I'm bored. Let's plan a manned Venus landing.

[Kryten]

The 'sulphuric acid' is actually sulphur dioxide.

[Souper]

BEWARE, FOR I HAVE FOUND THIS THREAD!

---

Expect me to put up a few insane ideas for suits, and even MS paint diagrams.

Here's a neat idea: why not make the exoskeleton in the middle of the suit's protective layers? and why not fill the hydraulic fluid with a coolant?

And as for the reason we'd go, the question is why NOT go? We'll go sooner or later, maybe for the technological push, for prestige, for money, etc. Or maybe it's because humans can fix things, make intelligent decisions, and not have to wait a whole 4-5 minutes transmission time to make a game-changing decision.

The thing is, humans want to prove they can send themselves to another planet. Why not fulfill our desire?

Edited September 28, 2014 by Souper

[dbmorpher]

Here's a video of the reaction

Oh and super I think I'm on the same page as you but I'm thinking more on the lines of Airship Pirates with Teflon woven overcoats raiding moisture farms for food and water

Edited September 28, 2014 by dbmorpher

[NERVAfan]

Kinda off topic, But would it be possible for EXTREMELY acid resistant microbes to exist on venus? Also would it be possible for floating microbes to live in the atmosphere?

I think the real problem for life in Venus' clouds is lack of water (water vapor content of Venus' atmosphere is only like 20 ppm). There are super-acid-resistant microbes on Earth, such as those involved in acid mine drainage.

[dbmorpher]

If we could engineer an acid resistant microbe that could create sugar it would be able to make all its own water due to sugar's reaction with sulfuric acid and if there is enough, after a long time it could filter out all of the H2SO4 in the atmosphere.

[neamerjell]

I skimmed some of the posts in this thread and the main barrier other than temperature is the acidic atmosphere. Coat the entire vessel in glass. There are very few things that can chemically harm glass, molten sodium hydroxide and hydrofluoric acid being the two I have learned about so far. You could also use whatever this company uses to coat the insides of tanks:

http://www.sulphuric-acid.com/techmanual/materials/materials_linings.htm

[NERVAfan]

If we could engineer an acid resistant microbe that could create sugar it would be able to make all its own water due to sugar's reaction with sulfuric acid and if there is enough, after a long time it could filter out all of the H2SO4 in the atmosphere.

Unfortunately, creating sugar through photosynthesis consumes water....

6 H2O + 6 CO2 -> C6H12O6 + 6 O2

[Kryten]

If we could engineer an acid resistant microbe that could create sugar it would be able to make all its own water due to sugar's reaction with sulfuric acid and if there is enough, after a long time it could filter out all of the H2SO4 in the atmosphere.

Again, there is no H2SO4, only SO2. The the former is the result of dissolving the latter in water.

[Acemcbean]

Guys, from what I've read of this all, you are all forgetting temperature. Yeah, acid sucks, but not when you are boiling alive in your space suit AND being melted to liquid by acid. Not to mention the lightining storms, which could easily render a big, heavy, metal thing uselss. There is still 2 things on our side though: Lower gravity and material-rich atmosphere.

[dbmorpher]

Again, there is no H2SO4, only SO2. The the former is the result of dissolving the latter in water.

From Wikipedia: Venusian clouds are thick and are composed of sulfur dioxide and droplets of sulfuric acid.[33]

Sulfuric acid on venus is like methane is to Titan.

And nerva the reaction of sucrose and sulfuric acid produced the water.

Also it takes less dv to send a supply mission to venus than it does to send it to the moon's surface

At 31 miles in the air the pressure is one atm and the temperature is about 38 C

[NERVAfan]

Again, there is no H2SO4, only SO2. The the former is the result of dissolving the latter in water.

dbmorpher is right, there are actual sulfuric acid droplets.

Guys, from what I've read of this all, you are all forgetting temperature. Yeah, acid sucks, but not when you are boiling alive in your space suit AND being melted to liquid by acid. Not to mention the lightining storms, which could easily render a big, heavy, metal thing uselss. There is still 2 things on our side though: Lower gravity and material-rich atmosphere.

As I understand it, the acid and the super-high temperatures are not in the same place. The upper atmosphere has tolerable temperatures (at about 30 miles, as dbmorpher says) but sulfuric acid, while the surface is incredibly hot but the acid boils away long before reaching it.

And nerva the reaction of sucrose and sulfuric acid produced the water.

Yeah, but you still need another source of water, since you need water to make the sucrose in the first place. If all the sucrose is being used to produce water, then the lifeform can't use any of it for energy.

[Hannu]

What if the H2SO4 from the clouds was captured by an atmospheric intake, and converted to fuel and oxidizer? Also, what about thermocouples?

It is quite complicated. Sulfuric acid is in the upper atmosphere and production plant is on the ground. Breaking of acid needs also huge amounts of energy, but maybe H2S and O2 could be useful rocket propellants (in theory, they may be quite corrosive combination).

Energy production needs always temperature difference. The higher the difference and the lower the lower temperature is, the higher efficiency can be. Power plants use typically huge amounts of cooling water on Earth. There is no water in Venus, but high density atmosphere would give good capacity to transfer heat. Problem would be, that ambient temperature is on the same order than higher temperature in normal power plants. Power production would need extremely high temperatures and that would be severe material problem. We would need huge material research campaign for energy production and other machinery in Venus.

Thermocouples work, if we can find suitable material pairs, but it have very poor efficiency even at high temperature difference and kilowatt range energy production would need huge mass. Maybe it would be accepted to small probe but manned operations would need far too much power for thermocouples. We would need super high temperature machinery. Probably we would need it also to propulsion. I do not think that jet or rocket propulsion is reasonable in Venus's low atmosphere. Propellers would be more efficient by a huge factor. It would me more like submarine transportation than aviation.

[Rakaydos]

It is quite complicated. Sulfuric acid is in the upper atmosphere and production plant is on the ground.

Why is the production plant on the ground? the ground is deeper in the gravity well, it's unspeakably hot, and it's far from the acid you're converting.

Better to hve the plant suspended by oxygen balloon in the cloud layer where it can still receve some solar power for cracking the acid, and the temperature is cool enough to manage.

[dbmorpher]

Yeah, but you still need another source of water, since you need water to make the sucrose in the first place. If all the sucrose is being used to produce water, then the lifeform can't use any of it for energy.

Delta V wise it is easier to transport supplies to venus than it is to the surface of the moon.

[NERVAfan]

Delta V wise it is easier to transport supplies to venus than it is to the surface of the moon.

Sure, but I was talking about the possibility of native microbial life living suspended in the Earthlike temperature/pressure region of Venus' atmosphere, and how the biggest difficulty would be water supply. Importing water from Earth for human use is a whole different question.

[meve12]

BlazingAngels, a quick question: at 92 atmospheres ground pressure, do we need a parachute?

Certainly a stabilizing ballute so we land legs-down, but it seems to me that air drag at those pressures would be sufficient.

[meve12]

A human habitable batheosphere large enough to be neutrally buoyant up to the 50 KM level- then weighed down with science and heat management systems (all ejectable as ballast) to be neutrally buoyant at the 0 KM level.

Abort would be to dump the ballast and return to the more survivable 50 KM level, rendevous with an atmospheric ascent stage (baloon-lifted thermal turbojet with a circularizing NERVA), which would rendevous with the earth return stage in orbit. (which may double as a beamed-power saterlite for the duration of the visit)

Or we do this.

....Suppose we could connect the two with a 50km cable, so it's not as affect by the weather? And ascent stage rendezvous would be as easy as winching in the bathysphere.

[Hannu]

Why is the production plant on the ground? the ground is deeper in the gravity well, it's unspeakably hot, and it's far from the acid you're converting.

Better to hve the plant suspended by oxygen balloon in the cloud layer where it can still receve some solar power for cracking the acid, and the temperature is cool enough to manage.

I thought that we discuss about manned surface activities on Venus. Of course, it is are pure scifi, about as achievable as interstellar missions. I think that also such balloons are not realistic with current or foreseeable material tech. Balloons can lift little and short lived scientific probes, but not fuel production plant of any reasonable size and lifetime.

I also suspect that there are not any good reason for manned activity in Venus's upper atmosphere even if it was possible. Except possible of some kind of technical support for surface activities (for example aircraft carrier like platform, where you change interplanetary rockets to planes for low atmosphere operations). You can not do other things than take gas samples and make measurements which robots can do as well. Surface geology and conditions have much more fine details and unpredictable things (both scientific and practical) and a scientist can produce far more "science points" and solve problem situations than a robot. I think that atmospheric operations have not same prestige as surface operations. It is more important motivation to real space exploration than science. You can not say that you have been on planet X if you have not walked on its surface.

[Hannu]

In theory it would be possible to get water by breaking H2SO4 -molecules by using solar energy. However, as far as I know any known form of life do not have such a chemistry or anything like that. It is quite sure that any of earth's microbes can not live in Venus's atmosphere. It is another question could such life be possible. I think that nobody can answer it. We know only our form of life and it does not tell much which is possible in some other circumstances.

[dbmorpher]

In theory it would be possible to get water by breaking H2SO4 -molecules by using solar energy. However, as far as I know any known form of life do not have such a chemistry or anything like that. It is quite sure that any of earth's microbes can not live in Venus's atmosphere. It is another question could such life be possible. I think that nobody can answer it. We know only our form of life and it does not tell much which is possible in some other circumstances.

There is a form of life capable of doing that, it's called sugarcane.

Also while a balloon habitat may not be feasible on earth, when the atmosphere is 95 times denser and normal human air is a lifting gas with the same buoyancy as helium on earth it does make sense.

With a proper greenhouse system, oxygen can be separated by the CO2 in the atmosphere by plants and replenish the supply.

[NERVAfan]

I think that also such balloons are not realistic with current or foreseeable material tech. Balloons can lift little and short lived scientific probes, but not fuel production plant of any reasonable size and lifetime.

I dunno. Due to the square-cube law, balloons/airships actually perform better when bigger*. According to my (very limited admittedly) understanding, we don't have ultra-huge balloons/airships due to cost/lack of much real use, not because the technology isn't there.

*You can have much tougher/heavier envelope for a bigger one, since the surface area to volume ratio decreases as the size increases.

I also suspect that there are not any good reason for manned activity in Venus's upper atmosphere even if it was possible.

I think it's actually one of the better places in the solar system to colonize. There is C/H/O/N (the main elements of life) available in the atmosphere/clouds (from CO2, N2, and H2SO4) and temperature and pressure are Earthlike.

The Earthlike pressure means the colony doesn't need a pressure hull, only a thin skin, and if there is a leak air won't rush out or Venus atmosphere rush in - if there is equal pressure on both sides the atmosphere will mix only by diffusion, vastly slower than a leak when you have vacuum or Mars atmosphere outside.

(Also, gravity is Earthlike, which some people think is very important -- though I tend to think long term exposure to Mars gravity will be fine; you could just wear weighted clothes to get an Earthlike effect if necessary...)

[Creeperchair]

Well, let's think about that more, shall we?

1. Venus already has a substantial atmosphere.

2. Venus is almost earth-size/mass/gravity.

3. Venus is further from the edges of the habitable zone than Mars.

4. Venus has tectonic movement.

5. Venus has about as much water as Mars, and neither of them have magnetic fields.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus#Magnetic_field_and_core Edited October 10, 2014 by Creeperchair

[meve12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus#Magnetic_field_and_core

OK, that could be a problem. How good is an atmosphere at blocking radiation?

[SelectHalfling0]

The EVA suit would be terribly unwieldy, but better than nothing. It would probably look like one of those cast iron deep diving suit with extremely small view ports. Also, it would have to include carbon-fiber, because carbon fiber.

[ScriptKitt3h]

A better way to land on Venus: terraform it first, then land on it once it's habitable (to a reasonable extent).

This could be accomplished via chemicals being used to alter the chemistry of Venus' atmosphere, and/or by such things as bombarding it with tons of water-rich comets.

As for long-term regulation of the planet, we could build orbiting mirror-sat platforms using 3-D printed parts with asteroid minerals as the raw materials, as well as floating "balloon outposts" that act as air-filtration systems that could circle the globe slowly over time in the upper atmosphere (where it's somewhat comparable to earth in that the temperature's livable and there CO2 levels are lower).

Then, we could easily carry out a manned landing, one that could actually STAY and set up a surface colony there. Of course, the next step would be to introduce extremophile flora to the surface to help speed up the process of terraforming...

That's just my two cents' worth though.