[1.0.5] TAC Life Support v0.11.2.1 [12Dec]

[Lightwarrior]

I was thinking about getting this mod, but I was wondering something. Is it possible to have some can or something make food? I want to make a few bases on ground and in space, and it would suck to have to send food every few min.

Also, is there a chart or something showing how long a kerbal can last per x amount of food,water, etc ?

Everething is simple: 1 food/water/oxygen = 1 kerbal for 1 day.

As for food... it is not as heavy/large, you can easily send supply for few decades, which will be enough without any production.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Lightwarrior

[crua9]

Everething is simple: 1 food/water/oxygen = 1 kerbal for 1 day.

Thanks

you can easily send supply for few decades, which will be enough without any production.

But can we produce food or do we have to deliver it? It's kinda unrealistic to have something like a base or spaceport not producing food.

BTW, thanks for the quick reply

[TomatoSoup]

My main source of reluctance in adopting this mod is the lack of polish. Looking at IonCross Crew Support it just feels better with the blue colored Oxygen tanks and the well-done retextures of the RCS tanks for Oxygen processing. I like that this mod also supports food and water, but right now it seems to me like they're just duplicates of Oxygen. Because of the lack of ways to convert resources that really feel like they matter (I understand that there are resource converters but they're terribly bland) it feels so much better to just use one resource!

Perhaps, if I may suggest a few additions to make it more complicated but also crisper? If these things were implemented with the right level of quality (that is to say, the author of this mod is a good programmer, not a modeler or texturer) then I would jump ship from IonCross in a heartbeat.

Some way to harvest Oxygen or Carbon Dioxide from the atmospheres of applicable planets?

Massive, heavy, greenhouse parts that require constant sunlight or power but will produce food from waste?

The ability to harvest water from the poles of the Mun, Minmus, Duna, and from the oceans of Kerbin, Laythe, and Eve?

My basic point/argument/complaint is that there's a variety of resources but no variety in generation/replenishment. It feels clunky and redundant. This mod would be largely equivalent with just two resources: Consumables and Waste. Creating logistical complexity would be very interesting and rewarding to players who create a totally self-sufficient supply chain.

[Lightwarrior]

..

But can we produce food or do we have to deliver it? It's kinda unrealistic to have something like a base or spaceport not producing food.

...

Food cannot be produced right now.

You still can use this, but it seems to be severely overpowered.

p.s. one problem with production is that you will only need to place few additional parts on the ship and you will not have to worry about supplies. Things seem to be good enough right now, you have to carry some supplies and plan their consumption, but they are not too big/heavy so you still can travel to other planets or build bases.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Lightwarrior

[jrandom]

one problem with production is that you will only need to place few additional parts on the ship and you will not have to worry about supplies.

To balance this out, the parts should be large, power-hungry, heavy, and slow.

[Lightwarrior]

To balance this out, the parts should be large, power-hungry, heavy, and slow.

Yes, sure. But technically you will still be able to integrate it into your "transfer stage", yes it will be huge, but it will work.

I use interstellar, for example, and even something like 100T-200T will not stop me from doing this

And now TAC life support works really good with Interstellar, making it impossible to abuse timewarp, which makes resource production in Interstellar much more fun.

One possible way is to make parts which only work in specific environment (some planets).

Edited December 27, 2013 by Lightwarrior

[Hailgod]

How much effective water can be used with 1 unit of water assuming you have a water purifier? I want to make a ship that has the bare minimum amount of water and oxygen.

[Lightwarrior]

You will only need to have 10% of requred supply.

[StarkRG]

Assuming the same (inefficient) packaging that we use here on Earth, then approximately 75% of the waste mass will be food packaging (the wiki page showed ~65% to 90% waste was food packaging on various missions). Not sure how that would play into the mod, however. It might be easier to just gloss over that part.

Is kerbal poo considered waste or waste water? It's definitely got a lot of water in it (to the point that on extended space missions you'd want to recover most of the water before using it for fertilizer), but I think it's generally considered solid waste. I'm almost certain ISS doesn't dump anything overboard so all the poo would have to return in one of the non-reusable vehicles like the Cygnus. In this case somewhere around 75% of the food becomes waste (assuming the kerbals don't gain or lose weight, the remainder is used as energy which eventually becomes heat, which might be a nice tie-in to KSP Interstellar), add the packaging and you're probably pushing 90%. Or perhaps kerbals don't have separate urinary and intestinal tracts and just have a cloaca like a bird, reptile, or monotreme (this would also suggest kerbals lay and hatch from eggs).

[Pingonaut]

I really want to use this mod, but I don't like the models for the parts. Are there other options for them?

[drtedastro]

H'mmmm, make your own?

[Voidi]

I make something for the Container-only Parts; took the textures from Ioncross Crewsupport and merge it with configuration of TAC

https://github.com/Voidi/Life-Support-Containers

I think i will update this and add the recycler Parts and nicer Textures for Radialtanks.

I'm not sure about the license, because Ioncross also uses textures from user zzz

Edited December 27, 2013 by Voidi
added preview picture

[somnambulist]

I think i will update this and add the recycler Parts and nicer Textures for Radialtanks.

The radial tank retextures are mine. Feel free to include them.

[crua9]

I make something for the Container-only Parts; took the textures from Ioncross Crewsupport and merge it with configuration of TAC

https://github.com/Voidi/Life-Support-Containers

I think i will update this and add the recycler Parts and nicer Textures for Radialtanks.

I'm not sure about the license, because Ioncross also uses textures from user zzz

Please post pics

[crua9]

Someone needs to make a garden. Like it would be cool to have a garden that will take in water, waste, and co2. Then it gave out o2 and food (possible waste). Since the garden doesn't really give back any water, the trade off is water for food. Also, there will be a trade off on the waste. Since the garden can make waste, you need to find a way to dump it (RCS or burning it (which will make co2)).

If someone makes this, then it would be cool if someone makes a thing that digs for water.

[TaranisElsu]

I really want to use this mod, but I don't like the models for the parts. Are there other options for them?

The OP has several links to retextures and other parts made by other people.

I make something for the Container-only Parts; took the textures from Ioncross Crewsupport and merge it with configuration of TAC

https://raw.github.com/Voidi/Life-Support-Containers/master/preview.png

https://github.com/Voidi/Life-Support-Containers

I think i will update this and add the recycler Parts and nicer Textures for Radialtanks.

I'm not sure about the license, because Ioncross also uses textures from user zzz

Please figure out the licensing before posting anything publicly. Some people don't want you redistributing their work, others want you to ask permission first. In any case, you need to abide by their license since it is their work and not yours.

[panarchist]

My main source of reluctance in adopting this mod is the lack of polish. Looking at IonCross Crew Support it just feels better with the blue colored Oxygen tanks and the well-done retextures of the RCS tanks for Oxygen processing. I like that this mod also supports food and water, but right now it seems to me like they're just duplicates of Oxygen. Because of the lack of ways to convert resources that really feel like they matter (I understand that there are resource converters but they're terribly bland) it feels so much better to just use one resource!

Lack of polish? TaranisElsu's mod is being more frequently (and more recently) updated and developed. It's the only LS mod which keeps track of resources in vessels on rails. (non-active vessels outside of game physics range) It's one of two? mods using food and water - paired with the Biomass mod, you can grow food in orbital greenhouses. To me, the Ioncross mod feels bland, because the parts are simply retextured stock parts. There are no less than 4 retextures for this mod currently. I mean, it's not ZZZ quality like KSP Interstellar, but this mod is starting to attract the attention of a number of artists now that it's seeing more exposure. TAC Life Support, IMO is the technically superior mod - YMMV of course.

Perhaps, if I may suggest a few additions to make it more complicated but also crisper? If these things were implemented with the right level of quality (that is to say, the author of this mod is a good programmer, not a modeler or texturer) then I would jump ship from IonCross in a heartbeat.

I'm a bit confused. First you say it's too complicated ("why more than one resource?") and now you say it should be more complicated? How do you mean? Personally, I'd like to see him add a heat mechanic, and ZZZ's awesome radiators (which are open licensed). Heat is the only part of ECLSS (the actual system, not the mod of the same name) not currently being modeled by TAC Life Support.

Some way to harvest Oxygen or Carbon Dioxide from the atmospheres of applicable planets?

Massive, heavy, greenhouse parts that require constant sunlight or power but will produce food from waste?

The ability to harvest water from the poles of the Mun, Minmus, Duna, and from the oceans of Kerbin, Laythe, and Eve?

KSP Interstellar does a couple of those, and Biomass does the second one. TaranisElsu has stated previously in this thread the intent to add a greenhouse.

My basic point/argument/complaint is that there's a variety of resources but no variety in generation/replenishment. It feels clunky and redundant. This mod would be largely equivalent with just two resources: Consumables and Waste. Creating logistical complexity would be very interesting and rewarding to players who create a totally self-sufficient supply chain.

It's feels clunky and redundant to you. Please recognize that the entire community doesn't share that view. Because TaranisElsu recently chose to modifly TAC LS to use resource names which have been settled on in the community, this mod easily integrates with a few others to allow a lot of variation and functionality. There's always a need to balance the number of resources used - part of the reason I think Squad is rethinking resources is because the tree they posted a pic for has too many resources. (I think KSP Interstellar might be in danger of heading that route) I think that the basic resources of Food, Water, Oxygen, Waste, CO2, and Wastewater are good ones. I'd like to see Heat and Nitrogen added, and I'd like to see a heat mechanic and an outgassing mechanic - but those are minor complaints/suggestions for what I think is the best of the LS mods for KSP.

Edited December 27, 2013 by panarchist
clarified use of the term "ECLSS" to specify the RL system, not the KSP mod

[TomatoSoup]

It's feels clunky and redundant to you. Please recognize that the entire community doesn't share that view.

I totally recognize that. But I figure the odds that literally I'm the only one who feels this way are low. My feature requests have been stated earlier in the thread, I was just offering what I think is a good why for them.

Lack of polish? TaranisElsu's mod is being more frequently (and more recently) updated and developed.

...

TAC Life Support, IMO is the technically superior mod

Again, I agree that it's being updated and developed way better than any other Resource mod right now. And it's the least buggy. That's why I've been looking at it. I meant more of a certain something feel for it. The resources don't feel unique, just the same resource you have to watch in triplicate. Which is my next point.

I'm a bit confused. First you say it's too complicated ("why more than one resource?") and now you say it should be more complicated? How do you mean?

In its present form, all three resources come from the Kerbin. You can convert between them, sure, but they all come from the space center on Kerbin. The supply chain is identical and the resources are redundant. But if there were different sources and different operations you could do on each resource, then there would be a point to having multiple resources. But you're right, it's a WIP (I mean, look at the textures!) and there are Greenhouses on the way. That will make a reason to have distinct resources. That's the kind of complexity that I ask for.

I mean, another way is how older versions of KSP just had LiquidFuel for rockets, no oxidizer. Adding oxidizer would have been realistic, sure, but useless because its just an additional resource used in identical measures! You'll never run out of one and not the other, so why have both? But then Squad added Jet Engines and it made sense to split the resource into LiquidFuel and Oxidizer. That's my current feeling for having a variety of resources.

I guess in general what I'm saying is that this mod is a great framework with how it has implemented resources. But feature-wise, when it comes to replenishment, conversion, and creation, it's a little bare. And I have some ideas for features that I think would make a great natural addition, like greenhouses, atmospheric harvesting, and so forth.

Also, I glanced at Biomass and Interstellar, and they're both waaay more than I'm looking for. It's nice that they integrate, but they both do way too much for my tastes.

Edited December 27, 2013 by TomatoSoup

[panarchist]

Re:

ElectricityConsumptionRate = 1200

BaseElectricityConsumptionRate = 2400

(granted, this was almost 2 weeks ago, in post #420)

These are EC/day (1 EC/day = 11.57 mW under the usual assumption that 1 EC = 1 kJ). This means that the base consumption of a pod is 13.8 W, and that the additional consumption per kerbal is 27.7 W.

That seems pretty off. The RL Mercury capsule had 13.5KwH in its batteries (48,600 kJ) and drew on average 540W.

The Apollo LM had 7 batteries: 5 in the descent stage with 400AH each (41,760 kJ per battery) plus 2 in the ascent stage with 296AH each (30,900 kJ per battery) - total EC is a usage of about 1,100 watts. The Apollo CM drew about 2kW.

Seems like a good RL rule of thumb is 100W baseline and 500W/person for landers, and 1,000W baseline for capsules with a full-fledged flight computer. (for 1970s tech at least) Kerbals would likely use 1/4-1/2 the resources of a person based on their approximate 1-1.3m height.

Since the Mk.1 pod has an EC of 50, and the Mercury capsule it was modeled after is 48.6 megajoules, it seems that the typical numbers bandied about the modding community are off - an EC of 1 appears to actually be 1MJ, not 1kJ.

Edited December 27, 2013 by panarchist
Can't do maths - corrected numbers

[panarchist]

I guess in general what I'm saying is that this mod is a great framework with how it has implemented resources. But feature-wise, when it comes to replenishment, conversion, and creation, it's a little bare. And I have some ideas for features that I think would make a great natural addition, like greenhouses, atmospheric harvesting, and so forth.

Also, I glanced at Biomass and Interstellar, and they're both waaay more than I'm looking for. It's nice that they integrate, but they both do way too much for my tastes.

As general comments, I agree. Specifically in your comparison to the Ioncross mod, however - it doesn't have those features either. The developer of this mod has stated an intent to add features which use the additional resources, so I'd imagine if you look at it again in the near future, it might have more meaning to you.

Yeah, Interstellar has a lot - not sure I'll use it long-term, and I might remove the warp drive from mine. I get the "overwhelmed" aspect - that's how I feel with B9 Aerospace, which has far more than I actually want to use.

Biomass out of the box has a lot, but if you install the mod and then delete all the parts except the food greenhouse and the Microbiome part, then you have an instant orbital farm which makes use of the CO2 and water in TAC LS, and generates Food for it. Effectively at that point you're self-sustaining, and have a ready means to produce food for visiting ships.

[yeliabmit]

One of the great advantages in KSP is the ability to choose which mods are best for one own playstyle.

ECLSS (apart from some awful FPS drops, mainly due to calculating resource expenditure for every single part of every single vessel) has this "peculiarity" of very big sizes with the resources required; that was debated on the ECLSS thread and somebody already observed how hard could be to use it.

TAC LS has different volumes for its resources, but those match with the resource consumption rates being used as a basis for life support. Those consumption rates have been discussed at length, and I reckon in the end they were found to be correct.

I would not say TAC LS is overpowered; but certainly ECLSS makes for a much more difficult game.

In fact, TAC does reflect my playstyle; I actually find ECLSS (and IonCross) to be a bit limited, and TAC is actually making an effort to integrate with other mods. It's the TAC parts that I have problems with, not the mod's features. I'll probably switch back once a modeller spends some time on the mod.

[mathimat]

Greate mod, but having an issue with 0.8 and ksp 0.23.

When in edit mode and first attaching the Food container (1.25m size) and the alt click on the container and move the mouse the game freeze up. This is happens every time i tries it.

Log:

[LOG 21:59:25.351] editor started

[LOG 21:59:25.662] Untitled Space Craft - Untitled Space Craft

[LOG 21:59:25.951] Tac.TacLifeSupport[FFFD8CD8][61.99]: Constructor

[LOG 21:59:25.954] Tac.TacLifeSupport[FFFD8CD8][61.99]: OnAwake in EDITOR

[LOG 21:59:25.954] Tac.TacLifeSupport[FFFD8CD8][61.99]: Adding EditorController

[LOG 21:59:25.955] Tac.EditorController[FFFD8CD4][61.99]: Awake

[LOG 21:59:25.955] Tac.Icon`1[[Tac.EditorController, TacLifeSupport, Version=0.7.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null]][F53265C0][61.99]: Constructor: icon.png

[malkuth]

You can pretty easy take tanks from other mods and make them work with oxygen of this mod, as long as keep it to yourself and don't take credit for others work.

[TaranisElsu]

Due to the numerous comments and feature suggestions for things that are already planned, I figure that I need to better explain my plans and future direction.

Here is an attempt:

Thunder Aerospace Corporation's Life Support system

Core Features

• Kerbals require resources to survive, whether in a vessel or on EVA: Food, Water, Oxygen, Electricity (for air quality and climate control). They even require resources when their vessel is not active.
  
• Kerbals produce waste resources: CarbonDioxide, Waste, WasteWater.
  
• They will die if they go without resources for too long: 30 days without food, 3 days without water, 2 hours without Oxygen, and 2 hours without Electricity.
  
• Excess waste resources are dumped overboard with no ill effect. You do lose the opportunity to convert them back into usable resources.
  
• Most crewed pods come stocked with resources.
  
• When a Kerbal goes on EVA, he takes some resources with him in the EVA suit, taking from the pod that he was in. He puts back the unused resources when returning from EVA.
  
• The system tries to warn when resources are low and again when resources run out. No guarantees. Be careful using high time warp when resources are low.
  
• Kerbals do require resources when their vessel is not active, and they can die if you leave them alone for too long.
  
• Oxygen is not required while landed on Kerbin or flying below a reasonable altitude on Kerbin. Electricity is not required while landed on Kerbin.
  
• You can enable and disable the mod on a saved-game basis. No need to uninstall/reinstall when switching between saved games.
  
• [Planned feature] Add the option to hibernate Kerbals instead of kill them when resources run out. Will lock control of the vessel until more resources are sent. (Potentially very hard because of interactions with other mods like RemoteTech2)
  
• Most numbers are configurable, so you can customize the consumption rates, time without resources, resource densities, etc to your heart's content.
  

Resource Management

• CarbonDioxide can be recycled back into Oxygen
  
• WasteWater can be recycled back into clean drinking Water
  
• Oxygen can be filtered from the air on Kerbin and Laythe.
  
• [Planned Feature] CarbonDioxide can be filtered from the air on some planets (Kerbin, Laythe, Duna, Eve?).
  
• Water can be split (electrolysed) to produce Oxygen and hydrogen (not used by this mod)
  
• [Coming Soon^TM] A Greenhouse can be used to grow Food and produce Oxygen.
  
• [Planned Feature] Mine ice on various planets and moons and convert it to Water. Will be dependent on the Kethane mod.
  
• [Planned Feature] Mine extra-terrestial soil and extract the Oxygen (like http://science1.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2006/05may_moonrocks/ and see https://www.google.com/search?q=oxygen+from+the+moon). Will be dependent on the Kethane mod.
  
• [Planned Feature] Some way to collect water from planetary oceans. Kerbin's and Laythe's? Any others? I don't think Eve's oceans are water, so not there...
  
• [Planned Feature] Disposable waste containers that you can eject to reduce the vessel's mass.
  

Resource Containers

• [Planned Feature] Much better looking parts.
  
• Numerous others have created parts that work with this mod. Don't like my parts? Others have retextured them to make them look much nicer. Think my parts are boring? Others have created some nice looking parts. Modular Fuel System also works nicely with this.
  

[Planned] Balancing passes on all of the numbers. Numberous times until everything feels right. Thank you to everyone that has given me input. I am reading your suggestions, and I will be refining the numbers.

Now, the way forward:

1. I am currently working on a Greenhouse module, writing the plugin code that will make it function. I want to coordinate with the Biomass people so that it is compatible with their work, albeit simpler. I will need a Greenhouse part since I obviously cannot 3D model yet (I want to learn!).
   
2. I want to add resource gathering next, i.e. integration with the Kethane mod. There will be four main resources that you can collect: air, ice, dirt, and water. Not all of them will be necessary since there is an overlap between what you get from each.
   
3. Balancing pass #1. Make sure parts obey conservation of energy in addition to conservation of mass. And check container volumes.
   

What do you think?

Edited December 27, 2013 by TaranisElsu

[TaranisElsu]

Greate mod, but having an issue with 0.8 and ksp 0.23.

When in edit mode and first attaching the Food container (1.25m size) and the alt click on the container and move the mouse the game freeze up. This is happens every time i tries it.

Log:

Does it happen with any other part? I.e. a larger or smaller food container, or a water container, or a life support container? What other mods do you have installed? Are there no errors in the log?

Those statements are normal, just logging that things were created correctly.

Most of the time, when the game freezes on me the log starts going crazy with tons of stuff logged many, many times per second. Is that happening to you? It might help to open the Debug window (Alt+F2) in game before trying again.

Hope that helps!