the surface nor the ocean floor. Bases which have enough resistance (but costing lots of weight) could just sit at the ocean floor and not really worry.

[andrewas]

Remember that Laythe itself is in freefall, so we're only looking at the effect of Jools gravity gradient across the width of the moon. The only significant effect this has is to distort the equilibrium shape of the moon, making it bulge outwards towards, as well as away from, Jool. The pressure at a given depth is constant at any point on the planet, the effect of Jool's gravity is to move water, not compress it.

[Horn Brain]

There would be significant tides from Vall and Tylo. Tides from Jool are fixed and would not cause variation.

[Rune]

I find the premise of the thread a bit flawed. I mean, what is realistic about Laythe, seriously? It's impossibly dense, it has free oxygen in the atmosphere (something no non-bological process could do), and it orbits a "gas giant" the size of a rocky planet. How do you know Jool has a magnetic field in the first place? Or it's size or intensity, for that matter? According to radius and mass, it's made either made of unobtanium, or it has a black hole/neutron star in the middle. And it's still puny compared to Jupiter.

Now, if you were talking about RL Europa, that's another thing. But KSP is a computer game with some Newtonian physics, not a treaty on planetology. Don't expect that kind of scientific accuracy.

Rune. If so, +1 to the "water as radiation shielding" comments.

[Brotoro]

There would be significant tides from Vall and Tylo. Tides from Jool are fixed and would not cause variation.

This is true. And unless I'm calculating something incorrectly, the tidal effects on Laythe caused by Vall and Tylo would be enormous.

Tidal forces are caused by the difference in the strength of gravity from one side of the moon/planet and the other side. The difference in gravitational acceleration between the two sides of Laythe caused by Vall would be 46.4 times as great as the difference in gravitational acceleration between opposite sides of the Earth caused by our Moon. The difference in gravitational acceleration between the two sides of Laythe caused by Tylo would be 36.4 times as great as the difference in gravitational acceleration between opposite sides of the Earth caused by our Moon.

Somebody should check my results, of course.

[Kerbface]

That's the problem, because your moving about with the submarine, meaning if your on the Jool-side of Laythe, your in lower pressure water (the water closer to the surface is pulled more by Jool, slightly, but more). Conversely, if your on the zenith or anti-Jool-side of Laythe, you have a lot more water pressure, as the "rearmost" water is being smushed against the surface. A base itself would "only" have to be strong enough to resist water pressure where it's dropped, as its immobile.

Well, I don't imagine any manned or unmanned vehicle in space for at least a hundred years will be designed to circumnavigate a whole celestial body (bigger than an asteroid). I would expect a submarine would never go more than 100km from the base.

By the way, for those saying that it doesn't matter due to it's impossible density, I'm operating under the assumption that Laythe is actually about Earth sized or similar and that the game is scaled down, which is done for gameplay reasons.

[Cryocasm]

Well, I don't imagine any manned or unmanned vehicle in space for at least a hundred years will be designed to circumnavigate a whole celestial body (bigger than an asteroid). I would expect a submarine would never go more than 100km from the base.

By the way, for those saying that it doesn't matter due to it's impossible density, I'm operating under the assumption that Laythe is actually about Earth sized or similar and that the game is scaled down, which is done for gameplay reasons.

Exactly, take it as a given that the game is the way the game is.

This is true. And unless I'm calculating something incorrectly, the tidal effects on Laythe caused by Vall and Tylo would be enormous.

Tidal forces are caused by the difference in the strength of gravity from one side of the moon/planet and the other side. The difference in gravitational acceleration between the two sides of Laythe caused by Vall would be 46.4 times as great as the difference in gravitational acceleration between opposite sides of the Earth caused by our Moon. The difference in gravitational acceleration between the two sides of Laythe caused by Tylo would be 36.4 times as great as the difference in gravitational acceleration between opposite sides of the Earth caused by our Moon.

Somebody should check my results, of course.

Exactly my point. I haven't mentioned Vall and Tylo as I thought Jool would suffice as a tidal factor.

I find the premise of the thread a bit flawed. I mean, what is realistic about Laythe, seriously? It's impossibly dense, it has free oxygen in the atmosphere (something no non-bological process could do), and it orbits a "gas giant" the size of a rocky planet. How do you know Jool has a magnetic field in the first place? Or it's size or intensity, for that matter? According to radius and mass, it's made either made of unobtanium, or it has a black hole/neutron star in the middle. And it's still puny compared to Jupiter.

Now, if you were talking about RL Europa, that's another thing. But KSP is a computer game with some Newtonian physics, not a treaty on planetology. Don't expect that kind of scientific accuracy.

Rune. If so, +1 to the "water as radiation shielding" comments.

Well, I took the situation for granted. I mean, you could just say, "screw it, its not realistic", but that's not challenging. Laythe is in the game and its fun to work with it.