[1.0.5] TAC Life Support v0.11.2.1 [12Dec]

[DeMatt]

After attempting to launch a fleet of single-man landers to Minmus, and realizing TACLS was in the process of killing all but the visible pod due to lack of electricity... I wanted to ask: does TACLS account for any electricity generation? Or am I going to have to pile on huge amounts of batteries if I want to have multiple missions running simultaneously?

I haven't tried using the recyclers, so I don't know if those will be accounted for out-of-focus, either...

The big question is: what should happen if a Kerbal is over-"stressed" or runs out of "comfort"? Should the Kerbal die? Should the vessel become uncontrollable? Should the Kerbal kill a different Kerbal? Should the Kerbal eat all the snacks? Should a delay be added to control inputs? Make "maneuvering/functioning" be "less reliable"?

I would like to add a "living space" metric, and require you to build rockets with enough space when launching long missions, but the issue remains: what are the consequences?

I suppose it depends on how "serious" you want TAC Life Support to be. Is "food" actually a well-balanced, three square meals a day sort of thing, or is it "adequate amounts of snackage"?

Following along the idea of "eat all the snacks":

1. Kerbals have a full bar of "comfort"-resource when they launch from KSC.
   
2. Pods contain no comfort; instead, they produce it. Initially, they produce comfort at a rate equal to a full crew's consumption.
   
3. Lander-cans reduce their comfort production by half after five days of flight; cupolas, Hitchhikers, and Science Labs after twenty; all other pods after ten. This occurs only once.
   
4. Comfort acts like monopropellant in that Kerbals can grab it from anywhere on their ship.
   
5. A Kerbal with a half-empty comfort bar eats double the food (oh noes, the snack supply's disappearing!), but eats only 75% as much comfort. A Kerbal with a fully empty comfort bar eats triple the food.
   
6. EVA-ed Kerbals ignore the comfort resource, neither eating it nor having their food consumption impacted.

How's that sound?

Edited January 10, 2014 by DeMatt

[Kenken244]

I would rather see "stress" expanded into a sort of general "health" meter. that could include comfort, but also things like artificial gravity modules and communication with kerbin (if you are using remote tech). It would also necessitate occasional crew transfers. Unhealthy crew could consume more resources and possibly produce less science, and instead of dying after being out of resources for a certain amount of time, crew would instead drain health until they die. I think this is a fairly flexible, yet simple abstraction that could easily be expanded with support for other mods, such as radiation from ksp interstellar.

[TaranisElsu]

After attempting to launch a fleet of single-man landers to Minmus, and realizing TACLS was in the process of killing all but the visible pod due to lack of electricity... I wanted to ask: does TACLS account for any electricity generation? Or am I going to have to pile on huge amounts of batteries if I want to have multiple missions running simultaneously?

I haven't tried using the recyclers, so I don't know if those will be accounted for out-of-focus, either...

The mod does not account for electricity generation, nor does it calculate electricity consumption for vessels that are not loaded (i.e. farther than 2.4 km away). If the vessel is loaded, then the game should be calculating electricity generation. Does that conflict with your experience? Did you try watching the Life Support Monitoring window?

I suppose it depends on how "serious" you want TAC Life Support to be. Is "food" actually a well-balanced, three square meals a day sort of thing, or is it "adequate amounts of snackage"?

Following along the idea of "eat all the snacks":

1. Kerbals have a full bar of "comfort"-resource when they launch from KSC.
   
2. Pods contain no comfort; instead, they produce it. Initially, they produce comfort at a rate equal to a full crew's consumption.
   
3. Lander-cans reduce their comfort production by half after five days of flight; cupolas, Hitchhikers, and Science Labs after twenty; all other pods after ten. This occurs only once.
   
4. Comfort acts like monopropellant in that Kerbals can grab it from anywhere on their ship.
   
5. A Kerbal with a half-empty comfort bar eats double the food (oh noes, the snack supply's disappearing!), but eats only 75% as much comfort. A Kerbal with a fully empty comfort bar eats triple the food.
   
6. EVA-ed Kerbals ignore the comfort resource, neither eating it nor having their food consumption impacted.

How's that sound?

Thanks for the input!

[DerekL1963]

As a counterpoint, perhaps just a simple implementation [of a stress/sanity system] is better than nothing.

It's not at all clear that making something more complicated is better than not making it more complicated. Doubly so since what stresses out/makes a Kerbal insane and to what level veers so sharply into opinion as opposed to science & facts.

[DeMatt]

The mod does not account for electricity generation, nor does it calculate electricity consumption for vessels that are not loaded (i.e. farther than 2.4 km away). If the vessel is loaded, then the game should be calculating electricity generation. Does that conflict with your experience? Did you try watching the Life Support Monitoring window?

...okay, I just set up my scenario again (low-storage/high-generation vessel in orbit, switch to flag and time-warp), and I think I just panicked on seeing the electricity countdown in the LSM window go two days' negative, and then wasn't immediately able to switch back to the vessels in question. My test, after reading your post, showed that I was quite capable of switching back to the vessel, and its electricity promptly reset itself to full.

Would it be possible to adjust that countdown? The idea I had was, when switching away from the vessel, to add up the major electricity-generating parts (PB-NUK fully, OX-STAT * 40% (50% correct aim * 80% not eclipsed), other solar panels * 60% (75% correct aim * 80% not eclipsed)) and adjust the countdown rate by comparing this quick-estimate supply versus the Kerbals' known demand.

[Matrix Aran]

From your description, my first thought is that it is turned off. Please double check the settings window in the Space Center scene to make sure that it is enabled. Also, does the icon show in the Flight scene? And are you using the Toolbar mod? Bring up the Life Support Monitoring window by clicking the icon. Is the current vessel listed after launching?

And please, please, please upload your entire log file somewhere that I can look at it. Sometimes the problem occurs earlier than where the symptom shows up and in the case of mod conflicts, may not be near any of the logging for my mod.

In your case, please also upload your persistent.sfs file so that I can double check the settings that are saved there.

Also, which OS are you using? Windows/OSX/Linux?

For you also: please, please, please upload your entire log file somewhere that I can look at it. Sometimes the problem occurs earlier than where the symptom shows up and in the case of mod conflicts, may not be near any of the logging for my mod.

The errors you included are a known problem. The game is throwing an exception, but it still seems to be working anyway ...

Questions:

• Are you seeing the life support icon in the flight scene? I notice that you are not using the toolbar mod, so it should just be an individual button somewhere along the screen edge.
  
• Did you launch the vessel? The mod does not consume any resources until after launch so that you can timewarp to your launch window without worrying about the crew.
  
• Bring up the Life Support Monitoring window by clicking the icon. Is the current vessel listed (after launching)?
  
• Which OS are you using? Windows/OSX/Linux? Your log file is different from mine, so I assume you are not using Windows.
  

Well this is quite strange and awkward. I downloaded and installed the mod today to get you an up to date persistent file, loaded up the game and its now working with all my career and the mod is now working completely. I'm rather dumbfounded as to why, the only thing I can think that I've changed in the last few days, other than removing the mod was removing RemoteTech (which I had already done while TAC LifeSupport was already installed), and adding in KAS, a new version of Kethane, and a few other things.

I can't even begin to think where the conflict may have been, and in any case, I'd rather not break something that's now working. As I can't really find any explanation, I can only apologize for having caused a fuss in the first place and taking up your time with a phantom problem.

Now I have to find some way to get an emergency supply of snacks to my manned mun rover in less than a day. Does FedEx still have international express delivery?

[TaranisElsu]

Now I have to find some way to get an emergency supply of snacks to my manned mun rover in less than a day. Does FedEx still have international express delivery?

The good news is that hunger does not kill right away, so I think you have time. Good luck!

[Whitecold]

I suppose it depends on how "serious" you want TAC Life Support to be. Is "food" actually a well-balanced, three square meals a day sort of thing, or is it "adequate amounts of snackage"?

Following along the idea of "eat all the snacks":

1. Kerbals have a full bar of "comfort"-resource when they launch from KSC.
   
2. Pods contain no comfort; instead, they produce it. Initially, they produce comfort at a rate equal to a full crew's consumption.
   
3. Lander-cans reduce their comfort production by half after five days of flight; cupolas, Hitchhikers, and Science Labs after twenty; all other pods after ten. This occurs only once.
   
4. Comfort acts like monopropellant in that Kerbals can grab it from anywhere on their ship.
   
5. A Kerbal with a half-empty comfort bar eats double the food (oh noes, the snack supply's disappearing!), but eats only 75% as much comfort. A Kerbal with a fully empty comfort bar eats triple the food.
   
6. EVA-ed Kerbals ignore the comfort resource, neither eating it nor having their food consumption impacted.

How's that sound?

In my opinion comfort shouldn't depend on the age of the ship, only the mission time of each Kerbal. Comfort isn't really a resource, getting an unhappy Kerbonaut into a really comfy spaceship shouldn't make him instantaneously ecstatic, that should take quite a while. I'd propose a system which includes different factors. Each one drains comfort, or raises it a bit if its fulfilled, making them happy should be harder than getting them to panic in the first place.

There should be caps, especially for raising comfort again, that you need to take care of almost all of them.

Different factors that would work well:

1. Total mission time, should begin after a week or so to make long time missions harder
   
2. Com connection, would be really nice in connection with remote tech, else just checking if an antenna is present.
   
3. Living space, each slot gets a cozy value. To make it simple, add all the values together and divide by numbers of Kerbals present. Should have a Cap
   
4. Starts, Landings etc. should be stressing, maybe dependent on stupidity.
   
5. Emergencies like running out of oxygen, food, water, electricity should be really stressing.
   
6. Loneliness should drain comfort, they get happier in a group, up to a limit.
   

For punishment a reaction delay would be nice, maybe worse science results (sloppiness) if that is possible. Increased food consumption is a bit easy to counter, you can pack quite a bit of snacks instead of a comfy hitchhiker.

[Javster]

I dislike the electricity requirement. A lack of electricity should disable CO2 --> O2 converters, shortening life time.

[Krevsin]

In my opinion comfort shouldn't depend on the age of the ship, only the mission time of each Kerbal. Comfort isn't really a resource, getting an unhappy Kerbonaut into a really comfy spaceship shouldn't make him instantaneously ecstatic, that should take quite a while. I'd propose a system which includes different factors. Each one drains comfort, or raises it a bit if its fulfilled, making them happy should be harder than getting them to panic in the first place.

There should be caps, especially for raising comfort again, that you need to take care of almost all of them.

Different factors that would work well:

1. Total mission time, should begin after a week or so to make long time missions harder
   
2. Com connection, would be really nice in connection with remote tech, else just checking if an antenna is present.
   
3. Living space, each slot gets a cozy value. To make it simple, add all the values together and divide by numbers of Kerbals present. Should have a Cap
   
4. Starts, Landings etc. should be stressing, maybe dependent on stupidity.
   
5. Emergencies like running out of oxygen, food, water, electricity should be really stressing.
   
6. Loneliness should drain comfort, they get happier in a group, up to a limit.
   

For punishment a reaction delay would be nice, maybe worse science results (sloppiness) if that is possible. Increased food consumption is a bit easy to counter, you can pack quite a bit of snacks instead of a comfy hitchhiker.

I'd personally like to see how Stupidity and Courage affect the "stress" resource. If I recall correctly, there was an interesting system in the works. Here, I'll give you all a link:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/63655-How-would-you-go-about-designing-a-Living-Space-heuristic

I dislike the electricity requirement. A lack of electricity should disable CO2 --> O2 converters, shortening life time.

The electricity is used to maintain the ship temperature. Otherwise, Kerbals inside would freeze while on the dark side of the planet.

[djnekkid]

Hey TaranisElsu!

I'm currently planning a set of Duna missions, and I'm wondering if there are a good set of documentation, like a spreadsheet, on how much resourses the different converters convert, and their efficiency and stuffs. I'm trying to look at the .cfg's, but it _seems_ like the 'medium' and 'large' convert at the same rate?

It seems like it takes 8 Co2 (enough to 'convert' the breath of 8 green friends?) and makes 8*0.9 units of o2 and 8*2.218 units of 'waste' per day ... but is that a kerbal day (6hrs) or a Tellus day (24hrs) ?

If there arent enough 'waste' space, does the converter stop, or does it just put the waste out the vent?

[Ballistic Idiot]

I've tried to search the thread but forum searches are well, they're forum searches.

The recyclers and hex cans aren't loading for me, am I missing something.

I'll apologise in advance if my dozen+ searches missed some discussion.

Edit: Fixed, my new compression utility was deleting the directory structure in the zip, I went back to my old one.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Ballistic Idiot

[tygoo7]

Why is the window in flight mode not showing up? All the other windows are but when I go to launch nothing is showing. Heres a screenshot.

[TaranisElsu]

Why is the window in flight mode not showing up? All the other windows are but when I go to launch nothing is showing. Heres a screenshot.

http://i.imgur.com/deEHcNU.jpg

I'm not sure that I understand your question. The window is there in the middle of the screen. It is empty because you have not launched your rocket yet. It needs to leave the pad before the mod starts tracking it so that you can time warp to your launch window without worrying about your crew. Does that answer your question?

[tygoo7]

I'm not sure that I understand your question. The window is there in the middle of the screen. It is empty because you have not launched your rocket yet. It needs to leave the pad before the mod starts tracking it so that you can time warp to your launch window without worrying about your crew. Does that answer your question?

ohhhhhhhhhh I see. Thanks

[TaranisElsu]

ohhhhhhhhhh I see. Thanks

You're welcome

I dislike the electricity requirement. A lack of electricity should disable CO2 --> O2 converters, shortening life time.

The electricity requirement is abstracting the need for temperature control, air circulation, humidity removal, and air filtration in addition to CO2 scrubbers to remove the CO2 from the air. Converting the CO2 back into usable O2 is an additional step.

Hey TaranisElsu!

I'm currently planning a set of Duna missions, and I'm wondering if there are a good set of documentation, like a spreadsheet, on how much resourses the different converters convert, and their efficiency and stuffs. I'm trying to look at the .cfg's, but it _seems_ like the 'medium' and 'large' convert at the same rate?

It seems like it takes 8 Co2 (enough to 'convert' the breath of 8 green friends?) and makes 8*0.9 units of o2 and 8*2.218 units of 'waste' per day ... but is that a kerbal day (6hrs) or a Tellus day (24hrs) ?

If there arent enough 'waste' space, does the converter stop, or does it just put the waste out the vent?

Right now, the converters convert enough resources to keep up with 8 Kerbals. They also operate at 90% efficiency. The 90% efficiency means that you can effectively multiple the time left for oxygen and water by 10x.

The math behind that is: I forget what the sequence is called, but you start with:

x^0 + x^1 + x^2 + x^3 + x^4 + ...

which is equivalent to 1/(1-x). Then substitute the efficiency, 90% or 0.9, for x. So 1/(1-0.9) = 1/0.1 = 10. Also look at

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28x%5E0+%2B+x%5E1+%2B+x%5E2+%2B+x%5E3+%2B+x%5E4+%2B+...%29+for+x+%3D+0.9

The converters will keep running when the Waste storage fills up, but they will stop if the Oxygen or Water ("good" resource) storage fills up.

Edited January 13, 2014 by TaranisElsu
missed a question

[diomedea]

The big question is: what should happen if a Kerbal is over-"stressed" or runs out of "comfort"? Should the Kerbal die? Should the vessel become uncontrollable? Should the Kerbal kill a different Kerbal? Should the Kerbal eat all the snacks? Should a delay be added to control inputs? Make "maneuvering/functioning" be "less reliable"?

While you or others may want to implement any other feature, stress for me is relevant in relation to Life Support because a stressed kerbal consumes more oxygen (and of course produces CO2 in the same amount). The most important factor for "stress" will be, for me, to have it proportional to the perceived G (acceleration), with a minimum set to 1. Yes, that makes life a lot less comfortable while living on a massive planet, but also would have effects while in flight.

[djnekkid]

Right now, the converters convert enough resources to keep up with 8 Kerbals. They also operate at 90% efficiency. The 90% efficiency means that you can effectively multiple the time left for oxygen and water by 10x.

The math behind that is: I forget what the sequence is called, but you start with:

x^0 + x^1 + x^2 + x^3 + x^4 + ...

which is equivalent to 1/(1-x). Then substitute the efficiency, 90% or 0.9, for x. So 1/(1-0.9) = 1/0.1 = 10. Also look at

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28x%5E0+%2B+x%5E1+%2B+x%5E2+%2B+x%5E3+%2B+x%5E4+%2B+...%29+for+x+%3D+0.9

The converters will keep running when the Waste storage fills up, but they will stop if the Oxygen or Water ("good" resource) storage fills up.

Then it seemed like my .cfg-readings were correct

And yes, it seems like you effectivly can multiply it by 9 or 10... Atleast thats what my planner spreadsheet is telling me

After 37 cycles, my 32 units of o2/water gives me a total of 310 units.

Too bad they cant recycle food, but that would be kind of ****ty, wound'nt it ?

[Ralathon]

Too bad they cant recycle food, but that would be kind of ****ty, wound'nt it ?

Yea, wouldn't want to eat recycled waste...

Anyway, recyclers are still awesome. Instead of a life support package every month you can send a food package every 3 months and a oxygen + water package every 10 months. Cut's a lot of slack on base resupplies.

[Whitecold]

Yea, wouldn't want to eat recycled waste...

Anyway, recyclers are still awesome. Instead of a life support package every month you can send a food package every 3 months and a oxygen + water package every 10 months. Cut's a lot of slack on base resupplies.

We need a greenhouse, needing sunlight, consuming water and CO2, producing food, O2 and wastewater. That would make near infinite missions, colonies possible.

[Patupi]

On the stress issue I think that the Courage and Stupidity stats could affect stress/comfort in different ways. Courage would reduce the stress build up in short term instances. For instance during landings/take-offs. These would introduce less stress for a courageous Kerbal than for others. Stupidity would be the other way around... er, if it wasn't a reverse stat. Well, the more intelligent you were the better you'd deal with the long term build up of stress from being cooped up in... you know? I think it might work the other way around. Being too stupid to know there was a problem. If you're smart enough you start to consider all the things going wrong and get more worried over time. Might be a good counter. In KSPI there is already a point to having low stupidity Kerbals. If stress is done this way there'd be a point to having HIGH Stupidity Kerbals. They'd last longer on long duration flights!

[Sigma52]

Whitecold

take a look at the biomass + science thread. It does exactly as you describe, although its actually still pretty difficult with it, as if you want to make each resource you'll end up having a huge station.

[Whitecold]

Whitecold

take a look at the biomass + science thread. It does exactly as you describe, although its actually still pretty difficult with it, as if you want to make each resource you'll end up having a huge station.

Thanks a lot, full self sufficiency shouldn't be easy anyway, I need excused for my outsized installations anyway, it's lot more fun if they do something instead of just empty modules for show.

[rulib]

Progress update on my parts pack:

http://i.imgur.com/nTJbzIbl.jpg

This is looking amazing, any word on a release?

[somnambulist]

This is looking amazing, any word on a release?

Sorry -- I was knocked-out with the flu for a couple days and have been super busy at work. So... Soon