[1.0.5] TAC Life Support v0.11.2.1 [12Dec]

[Horman]

Is there a way, to say, that, for example, Kerbals running on Kerbin, dont use any Electricity or something like that..

I would like to have a groundcrew out without having to track them every few hours.

[Orange_Ignition]

im having an issue with running tacls and Tarsier Space Tech Telescopes mod, Tac simply wont load in any save game or new game while i ahve tarsier installed, i went through all my mods one by one(it was a pita..) until i found what was messing with TAC, any ideas?

also is this anything you need to know that's appearing in debug log?

[Log]: Tac.AddLifeSupport[C9D3EB80][1203.63]: The expected exception is still happening when adding the Life Support part module to the EVA: Object reference not set to an instance of an object

at Part.AddModule (System.String moduleName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at Part.AddModule (.ConfigNode node) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at Tac.AddLifeSupport.EvaAddPartModule (.Part part) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

Edited September 29, 2014 by Orange_Ignition

[TaranisElsu]

is there a general strategy for a self sustaining life support system, or do you always need outside resources feeding into the loop like something generated by another mod such as MKS

What @undercoveryankee said.

Is there a way, to say, that, for example, Kerbals running on Kerbin, dont use any Electricity or something like that..

I would like to have a groundcrew out without having to track them every few hours.

I will look at that for the next version: https://github.com/taraniselsu/TacLifeSupport/issues/44.

Until then, know that the current version does not kill Kerbals if they run out of electricity while on Kerbin and below roughly 3.4km (0.5 atm). They will still require food and water though. That's a separate issue, and I'm not sure when to require them and when not to. There aren't any grocery stores nearby when landed on the north pole .

im having an issue with running tacls and Tarsier Space Tech Telescopes mod, Tac simply wont load in any save game or new game while i ahve tarsier installed, i went through all my mods one by one(it was a pita..) until i found what was messing with TAC, any ideas?

also is this anything you need to know that's appearing in debug log?

[Log]: Tac.AddLifeSupport[C9D3EB80][1203.63]: The expected exception is still happening when adding the Life Support part module to the EVA: Object reference not set to an instance of an object

at Part.AddModule (System.String moduleName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at Part.AddModule (.ConfigNode node) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at Tac.AddLifeSupport.EvaAddPartModule (.Part part) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

1. Where is your log file? Read the OP and/or the links in my signature.
   
2. Why is "expected" not understood? Should I reword that? Or give in and hide it? It happens because there is an error in Squad's code, but it does not cause any bad things to happen. I want to take out my work-around as soon as Squad fixes it on their end.
   
3. There was an issue with TACLS+Tarsier -- it's probably a couple pages back by now. We also posted on their thread, so you can read more about it there. Make sure that you have the latest version of Tarsier. There was a version that threw an error that prevented other mods from loading.
   But if you are getting that exception when you have both mods installed, then that is a different problem, and there isn't much I can do to help without a full log file.
   

[Wanderfound]

Has anyone done any research on how heavy and bulky realistic LS supplies should be?

[TaranisElsu]

Has anyone done any research on how heavy and bulky realistic LS supplies should be?

Yes: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aioc9ek3XAvwdGNsRlh3OVhlbTFBR3M4RW0zLUNTRFE&usp=sharing. I didn't find any good numbers for how bulky everything should be though. Water is easy. Food is difficult.

[Wanderfound]

Yes: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aioc9ek3XAvwdGNsRlh3OVhlbTFBR3M4RW0zLUNTRFE&usp=sharing. I didn't find any good numbers for how bulky everything should be though. Water is easy. Food is difficult.

So the implication of that is that TAC is intended to represent accurately scaled weights? Years of supply from a small radial canister or two is just the result of short Kerbin days and small Kerbal stomachs?

For food density, I'd guess that anything less than water is probably defensible, equal to water is probably simplest.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Wanderfound

[Hevak]

NEvermind, took awhile but found the answer

Edited October 1, 2014 by Hevak

[panarchist]

So the implication of that is that TAC is intended to represent accurately scaled weights? Years of supply from a small radial canister or two is just the result of short Kerbin days and small Kerbal stomachs?

For food density, I'd guess that anything less than water is probably defensible, equal to water is probably simplest.

For space food, the best current reference is NASA publication CR-2004-208941: Advanced Life Support and Baseline Assumptions. The Atomic Rocket site hosts a copy here.

That document lists food density as 0.0048m3 per 1.76kg (0.00272m3/kg, or 2.72L/kg) - or 366.67kg/m3 for food "Food As-Shipped, Packaged, and within a Container"

Food "As-Consumed, Packaged" is 0.00286m3/kg or 2.86L/kg (350kg/m3)

Above numbers are calculated from the numbers given for mass and volume in Table 4.3.1 on page 56 of the document (PDF page 68)

Another reference is the standard Army MRE (Meal, Ready to Eat) - a case of 12 is 42cmx27cmx24cm (0.027m3) and masses 10kg, for a (packaged) density of (again) 0.367kg/L - apparently ISS either uses relabeled MREs, or NASA took some packaging tips from the US Army when designing the food.

[CloudyMN1979]

So TLS works fine for me in sandbox and science modes, but not at all in career mode. I can't find any information on this any anywhere. Anyone know what the problem is? I'm using the latest versions of TLS, toolbar, and MM. There is no crash or anything so I can't post a log. The toolbar button simply won't show up in career mode, and the settings window won't show up when I start a new game. All the parts and resources are present but nothing is consumed after launch, but like I said, they all work fine in science and sandbox.

[noob1]

So TLS works fine for me in sandbox and science modes, but not at all in career mode. I can't find any information on this any anywhere. Anyone know what the problem is? I'm using the latest versions of TLS, toolbar, and MM. There is no crash or anything so I can't post a log. The toolbar button simply won't show up in career mode, and the settings window won't show up when I start a new game. All the parts and resources are present but nothing is consumed after launch, but like I said, they all work fine in science and sandbox.

same. no resources consumed. no waste created.

[CloudyMN1979]

Okay, figured it out. It's an incompatibility with Tarsier Space Technology. Which sucks because both mods rock, but playing without TAC isn't even an option. So I just went with Cacteye and this long forgotten gem right here. If I had only read back about 20 more pages I could have learned that from this thread but I didn't, so hopefully this will help anyone who has the same problem before page 234. Cheers.

[TranceaddicT]

TaranisElsu,

Forgive me, but I'm as a loss for your numbers. Not that they aren't correct, but I can't derive similar numbers back-calculating. I've calculated resource usage by meticulously whittling the values to the 10th (yeah, I did) place. I took a small MFT container zero'd out the tanks and ran the number up until each one had the same duration presented in the LSBuildAid; then I moved those to a spreadsheet. When I compare the spreadsheet calcs to the default values established, they don't match.

Trying to balance the 6 resources against one another is horrid. Ultimately, I'm trying to develop a spreadsheet that I can use to calculate the resource balance I need to add to achieve a specified duration.

[Aedile]

TaranisElsu,

Forgive me, but I'm as a loss for your numbers. Not that they aren't correct, but I can't derive similar numbers back-calculating. I've calculated resource usage by meticulously whittling the values to the 10th (yeah, I did) place. I took a small MFT container zero'd out the tanks and ran the number up until each one had the same duration presented in the LSBuildAid; then I moved those to a spreadsheet. When I compare the spreadsheet calcs to the default values established, they don't match.

Trying to balance the 6 resources against one another is horrid. Ultimately, I'm trying to develop a spreadsheet that I can use to calculate the resource balance I need to add to achieve a specified duration.

Well used to be 1 unit 1 day, but people really wanted liters. Now using MFT is pretty 'interesting'

[seanth]

TaranisElsu,

Forgive me, but I'm as a loss for your numbers. Not that they aren't correct, but I can't derive similar numbers back-calculating. I've calculated resource usage by meticulously whittling the values to the 10th (yeah, I did) place. I took a small MFT container zero'd out the tanks and ran the number up until each one had the same duration presented in the LSBuildAid; then I moved those to a spreadsheet. When I compare the spreadsheet calcs to the default values established, they don't match.

Trying to balance the 6 resources against one another is horrid. Ultimately, I'm trying to develop a spreadsheet that I can use to calculate the resource balance I need to add to achieve a specified duration.

My quick estimate says 1 kerbal will consume about 0.003L of O2 per second. The (for me) amazing thing is that translates into the same L/sec CO2 production. These are just back-of-the napkin estimates. I've never actually sat down and measured in-game consumption of the kerbals, though.

[TaranisElsu]

My quick estimate says 1 kerbal will consume about 0.003L of O2 per second. The (for me) amazing thing is that translates into the same L/sec CO2 production. These are just back-of-the napkin estimates. I've never actually sat down and measured in-game consumption of the kerbals, though.

That's why I shared my spreadsheet. No calculations necessary since it is all there. Kerbals consume 0.001713537562385 L/sec of O₂, and generate 0.00148012889876 L/s of CO₂. After being compressed and stored, that works out to 0.167374919820398 L/sec of O₂ and 0.067134861694113 L/sec of CO₂. Not sure where you got the 0.003.

TaranisElsu,

Forgive me, but I'm as a loss for your numbers. Not that they aren't correct, but I can't derive similar numbers back-calculating. I've calculated resource usage by meticulously whittling the values to the 10th (yeah, I did) place. I took a small MFT container zero'd out the tanks and ran the number up until each one had the same duration presented in the LSBuildAid; then I moved those to a spreadsheet. When I compare the spreadsheet calcs to the default values established, they don't match.

Trying to balance the 6 resources against one another is horrid. Ultimately, I'm trying to develop a spreadsheet that I can use to calculate the resource balance I need to add to achieve a specified duration.

See my spreadsheet.

Okay, figured it out. It's an incompatibility with Tarsier Space Technology. Which sucks because both mods rock, but playing without TAC isn't even an option. So I just went with Cacteye and this long forgotten gem right here. If I had only read back about 20 more pages I could have learned that from this thread but I didn't, so hopefully this will help anyone who has the same problem before page 234. Cheers.

I thought tobyb121 had fixed the bug in his mod. Are you sure that you have the latest version? If you do, please post a full log file (see my signature for instructions). You should probably to let him know too.

So TLS works fine for me in sandbox and science modes, but not at all in career mode. I can't find any information on this any anywhere. Anyone know what the problem is? I'm using the latest versions of TLS, toolbar, and MM. There is no crash or anything so I can't post a log. The toolbar button simply won't show up in career mode, and the settings window won't show up when I start a new game. All the parts and resources are present but nothing is consumed after launch, but like I said, they all work fine in science and sandbox.

Emphasis mine. That is false. Please try to help spread the word. The log file that we want is always created immediately upon starting KSP. See my signature for instructions on where to find it. TL;DR is the file we want is named output_log.txt or Player.log (and not KSP.log).

For space food, the best current reference is NASA publication CR-2004-208941: Advanced Life Support and Baseline Assumptions. The Atomic Rocket site hosts a copy here.

That document lists food density as 0.0048m3 per 1.76kg (0.00272m3/kg, or 2.72L/kg) - or 366.67kg/m3 for food "Food As-Shipped, Packaged, and within a Container"

Food "As-Consumed, Packaged" is 0.00286m3/kg or 2.86L/kg (350kg/m3)

Above numbers are calculated from the numbers given for mass and volume in Table 4.3.1 on page 56 of the document (PDF page 68)

Another reference is the standard Army MRE (Meal, Ready to Eat) - a case of 12 is 42cmx27cmx24cm (0.027m3) and masses 10kg, for a (packaged) density of (again) 0.367kg/L - apparently ISS either uses relabeled MREs, or NASA took some packaging tips from the US Army when designing the food.

Thanks, I'll take a look at that later. I think that I arrived at 0.28102905982906 kg/L. You can see my sources and calculations in my spreadsheet. It's possible that the Army learned from NASA (lessons were probably shared both ways, but NASA probably started with the Army's methods.)

So the implication of that is that TAC is intended to represent accurately scaled weights? Years of supply from a small radial canister or two is just the result of short Kerbin days and small Kerbal stomachs?

For food density, I'd guess that anything less than water is probably defensible, equal to water is probably simplest.

Also keep in mind that the containers are fairly big. The middle size container is 1.25m (4.1 ft) in diameter by 0.25 m (0.8 ft) tall. How many days of food and water do you think you could pack in your car if that was all you were packing? And you optimized the packaging to take up as little room as possible?

So how many people have followed the link in the OP that says: "Read the full description"? There is lots more info available on my project wiki, including a link to the spreadsheet that I have referenced in this post. Did you know that I made a wiki?

[seanth]

That's why I shared my spreadsheet. No calculations necessary since it is all there. Kerbals consume 0.001713537562385 L/sec of O₂, and generate 0.00148012889876 L/s of CO₂. After being compressed and stored, that works out to 0.167374919820398 L/sec of O₂ and 0.067134861694113 L/sec of CO₂. Not sure where you got the 0.003.

See my spreadsheet.

I forgot you changed the mass of a kerbal. 0.003 L/sec O2 assumes ~35kg kerbal.

A question of clarification that never occurred to me until I read the above: what is this about compressed gasses? I never saw any resource definitions other than density for O2 and CO2 at ~STP. I never noticed since I only ever use TAC-LS for the kerbal metabolism.

[TaranisElsu]

I forgot you changed the mass of a kerbal. 0.003 L/sec O2 assumes ~35kg kerbal.

A question of clarification that never occurred to me until I read the above: what is this about compressed gasses? I never saw any resource definitions other than density for O2 and CO2 at ~STP. I never noticed since I only ever use TAC-LS for the kerbal metabolism.

See lines 36 & 137. And note that I am using STP = 0C, 100 kPa (because STP is not very standard).

[Wanderfound]

Also keep in mind that the containers are fairly big. The middle size container is 1.25m (4.1 ft) in diameter by 0.25 m (0.8 ft) tall. How many days of food and water do you think you could pack in your car if that was all you were packing? And you optimized the packaging to take up as little room as possible?

So how many people have followed the link in the OP that says: "Read the full description"? There is lots more info available on my project wiki, including a link to the spreadsheet that I have referenced in this post. Did you know that I made a wiki?

TaranisElsu, I wasn't criticizing, I was just clarifying that my understanding of the spreadsheet was correct. I'm glad to hear that TAC-LS is more realistic than I thought it was.

[seanth]

See lines 36 & 137. And note that I am using STP = 0C, 100 kPa (because STP is not very standard).

Oh, I saw it in the spreadsheet. I just never saw any indication of compressed gasses in the cfgs. That's all.

[TaranisElsu]

The Build Aid window in the VAB/SPH is not working at all. Also, the large and small parts are all the wrong size -- all of them are the middle size. I will be uploading a new build soon.

[fluidlogic]

The Build Aid window in the VAB/SPH is not working at all. Also, the large and small parts are all the wrong size -- all of them are the middle size. I will be uploading a new build soon.

Please do. The game is just NOT the same without it. Love the mod.

[Glorious Dear Leader]

Please do. The game is just NOT the same without it. Love the mod.

So true. I was a bit reserved with this mod at first thinking it would make KSP unnecessarily difficult, but man was I wrong. It brings this whole new level of challenge that gives rise to so many awesome missions with purpose.

[KhaosCorp]

So true. I was a bit reserved with this mod at first thinking it would make KSP unnecessarily difficult, but man was I wrong. It brings this whole new level of challenge that gives rise to so many awesome missions with purpose.

I stayed away from life support mods for the longest time for the same reason.....but it really adds more depth not difficulty, and TAC is by far the best LSmod imo.

[fluidlogic]

I stayed away from life support mods for the longest time for the same reason.....but it really adds more depth not difficulty, and TAC is by far the best LSmod imo.

Agreed. It didn't make things clunky or, worse, fragile. It just added another element. And made MKS/OKS better.

[Nathair]

Please do. The game is just NOT the same without it. Love the mod.

What he said.