If this end starts pointing towards space, you will STILL go to space today

[Ninety-Three]

I think sepatrons should not be allowed imo

If you have any sort of propulsion facing down, it's semantics when you have a difference between sepatrons and an actual booster in larger numbers

It's not as easy as you seem to think. Sepratrons only last three seconds, and it takes a _lot_ of them to lift a ship. It's not like they automatically defeat the challenge, you still have a short amount of time to get your rocket pointed upwards (especially the way I did it, with vectored mainsails rather than RCS for turning).

[Ekku Zakku]

I think they should be allowed, but perhaps not to boost upwards at all. I do think they'd be far better than RCS to do the 180 flip.

[alex the killa]

I think they should be allowed, but perhaps not to boost upwards at all. I do think they'd be far better than RCS to do the 180 flip.

This. I know how long they burn, but that adds so much extra height and then makes the game more about how good your computer is instead of engineering

[SirJodelstein]

works like a charm. I used Ninety-Three's sepratrons "loophole"

Flip the ship of 180° as it's falling, come down with parachutes and landing gears; launch as normal.

Result: 24.6 t to orbit, minus parachutes and two small engines = 23.82 t.

Looks interesting. Before i can add you to the leaderboard, please provide coverage of the full launch sequence including the flip? How did you turn that thing in just ~25m free-fall and still have time to deploy the cutes? Or did you add a massive sepratron lift stage to gain more height (not shown in any picture)? Also, for your final payload score, please open the resource tab so i can confirm how many tanks are full, this is way easier than trying to calculate the mass from total weight + looking for other parts that might be partially or fully clipped into other parts. Added you to the leaderboard anyway, nice trick to decouple the still-buring sepratrons to prevent overflipping!

Edited June 13, 2013 by SirJodelstein

[SirJodelstein]

This. I know how long they burn, but that adds so much extra height and then makes the game more about how good your computer is instead of engineering

Actually, i think as the weight of the liftoff stage increases (i think 50-100tons to orbit might be possible), the massive-upwards-facing-sepratron liftoff solution will become less viable. As Francesco has just shown, it is possible to come up with other creative solutions that do not require hundrets of trons.

[wealthysoup]

ha! are you sure?

haha very smart. I was doing mine ass about face--trying to use parachutes to flip it around then decoupling the parachutes and using engines to cancel the momentum and liftoff. (Was wanting to do it without sepratrons or rcs but have to admit thats an ingenious idea)

[Francesco]

actually, I decouple the sepratrons "packs" only after they're empty: I first let the ship rock back and fort for about two seconds, and then release the clamps.

if my computer can handle it, I'll record a video of this later.

update: here's the video, with a slightly improved version of the ship.

24.8 - 0.3 (2 parachutes) = 24.5 t

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z4blupuim9udh1s/Flip.mov

Edited June 13, 2013 by Francesco

[Sweetness_IB]

I didn't quite do the challenge correctly, but here's a video of my attempts:

[SirJodelstein]

Keep trying Sweetness_IB, looks like you are having fun

Meanwhile, i have come up with a new solution: Forget sepratrons, forget parachutes, say hello to jib arm steering!

The jib arms can be toggled individually with action groups and perform initial turning, rotation-stopping and uprighting tasks all in one, without having to rely on oncontrollable sepratron turning thrusts.

40.55 tons to orbit (with relaxing 20m/s to spare ) - 36 fuel + 4pod + 0.55 rcs

Video

[fireblade42]

I took a different approach to this. Instead of flipping in air, I flipped around on the ground.

On the pad

Post Flip

In orbit

Lots of fuel left

Its all stock. Not sure what my score would be. Some more images of the flight.

[Francesco]

I took a different approach to this. Instead of flipping in air, I flipped around on the ground.

I like that, best approach to this challenge so far.

sadly, with the current rating system, only full tanks count: your score would be just 0.8 tons (the command pod).

if you were to pack some more delta-v, and use two 360l tanks in place of that 720l tank, your score would raise to 5.7 tons.

[Ekku Zakku]

GENIUS!!!! Such a simple answer to the problem, yet we always seem to take the most complicated approach to these kinds of things XD

[SRFirefox]

Fantastic challenge, I love the ingenuity already shown. I'll have to give this one a whirl at some point.

[Ninety-Three]

GENIUS!!!! Such a simple answer to the problem, yet we always seem to take the most complicated approach to these kinds of things XD

Well of course, that's what KSP is all about! Or it is when Jeb is in the pilot's seat at least.

[SirJodelstein]

@fireblade: Very smart solution, loving it. As it has been said, end score is mass of full (rcs/solid/liquid) fuel tanks and crew pods. So for now i'll put you at 0.8t, but i am sure you will come up with better-scoring entries soon.

Also, i am (for now) invalidating my own entries, as i have found out that using DeadBeefs EdTools mod not only provides great VAB/SPH options, but also increases the VAB height by about 50m. Without those extra 50 meters, i cannot perform the drop+flip anymore. I will try to think of a solution to this problem, because i do not want to cease using the tool.

Edited June 14, 2013 by SirJodelstein

[AgentPaper]

@fireblade: Very smart solution, loving it. As it has been said, end score is mass of full (rcs/solid/liquid) fuel tanks and crew pods. So for now i'll put you at 0.8t, but i am sure you will come up with better-scoring entries soon.

Also, i am (for now) invalidating my own entries, as i have found out that using DeadBeefs EdTools mod not only provides great VAB/SPH options, but also increases the VAB height by about 50m. Without those extra 50 meters, i cannot perform the drop+flip anymore. I will try to think of a solution to this problem, because i do not want to cease using the tool.

Perhaps there could be a limit on the ship's starting elevation?

[SirJodelstein]

Perhaps there could be a limit on the ship's starting elevation?

Thats what i want to achieve, but there also needs to be a way to measure/verify that height. The in-game readout looks at the center of mass, but that could be artificially lowered by mounting some Jumbo tanks on the Launch Clamps near the ground. I don't want the rules to be too complicated, does someone have a simple rules suggestion to replace "visible in VAB/SPH"?

[SirJodelstein]

Back to stock conditions. Here is my updated jib-arm steering rocket that drops from the maximun allowed height (no EdTools this time).

Changes: 50m lower dropoff-point=> less time to turn=> add MOAR steering power and parachutes

Video: 40.5t payload to orbit

Sneak Peak from the video: This rocket recovers and goes to orbit.

[soranno]

SirJodelstein... absofrickinglutely outstanding...

[SirJodelstein]

Alright, i thought i open up a new competition category "balanced mods only".

Entries that use only mods like KSPX, KW Rocketry, B9, Novapunch, Damned Robotics, KAS, Stronger Struts and similar stuff will go into this category. This is a judges decision - if i decide that the mod you use is too powerful, it will be entered in the "Mod Anything" category instead. I intend to be fairly tolerant as to want "balanced" mods are, but i have to draw the line somewhere. If you submit an entry with a warp drive or something that floats without power consumption, don't expect to be entered in the balanced category

[lizard455]

I did it!

Sorry for the bad quality :C

Still kind of new to the game so for me this is an epic win

[Eric S]

I took a different approach to this. Instead of flipping in air, I flipped around on the ground.

Flipping on the ground was the first thing I thought of, but I have to say, your method was far more elegant than mine.

[SirJodelstein]

I did it!

Well done! Thats an X-8 tank and a cupola, 9 tons payload total. Note that you only need apoapsis and periapsis > 80km, so if you see that you have a craft that reaches an final orbit that is much higher, you could instead have taken more payload from the start

[Guest crlfe]

Those are awesome. And since it finally motivated me to sign up for the forums, here's a different abuse.

The horizontal FL-T800s are sitting on radial decouplers. Once they're triggered, everything can pivot...

More pictures in the album.

All stock, sepratron's only fire horizontally, and no RCS at all. Assuming I can count correctly, there are 16x 4t command pods, for 56t of payload. The physics engine vetoed my attempts to increase the mass farther (the five launch clamps for each arm just barely keep them from clipping through as-is...)

[SirJodelstein]

A working pivot axle in stock! Another excellent and very creative solution! I guess we have a new leading entry and just breached the 50-ton mark. Really curious about how much more is possible.