[1.0.5] TAC Life Support v0.11.2.1 [12Dec]

[TaranisElsu]

To be fair, the mod is still marked as a work in progress.

True, but I prefer not to break peoples' saves.

[TaranisElsu]

Prerelease v0.5 is now available: http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/tac-life-support/

Due to popular demand, I have reverted my change to 6 hour Kerbin days. All units/rates/densities are again based on a 24 hour Earth day. Sorry for any issues this caused. Thank you for the feedback .

[WafflesToo]

Two easy ways to fix the resource naming issue: (backup everything first, especially your save file)

1. (Recommended) Go through your persistent.sfs and take the _TAC off the resource names. Should be able to do a Find & Replace "Food_TAC" with "Food", "Water_TAC" with "Water", etc. Or even Find & Replace "_TAC" with "" (case sensitive). You may also need to do the same thing to all of your vessel save files that you don't want to rebuild (in {KSP}\saves\{SaveName}\Ships\VAB or SPH)
   
2. Edit the LifeSupport.cfg file and add the _TAC back to the names, so "FoodResource = Food" becomes "FoodResource = Food_TAC" and edit TacResources.cfg and add the _TAC back. You will also need to go through all of the parts' cfg files and do the same thing.
   

No source code edits required.

I'm sorry about that

No worries

I like the improved readability with the renamed resources. Looks like an easy fix too.

[sidfu]

imo instead of doing a vesion change wouldnt it have been better to just put them as seprate .cfg downloads.

[Lightwarrior]

So i took single "bio-fuel module" from "Renewable Bio Fuel Modules" mod and modified it basicaly to convert Waste to Food. But it requires not only Waste, but LOTS of electricity (~80 EC/s total), also it converts some CO2 to O2 as byproduct (with some loss, and CO2 is required for all process), and uses lots of Water (converts to Waste water).

I tried to make all those numbers balanced and to make this process expensive enough, but there may be some flaws. And sorry for all those mistakes

Here are modified files.

[sidfu]

So i took single "bio-fuel module" from "Renewable Bio Fuel Modules" mod and modified it basicaly to convert Waste to Food. But it requires not only Waste, but LOTS of electricity (~80 EC/s total), also it converts some CO2 to O2 as byproduct (with some loss, and CO2 is required for all process), and uses lots of Water (converts to Waste water).

I tried to make all those numbers balanced and to make this process expensive enough, but there may be some flaws. And sorry for all those mistakes

Here are modified files.

only the .cfg needed to be posted not all the files.

[Lightwarrior]

Thought it would be easithir to pack all, but if you think that posting only .cfg is better here it is:

part.cfg

BioMass.cfg (removed some resources here to avoid conflicts).

[Frederf]

Please don't name your resources *_TAC it looks ugly and is purposefully anti-compatibility.

[TaranisElsu]

Please don't name your resources *_TAC it looks ugly and is purposefully anti-compatibility.

The "_TAC" is gone from the names as of the 0.3 release. That was put there to avoid conflicts with other mods, especially since this is still a work in progress.

[Algiark]

So I was thinking, TAC Life Support could be a colony add-on on its own. It could be similar to Kethane, only instead of Kethane, you would have to scan for & mine water. Water on a celestial body can be converted to other resources and as long as you have access to water, you can survive indefinitely. Because when people say we are going to Mars, they don't say "we will go there and be back as soon as we can", they say "we will settle the [sUNSHINE] out of that planet."

Just a suggestion

Edited November 21, 2013 by Specialist290
Mild profanity.

[Temeriki]

So I was thinking, TAC Life Support could be a colony add-on on its own. It could be similar to Kethane, only instead of Kethane, you would have to scan for & mine water. Water on a celestial body can be converted to other resources and as long as you have access to water, you can survive indefinitely. Because when people say we are going to Mars, they don't say "we will go there and be back as soon as we can", they say "we will settle the [sUNSHINE] out of that planet."

Just a suggestion

You could bounce off the kethane API for resource generation.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Specialist290
Quoted mild profanity.

[LORDPrometheus]

I'm doing a realism run with remote tech deadly recently kerbal economy this mod and Kraft planet factory with the help of mechjeb and FAR, and joint reinforcements and labor mod, and Kethane.... Anything else?..... That's it.

[AbeS]

LORDPrometheus you are missing Real Solar System and Modular Fuel System!

[LORDPrometheus]

LORDPrometheus you are missing Real Solar System and Modular Fuel System!

Thanks for the advice however real solar system eats too much ram to use with planet factory unfortunately

[Csar]

I use this with KAS alot for Home bases, but i have two quick questions:

1) is it possible to add some form of container into the KAS compatible bays?

2) i've read here that you want to stay away from 100% rec, but for far away bases that seems counter-intuitive, theres that item in the game that only works in atmo, perhaps it could be modded into a greenhouse type that works only on planets? Just an idea.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Csar

[Keloooe_Pest]

Hmmmm.... I'm about to check this mod out when I get home, but before I do, is there the opportunity that you can code in some machines that can create the resources while costing electricity? Then you can have them on your stations and make manned missions last longer!

[Csar]

Hmmmm.... I'm about to check this mod out when I get home, but before I do, is there the opportunity that you can code in some machines that can create the resources while costing electricity? Then you can have them on your stations and make manned missions last longer!

There are "recyclers" you can put on to keep ressources going for much longer. I believe the only non rec, is food. So you'll need either large quantities of it (although i think they live 30days without food?) or send supplies.

[Temeriki]

To #2 The technology to be self sustaining beyond earth/kearth is non existent, but were close. The thing is theres always going to be raw materials needed, recycling efficiency can never be 100%, yes, greenhouses and such could grow food, but without genetic engineering or additional supplements the diet will not be complete. And as for planets, not every planet in the Kerbol system has atmosphere, some have a very thin atmosphere. Also, what would stop a greenhouse from working in space(could be an algae farm)? If you want to read about a crazy future about humans first steps into outer space you need to read Kim Stanley Robinson's, The Mars Trilogy. The "sequel" 2312 is wayyyyyy out there, but still both are some awesome space opera sci fi.

[TaranisElsu]

I have a new version but have not had the time to thoroughly test it yet. I decided to make it available early for anyone who wants it.

*** Keep in mind: this is a seriously untested dev version. Do not use unless you want to help me test it. ***

https://www.dropbox.com/s/a727gnedbcfzv26/TacLifeSupport_untested-dev-0.6.13326.21.zip

Changes

• Reworked the way everything is calculated/tracked. It now tries to monitor far away vessels.
  
• Oxygen is handled at the vessel level instead of per Kerbal. Electricity usage has always been that way. Food and Water are still handled at the individual Kerbal level.
  
• Redid the in-flight windows (monitoring and roster)
  
• Consumption calculations are now limited to a MaxDeltaTime per update tick. I did that so recycle and consumption calculations can alternate. And so the consumption calculations do not kill a Kerbal because you have not loaded the vessel in a really really long time but had a recycler that would have made the resources last long enough. This might cause it to take numerous updates to catch up if you have not loaded a vessel in a really really long time.
  

The resources low warnings and slowing time warp currently only work for nearby vessels, not far away ones. You can watch their resources in the monitoring window, but warnings for them are not working yet.

[sidfu]

Thanks for the advice however real solar system eats too much ram to use with planet factory unfortunately

its other way around planet factory uses around 600mb of ram rescale dont even use a fraction of that

[Aknar]

First of all, great mod, really love it, keep up the good work. I've been interested in life support mods for some time now and I've been through the few there are a couple times each but yours has had a clear advantage since it has more features. The EVA life support, taking resources from cockpit for EVA, warnings and warp cut, passive crafts taken in charge, estimated time to resource depletion were a great touch to the mod. These features give a real sense to life support.

I'm not going to go over the usual complaints we can find in all the pages of this thread. I don't see why 100% recycling would be a priority and for the tanks and textures, the ones on this link are really nice: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/43840-Hab-Hub-%28and-other-strange-things%29, as well as nothke's Flexrack as well as portable backpacks on this thread: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/27587-WIP-FLEXrack-%28formerly-known-as-KASPAR%29-Portable-Payload-Racks?highlight=kaspar that have been offered graciously by the author for use with this mod and that I'd love to have but doesn't seem to be out yet.

I'll avoid mentioning the known issues with EVA and other elements that are concerned by this topic but have already been mentioned.

Like a minority of people on this thread (wile1411 and regex), I'm wondering why all resources have the same value. It doesn't make much sense in that case, might as well only have one resource for them all. Although I'd see the point in trying to put only the exact amount of resources necessary to survive for a limited time, and trying to synchronize those amounts so as to have zero left-overs, this seems excessive and slightly boring. An Apollo 13, "lets try to keep the guys alive by switching between fuel consumption, oxygen levels and electrical use" style mission is so much more exciting. We aren't gonna cut a sandwich in 8/10 so that the Kerbal ends it as he runs out of Oxygen. Food could run out before water since they can survive a long time without and besides Kerbals can't stand the idea of saving a sandwich for later, they'd be fighting over it as soon as they get into orbit ^^ Oxygen should be the first to go, since it's consumed quickly and wouldn't be recycled in small ships. This should especially be the threat on EVA instead of electricity (loosing control on jet-pack could be a great touch by the way). And you should take off the food resource on EVA since they aren't going to eat on a spacewalk and they are certainly going to die of oxygen depletion before. Not taking this resource for EVA will further unbalance the resources and will make it more interesting to replenish them for example with resource rendezvous. All These elements should also be considered with the waste that shouldn't be synchronized to the resources, they should be created in smaller amounts than the used resources.

Some of the other ideas I have can seem a bit far-fetched but bear with me :

How cool would that be to See the resources be consumed periodically instead of seeing them go down in a constant, stable way?

Also, If the Kerbals ate the resources at varying rates, it would be awesome. We want to synchronize those resources as much as possible and have some realism. Kerbals would eat once in a while at different moments.

Do you think a Kerbal reaction script is within your reach? Playing with values could make them change faces and make them look worried when they are lacking resources. That would really be great. Let's push this far fetched idea to make them consume more or less depending on their state of mind. So that EVAs and launches would have a burnout effect on the Kerbals.

Can I add rationing as another idea of next upgrade to the mod? comfortable, normal, scarce, and survival? this would have an effect on the faces they make and the burnout if you ever managed to add it?

All this would make life support harder to handle but also much more realistic and natural. It would give another feel to life support and really give life to the Kerbals.

I'm not a modder myself and I know some of these ideas would be a lot of work to make possible and all I do is play with the values with notepad++, so I'm launching ideas out there and hope they are well received.

Last thing, I've been having problems with oxygen resource, even on your previous versions. It appears but won't be spent like the other resources. Since the Kerbals don't die from it and changing resource consumption doesn't help, I'm assuming there must be a missing link in the code since it isn't considered in game as a resource needed for Kerbal survival.

[krenshala]

I have a new version but have not had the time to thoroughly test it yet. I decided to make it available early for anyone who wants it.

*** Keep in mind: this is a seriously untested dev version. Do not use unless you want to help me test it. ***

https://www.dropbox.com/s/a727gnedbcfzv26/TacLifeSupport_untested-dev-0.6.13326.21.zip

Changes

• Reworked the way everything is calculated/tracked. It now tries to monitor far away vessels.
  
• Oxygen is handled at the vessel level instead of per Kerbal. Electricity usage has always been that way. Food and Water are still handled at the individual Kerbal level.
  
• Redid the in-flight windows (monitoring and roster)
  
• Consumption calculations are now limited to a MaxDeltaTime per update tick. I did that so recycle and consumption calculations can alternate. And so the consumption calculations do not kill a Kerbal because you have not loaded the vessel in a really really long time but had a recycler that would have made the resources last long enough. This might cause it to take numerous updates to catch up if you have not loaded a vessel in a really really long time.
  

The resources low warnings and slowing time warp currently only work for nearby vessels, not far away ones. You can watch their resources in the monitoring window, but warnings for them are not working yet.

I just thought I'd let you know I pulled the latest verison from GitHub today, and it appears to have fixed the crash-to-desktop I was getting while using 0.5.133 (I pulled from Spaceport a couple of days ago). I haven't experienced any problems ... yet. Its early in Career mode for me, however, so nobody has gone more than half-way to GKO so far. Just got my comm-array in orbit, so next is a trip to the Mun; I'll get a good test of lifesupport on those missions.

[AlchemicalAgent]

I'm wondering why all resources have the same value. It doesn't make much sense in that case, might as well only have one resource for them all.

If you are flying/landed on a planet with breathable atmosphere you don't need the oxygen resource. That reason alone is enough to keep them separate.

[Guest]

Like a minority of people on this thread (wile1411 and regex), I'm wondering why all resources have the same value.

You are mistaken, I don't wonder why all resources have the same value. All of the resources used in this pack have different densities and are consumed at different rates, it's just that the way the math works out a Kerbal uses one resource of each type per 24-hour day. This is ideal for several reasons, not least of which is the lack of confusion regarding "at-a-glance" time left and the "sane" number of resources (you'll probably never have more than 10000 on one ship).

It doesn't make much sense in that case, might as well only have one resource for them all.

No, because Oxygen can be used from atmosphere on Kerbin and Laythe. Furthermore, Water can be split in Oxygen and could also potentially be used to grow Food. There are game reasons for limiting life support to a single resource but it also makes sense to split it up into three abstracts. This section of the Wikipedia article is what this LS mod is based upon and, while it may not be perfect or accommodate everyone's needs, it is a good abstract reference for what a Kerbal might use as life support. It also allows for some greater complexities than a simple "life support" resource. YMMV and there are two other LS mods out there for that particular reason; each of them caters to a different set of players.

One of the great things about TACLS, though, is just how customizable it is.

Although I'd see the point in trying to put only the exact amount of resources necessary to survive for a limited time, and trying to synchronize those amounts so as to have zero left-overs, this seems excessive and slightly boring. An Apollo 13, "lets try to keep the guys alive by switching between fuel consumption, oxygen levels and electrical use" style mission is so much more exciting. We aren't gonna cut a sandwich in 8/10 so that the Kerbal ends it as he runs out of Oxygen. Food could run out before water since they can survive a long time without and besides Kerbals can't stand the idea of saving a sandwich for later, they'd be fighting over it as soon as they get into orbit ^^ Oxygen should be the first to go, since it's consumed quickly and wouldn't be recycled in small ships.

Resources being used at a constant rate is an abstraction that other LS mods might attempt to get around. I know the ECLSS author was talking about Kerbals just sitting on a toilet 24/7 generating waste; I get where he's coming from but this is a game and we are abstracting physical needs, so that complexity could easily be sidestepped and disbelief suspended in favor of fun. Again, YMMV and that's why we have different LS mods.

This should especially be the threat on EVA instead of electricity (loosing control on jet-pack could be a great touch by the way). And you should take off the food resource on EVA since they aren't going to eat on a spacewalk and they are certainly going to die of oxygen depletion before. Not taking this resource for EVA will further unbalance the resources and will make it more interesting to replenish them for example with resource rendezvous.

Apollo astronauts had food with them in EVA, IIRC, so it's not out of the question, but it wouldn't matter anyway because a stock TACLS EVA only lasts for 12 hours, so there is literally no way a Kerbal could die of food deprivation before being killed by Oxygen or Electricity deprivation.

All These elements should also be considered with the waste that shouldn't be synchronized to the resources, they should be created in smaller amounts than the used resources.

Conservation of mass has to be dealt with, so waste is produced at the same mass rate as resources are consumed.

Since the Kerbals don't die from it and changing resource consumption doesn't help, I'm assuming there must be a missing link in the code since it isn't considered in game as a resource needed for Kerbal survival.

Do you have another resource file somewhere that defines Oxygen?

[Aknar]

My bad, Sorry for the confusion. And the oxygen problem was a terrible mix-up. I got confused between life-support mods, the fact that oxygen isn't used on kerbin, the values that don't change on small time lapses...

I understand the will to have readable and reliable information for resupply missions but I don't make bases so I see little use for this, only a space-station that is quick to reach and isn't terribly concerned by this.

I find it a shame that you get all warnings at once, and that you only deal with a welcome basket of resource that are all depleting at the same time. If this doesn't bother anyone else, I'll go play some more with the .cfg files on my own.