Private Spaceflight, what are you options? what are your costs?

[Moon Goddess]

I wanna explore the costs and options for like a independent space program.

Just for fun, it's all hypothetical I can hardly pay my bills but, hey a girl can dream.

Virgin Galactic says they'll take me to "space" for $250,000. That's nice and all but they're not really flying yet.

The russians will take me to the space station, used to be $20million but the costs appear to be increasing the last lift was $40M. SpaceX says they'll do it cheaper, but once again, not flying yet.

Ok forget me, I get motion sickness anyways, and I'm a big 'fraidy cat. Lets put something up.

Back to SpaceX they'll put 13,150kg to LEO for $54 on a Falcon, Wow that's even more. And that's "the lowest cost per pound/kilogram to orbit" Well I don't need 13 metric tons. I'm thinking, a raspberry pi, a solar panel, a high power radio and a really good camera. So like lets say 50 pounds if I pack a big battery.

I need to pack on with someone else. I've seen programs like that before.. We're the put lots of little boxes on the same launch. I can't seem to find that now.

Where can I put my little computer in space with other peoples stuff?

Then further thoughts, things get crazier... What would it cost to take my little computer to Mars? I think any of us here can calculate how much delta-v we'd need to get it there, but what's rocket fuel cost? And um, How do I get the pictures back once it gets there? Is there even any private radio system that can receive mars?

Just crazy thoughts I wanted to get out of my head.

[Furiou5]

You can get things to LEO yourself fairly easily with a weather balloon.

This is a guy David Windestal who is flying an RC glider back from space:

You can also search for videos of other people sending computers and such. All you need is FAA permission which is not hard to get for sciency stuff.

[NovaSilisko]

You can get things to LEO yourself fairly easily with a weather balloon.

Unless your weather balloon is carrying a large rocket that is not going to happen.

[Furiou5]

Ok not LE "Orbit" correct but for all intents and purposes what this gal(pardon me) wants, and on the cheap(Comparatively).

Edited July 9, 2013 by Furiou5
pronoun mistake

[harbingerdawn]

This is a guy David Windestal who is flying an RC glider back from space

That is not space, nor is it even close to space. 33.103 kilometers is less than 1/3 the altitude of the internationally-recognized boundary of space (the Kármán line at 100 kilometers), and even lower still relative to the altitude of orbiting satellites. For comparison, the International Space Station orbits at a little over 400 kilometers, and even very low satellites (spy sats, for example) don't orbit lower than 150 kilometers, and even then they need to use a lot of propellent to prevent falling out of orbit too quickly.

[Moon Goddess]

Well that would account for one thing I talked about yeah... And I may actually try that someday, but lets actually talk about more expensive dreams. That's more fun.

I'd love to put something up that would stay up for a while, turn it and take pictures of the moon and stars and stuff from orbit.

Or what about putting my little computer on mars, weather balloon can't do that.

Yeah see I'm going for the silly dreams

I really am curious what the cheapest you could put "something" on mars.

I did find what I was talking about with the boxes. CubeSat, in another thread that I guess I should have read right before I posted this thread instead of after.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Moon Goddess

[Furiou5]

Yes you guys are right! I am the idiot of science, I have no idea what I am talking about, and I should not even be allowed to talk. Now that is out of the way I am going to CONTRIBUTE to the conversation.

Looking it up further, as just a private citizen you can get licensed to get rocket engines up to O class by the time you are launching stuff that large you are looking at tens of thousands or more into the hobby. You have to take tests, it probably costs money, and you may also have to have a certain number of launches of Level 1 and Level 2 rockets(Other licensing levels). You also have to get permits to launch, and file reports after successful, or failed launches.

O class engines are not that big either, I think I saw 8000lbs of thrust(Science fact so probably wrong, peanut gallery?). I could not find anything on launching larger class engines; I suspect that if you are in the group allowed to launch them, you probably know how to go about it.

[Nibb31]

Phonesats are variants of cubesats, based on an off-the-shelf smartphone, which already has a lot of hardware that is useful for a satellite bus (GPS, a camera, gyroscopes, sensors, etc...). You can build one for a few thousand dollars.

The biggest difficulty for launching a cubesat is finding a slot on a commercial launch. Although they are considered as secondary (or even tertiary) payloads, it will still cost you over $50K to get it to LEO. I suppose that's still affordable for a private individual, if you have the motivation to do it.

Now, to get to Mars would require some sort of propulsion. I don't think there are any interplanetary grade upper stages that are sized for a cubesat, and there is usually no extra space to piggyback on institutional exploration missions. If you really want to land a cubesat on Mars, your only option would be to make some sort of tiny propulsion system and reentry/landing gear (probably some sort of inflatable heatshield coupled with an airbag). Those would be very advanced one-off prototypes, so expect a price tag in the range of several million dollars. I suspect that it might not be possible to fit all that stuff inside a 3U cubesat.

I reallyt don't think it's possible to make a Mars probe in the Cubesat form factor. Actually, the defining factor for your package size would probably be the antenna, the radio transmitter and the power source, which would have to be pretty large if you want to get any information back from Mars. You will probably need at least a few hundred kilos and millions of dollars to spare.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Nibb31

[Copenhagen_Suborbitals]

Join us at www.copenhagensuborbitals.com and learn how to do it yourself

[Frogbull]

I like this shuttle Boeing concept :

3 stages-planes-rockets recoverables.

[Moon Goddess]

Yes you guys are right! I am the idiot of science, I have no idea what I am talking about, and I should not even be allowed to talk. Now that is out of the way I am going to CONTRIBUTE to the conversation.

If you feel I insulted you, I apologize, it was not my intent.

Phonesats are variants of cubesats, based on an off-the-shelf smartphone, which already has a lot of hardware that is useful for a satellite bus (GPS, a camera, gyroscopes, sensors, etc...). You can build one for a few thousand dollars.

The biggest difficulty for launching a cubesat is finding a slot on a commercial launch. Although they are considered as secondary (or even tertiary) payloads, it will still cost you over $50K to get it to LEO. I suppose that's still affordable for a private individual, if you have the motivation to do it.

Now, to get to Mars would require some sort of propulsion. I don't think there are any interplanetary grade upper stages that are sized for a cubesat, and there is usually no extra space to piggyback on institutional exploration missions. If you really want to land a cubesat on Mars, your only option would be to make some sort of tiny propulsion system and reentry/landing gear (probably some sort of inflatable heatshield coupled with an airbag). Those would be very advanced one-off prototypes, so expect a price tag in the range of several million dollars. I suspect that it might not be possible to fit all that stuff inside a 3U cubesat.

I reallyt don't think it's possible to make a Mars probe in the Cubesat form factor. Actually, the defining factor for your package size would probably be the antenna, the radio transmitter and the power source, which would have to be pretty large if you want to get any information back from Mars. You will probably need at least a few hundred kilos and millions of dollars to spare.

Thank you, these are some of the things I was looking for, that $50K number I couldn't find anywhere, awesome.

And yeah Mars is insane but I'm enjoying the insane. So are we thinking private mars probe is more or less expensive than riding a Soyuz?

[Kryten]

Well, Soyuz seat is now ~$30 million. India's new Mars probe is cheapest I've seen, ~$75 million for the probe, launcher brings it up to $100 million. Obviously you could do a smaller probe, but I don't think there's a lot of downsizing you can really do without not having a big enough engine to get there or big enough antennae to return useful information at that distance.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Kryten

[kahlzun]

These guys are apparantly putting a model TARDIS (basically a cubesat) as payload to LEO for 33k

[Alfastar]

Back to SpaceX they'll put 13,150kg to LEO for $54 on a Falcon, Wow that's even more. And that's "the lowest cost per pound/kilogram to orbit" Well I don't need 13 metric tons. I'm thinking, a raspberry pi, a solar panel, a high power radio and a really good camera. So like lets say 50 pounds if I pack a big battery.

Well, first of all. The cost of a Falcon-9 1.1 launch are still unknown. SpaceX SAYS that it cost $54 million dollars, but do we seen any independent costs calculations of a Falcon 9 1.1 launch? And is SpaceX really busy with earning profits?

Well, no. SpaceX just starting this year with the first commercial launches. But, there still goes on mostly with Dragon launches. And in LEO, you barely can make profit. The real profit makers are MEO/GEO launches. There spend million and million dollars with government funds to launch a new Dragon, a new Falcon 9 (and Heavy) rocket and maybe in the future even more rockets. Meanwhile, there will AGAIN have a new launchpad. First there was plans for launching Falcon 1 from Vandenberg, then it was that island somewhere by Kwajalein. Then there will go launch Falcon 9's from the Cape, then there will go back to Vandenberg, and now there got plans for a whole new launch site somewhere in Texas. And who going to pay that? NASA (Government funds)

And then about the launch cost self of the Falcon 9 (1.1), I don't believe $54 million dollars are a realistic number. It maybe is so low now, because SpaceX is largely supported by government funds (NASA, with CCDev, and COTS). But when there is not more that. I surely bet the launch price of a Falcon 9 (1.1) launch would be between $70 million and $120 million dollars, and then I be mild about it. Some even tells that the launch price would be above $140 million dollars!

No, I'm not a SpaceX-hugger.

[PakledHostage]

Phonesats are variants of cubesats, based on an off-the-shelf smartphone, which already has a lot of hardware that is useful for a satellite bus (GPS, a camera, gyroscopes, sensors, etc...). You can build one for a few thousand dollars.

Something to be aware of is that civilian GPS is restricted to certain altitudes and speeds, depending on the standard that the hardware was designed to. The hardware will be designed to either COCOM export restriction requirements or to the Waasenaar Arrangement requirements. The COCOM export restrictions have been replaced by the Waasenaar Arrangement. Waasenaar imposes different limitations than COCOM.

Under the COCOM rules, you won't get any GPS fixes above 18 000 m if you're travelling faster than 515 m/s. You also won't get any fixes above 100 000 m no matter how fast you're moving.

Under the Waasenaar rules, the altitude restriction has been dropped but velocity is still restricted to 600 m/s, no matter what the altitude.

[stibbons]

Rather than launching your own satellite, you can buy processor time on other satellites. A week of uptime on an ArduSat only costs $250US. If you have something specific in mind, it seems like a pretty cheap way to get some time on some hardware in orbit.

Also check out the Pocket Spacecraft kickstarter. £450 to load your own software on to a spacecraft that will land on the moon.

[Kryten]

That 'pocket spacecraft' one actually does involve you 'buying' your own spacecraft: the cost is so low because each one is an extremely thin film disk with all the components printed on.

[magnemoe]

I like this shuttle Boeing concept :

3 stages-planes-rockets recoverables.

Strangest configuration I have seen.

How will this work then you use up the fuel in the lower plane?

My only guess is that you use cross-feed and both gimbal and lower trust on first stage until its empty and you separates.

[DisarmingBaton5]

Unless your weather balloon is carrying a large rocket that is not going to happen.

A REALLY BIG weather balloon, maybe.

And some boosters. Let's not forget those.

[mardlamock]

Make a large solid fuel rocket, put it on lots of weather ballons and when it hits 30 km drop your rocket.

[mardlamock]

could be done

[rpayne88]

Back to SpaceX they'll put 13,150kg to LEO for $54 on a Falcon, Wow that's even more. And that's "the lowest cost per pound/kilogram to orbit" Well I don't need 13 metric tons. I'm thinking, a raspberry pi, a solar panel, a high power radio and a really good camera. So like lets say 50 pounds if I pack a big battery.

$54 million or fifty four dollars and zero cents. Something tells me it the former.

[metaphor]

There's an interplanetary plasma thruster system currently in development with a kickstarter project. It would need to be 3 cubesats put together, with about 1.5 of them being taken up by the engine, fuel, and solar panels. So you would have 1.5 cubesats left over for the payload. Half a cubesat's worth could be a small heat shield, and you wouldn't need a parachute or retrorockets for such a small payload, just an airbag. So you might end up with something like 1 kg on the surface of Mars.

The solar panels would be enough to power your spacecraft on the long cruise to Mars, but you couldn't carry those to the surface. You could carry a small battery that might last a few days, to power the computer, a camera, some sensors, and transmitting equipment. If you could rent some bandwidth from NASA's spacecraft orbiting Mars, like the MRO, you wouldn't need large antennas. You could maybe get a few pictures from the surface of Mars with this probe.

As far as costs go, launching the 3-cubesat spacecraft would cost about $150k, the interplanetary engine probably another $100k, and the rest maybe $200k. You might be able to use a smartphone for the computer and camera, but you would need to radiation harden it or have more than one for redundancy. You might need to do a lot of testing to make sure everything works right, but overall I think it might be doable for less than $1 million.