[1.0.5] TAC Life Support v0.11.2.1 [12Dec]

[yeliabmit]

Due to the numerous comments and feature suggestions for things that are already planned, I figure that I need to better explain my plans and future direction.

...

What do you think?

Well, I think all of that is excellent. I'm embarrassed by my comments about the parts now...

[panarchist]

Now, the way forward:

1. I am currently working on a Greenhouse module, writing the plugin code that will make it function. I want to coordinate with the Biomass people so that it is compatible with their work, albeit simpler. I will need a Greenhouse part since I obviously cannot 3D model yet (I want to learn!).
   
2. I want to add resource gathering next, i.e. integration with the Kethane mod. There will be four main resources that you can collect: air, ice, dirt, and water. Not all of them will be necessary since there is an overlap between what you get from each.
   
3. Balancing pass #1. Make sure parts obey conservation of energy in addition to conservation of mass.
   

What do you think?

I think it's awesome! I would still love to see optional outgassing, but that's a nitpick. I might go into why I'd like to see it in a future post - basically because it prevents a system from being totally closed-looped (which is realistic).

Biomass uses the Hab/Hub and greenhouse models that ZZZ created - they are all mentioned in this thread:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/43840-Hab-Hub-(and-other-strange-things)

ZZZ has given permission for everyone to use his models as they see fit, which is why you can already see a couple of those items in multiple mods. The greenhouse model is in posts #34 and #36 of that thread. Post #181 in that thread is where ZZZ gives permission to use the mods (quoted below)

I'm not make anything for ksp anymore, just accidentally went in because of new version on horizon. Just to take a look what is happening.

Every single model made/shared by me is this "public domain" thing, even is this not mentioned(I usually did it). I don't know how all this work with models made for not my own projects, I love this people but I didn't made any contracts and everythig is intended to be free to use for everyone. Not because I don't respect copyrights but this is way how I handle my own things.

So you can use this as quote if you need something.

[Guest]

What do you think?

Please, for the love of all that is holy, make this optional (as in: not required):

I want to add resource gathering next, i.e. integration with the Kethane mod.

Otherwise your list looks great. Keep up the excellent work!

[Eadrom]

Those of you using this plugin with KSP Interstellar can benefit from using a small addon I've created. It integrates the TACLS water resource into KSPI's resource system. You can now extract drinkable water using KSPI parts. Using TACLS's water splitter, you can also make oxygen to breathe at those locations as well. This lets you expand life support resupplying operations to Eve, Duna, and Vall in addition to Laythe.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/63798

[Patupi]

[*] [Planned Feature] Some way to collect water from planetary oceans. Kerbin's and Laythe's? Any others? I don't think Eve's oceans are water, so not there...

Kerbin and Laythe would likely have low amounts of CO2, Duna would likely be mostly CO2. If Eve is at all reminiscent of Venus then it too would have a very high CO2 content. (and either Potassium or Iodine... given the air's color) I've heard that Laythe could be described as a Titan analogue, perhaps even what Titan would be like if terraformed. If so it would likely have a very high Nitrogen content... would that be useful? As in fertilizer for plants in a green house? There likely wouldn't be that many places off Kerbin that Nitrogen is easily minable otherwise.

[*]I want to add resource gathering next, i.e. integration with the Kethane mod. There will be four main resources that you can collect: air, ice, dirt, and water. Not all of them will be necessary since there is an overlap between what you get from each.

I'd say 'air, ice, dirt and liquid'. Yeah, as you say, Eve's oceans aren't water, plus I'm pretty sure Laythe's oceans would be high in impurities. Ammonia etc. Supposedly there would be radioactives in Eve's oceans, Blutonium if you're going with Squad's nomenclature. There is always the possibility that there are other 'oceans' around too. Does Vall have underground lakes like Europa? Possible. Not that it matters from game point of view much. You'd still have to mine underground to get at it.

[crua9]

Due to the numerous comments and feature suggestions for things that are already planned, I figure that I need to better explain my plans and future direction.

Water can be split (electrolysed) to produce Oxygen and hydrogen (not used by this mod)

[Coming Soon^TM] A Greenhouse can be used to grow Food and produce Oxygen.

What do you think?

Thanks for listing this. Will there be some offset for greenhouses? (size, takes in more of something than it gives, or whatever)

Also, what mod can I use to produce Oxygen and hydrogen

[TomatoSoup]

Kerbin and Laythe would likely have low amounts of CO2, Duna would likely be mostly CO2. If Eve is at all reminiscent of Venus then it too would have a very high CO2 content. (and either Potassium or Iodine... given the air's color) I've heard that Laythe could be described as a Titan analogue, perhaps even what Titan would be like if terraformed. If so it would likely have a very high Nitrogen content... would that be useful? As in fertilizer for plants in a green house? There likely wouldn't be that many places off Kerbin that Nitrogen is easily minable otherwise.

I'd say 'air, ice, dirt and liquid'. Yeah, as you say, Eve's oceans aren't water, plus I'm pretty sure Laythe's oceans would be high in impurities. Ammonia etc. Supposedly there would be radioactives in Eve's oceans, Blutonium if you're going with Squad's nomenclature. There is always the possibility that there are other 'oceans' around too. Does Vall have underground lakes like Europa? Possible. Not that it matters from game point of view much. You'd still have to mine underground to get at it.

Then clearly the Water Pump part requires extra energy to extract the proportionally lower volume of water from Eve's oceans versus, say, Laythe's. Or perhaps it only offers a rudimentary resource that then needs to be refined.

Now, the way forward:

1. I am currently working on a Greenhouse module, writing the plugin code that will make it function. I want to coordinate with the Biomass people so that it is compatible with their work, albeit simpler. I will need a Greenhouse part since I obviously cannot 3D model yet (I want to learn!).
   
2. I want to add resource gathering next, i.e. integration with the Kethane mod. There will be four main resources that you can collect: air, ice, dirt, and water. Not all of them will be necessary since there is an overlap between what you get from each.
   
3. Balancing pass #1. Make sure parts obey conservation of energy in addition to conservation of mass. And check container volumes.
   

What do you think?

This is exactly what I'm thinking of! I very much appreciate this official word and you have just earned yourself another user!

[Patupi]

If it's possible, you might want to extract other liquids from Eve's oceans, with maybe a small amount of H2O. I think rocket fuel was mentioned at one point. Liquid fuel+water+ 'X' from Eve's oceans? If you can get CO2 from it's air and then turn it into Oxygen... which could then be liquified into Oxidizer, you can refuel rockets at Eve's surface without splitting the small amount of water already there

[jfjohnny5]

Now, the way forward:

1. I am currently working on a Greenhouse module, writing the plugin code that will make it function. I want to coordinate with the Biomass people so that it is compatible with their work, albeit simpler. I will need a Greenhouse part since I obviously cannot 3D model yet (I want to learn!).
   
2. I want to add resource gathering next, i.e. integration with the Kethane mod. There will be four main resources that you can collect: air, ice, dirt, and water. Not all of them will be necessary since there is an overlap between what you get from each.
   
3. Balancing pass #1. Make sure parts obey conservation of energy in addition to conservation of mass. And check container volumes.
   

What do you think?

I think this sounds great! You've got a solid plan with some exciting features. Looking forward to the future. And I think using the Kethane resource overlay (I'm assuming he has an API for this?) is a great way to add content without reinventing the wheel! His overlay and resource gathering mechanics are pretty solid already.

[kiwiak]

Its good coding-wise, but will we ever get decent models?

Maybe someone will create pack with models taken from other other mods...

KSP interstellar, near future propulsion pack, or even ECLSS had neat tanks of various shapes and sizes (i specifically liked interstellar radial water tanks).

Hexcans that this mod uses are ok, but needs retexturing too.

[seanth]

Now, the way forward:

1. I am currently working on a Greenhouse module, writing the plugin code that will make it function. I want to coordinate with the Biomass people so that it is compatible with their work, albeit simpler. I will need a Greenhouse part since I obviously cannot 3D model yet (I want to learn!).
   
2. I want to add resource gathering next, i.e. integration with the Kethane mod. There will be four main resources that you can collect: air, ice, dirt, and water. Not all of them will be necessary since there is an overlap between what you get from each.
   
3. Balancing pass #1. Make sure parts obey conservation of energy in addition to conservation of mass. And check container volumes.
   

Point 1: Why bundle the greenhouse work in with TAC-LS? Why not a TAC-Greenhouse mod that is 100% compatible with TAC-LS? If you went that route then Roboto and you could just work together. Maybe have a gui where the player could choose "easy" or "hard" for how the greenhouse worked. IMHO BioMass has some good models, but needs a coder and more testing to balance rates. Your coding, Roboto's models and all the eager testers here would whip a TAC-BioMass mod into shape pretty quickly.

Point 2: I submitted an enhancement request for atmospheric "mining" to kethane. We'll see if it gets picked up.

[Lucien]

TaranisElsu, I'd just like to say that i love your mod and like the way you've begun integrating it with other mods. Really the only problem i have is with how the parts look, but otherwise they work great. Keep the awesomeness coming.

[TomatoSoup]

More information please:

1. Are there any errors in the debug window or the log file? Would you upload the log file to somewhere that I can look at it? Like dropbox or pastebin? You can find the log file at {KSP}/KSP_Data/output_log.txt.
   
2. What mods do you have installed?
   
3. What do you mean "immediately"? They should live for 2 hours after oxygen runs out. Are they really dying instantly? Have you changed any of the settings?
   
4. Can you recreate it reliably? Or did it only happen once? Or with only one ship? What steps can I do to recreate the problem?
   

It really sounds like you have a conflict between some of the mods that you have installed. Try uninstalling some (temporarily move them out of the GameData folder) and see if the issue persists.

I'm having the same issue. Here's a pastebin of the KSP.log file at a point that seems particularly relevant

http://pastebin.com/FDvWdBpj

[JeffreyCor]

I love your future plans! I am using the Biomass Spaceport (simpler) version for food and oxygen currently on my space station and moon base. Been trying to find a good way to 'mine' water so I can make a colony self sustaining for life support

[seanth]

Is there a way to toggle whether oxygen is consumed by kerbils while on the launch pad? I'm interested in testing things groundside without having to launch into orbit.

[TaranisElsu]

I'm having the same issue. Here's a pastebin of the KSP.log file at a point that seems particularly relevant

http://pastebin.com/FDvWdBpj

tabaal2's problem was that he/she had BobCat's American pack installed, which comes bundled with asmi's ECLSS life support mod. BobCat's Soviet pack does the same thing. If you have either of them installed, then you can delete the ECLSS.dll file to disable asmi's life support without breaking anything. It is really bad to have two life support mods installed at the same time. Unfortunately, BobCat does not explicitly state anywhere that I have seen that his mods include asmi's life support.

The errors in your log file are known, and do not seem to be causing any issues. I will be cleaning that up soon. I wish that you would just post the whole file. And include a list of installed mods.

Is there a way to toggle whether oxygen is consumed by kerbils while on the launch pad? I'm interested in testing things groundside without having to launch into orbit.

There is not, but you can add "isTweakable = true" to the rest of the resources in the TacResources.cfg file. Then you can change the amount of the resource in the editor, and launch with a full container of CO₂ or whatever you need. I am doing that for the next release.

Point 1: Why bundle the greenhouse work in with TAC-LS? Why not a TAC-Greenhouse mod that is 100% compatible with TAC-LS? If you went that route then Roboto and you could just work together. Maybe have a gui where the player could choose "easy" or "hard" for how the greenhouse worked. IMHO BioMass has some good models, but needs a coder and more testing to balance rates. Your coding, Roboto's models and all the eager testers here would whip a TAC-BioMass mod into shape pretty quickly.

I want to bundle a greenhouse because I want this mod to be a balanced whole by itself. I want it to work well with other things too, but I feel that it is important that it stands on its own.

Please, for the love of all that is holy, make this optional (as in: not required):

Otherwise your list looks great. Keep up the excellent work!

Everything not listed under "Core Features" is optional. You can swap out the parts for other parts, and you can choose whether you want to use any of the recyclers or resource gathering parts.

[TomatoSoup]

The errors in your log file are known, and do not seem to be causing any issues. I will be cleaning that up soon. I wish that you would just post the whole file. And include a list of installed mods.

Quite sorry about that! I discovered the root of the problem was installing the mod with a save file that had previously used a different life support mod. I figured something was up once I saw that the life support button had disappeared from the toolbar in every scene.

[Pingonaut]

The OP has several links to retextures and other parts made by other people.

Ah, thanks. Sorry for not noticing!

[S4qFBxkFFg]

Ok... I couldn't help myself. I kept thinking about the feedback that the water icon looked like a flame, and I had to adjust it. So as long as I was changing that, I decided to adjust the inline containers to look like the others I had done. Sorry regex, I hope you don't mind me tweaking your work. You can tell storage apart from converters by the middle band - dark with a color accent for storage. Light for converter.

So once I was done with that I realized that I wasn't super happy with the colors. I mean Kerbals are very green. It stands to reason that might be a result of eating a lot of green food. So I changed the color for the "Food" resource across the board. There are a few other details here and there. Check the back of the inline modules.

Download: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22466/TAC_Hex_and_Converter_Textures.zip

In the end it's a simple iconographic style; which I'm a fan of. I hope you like it. And Taranis, provided regex is cool with it, I'm fine with you packaging these textures up as part of the mod if you'd like.

Updated screenshot:

http://i.imgur.com/QxYDwrz.jpg

I'm liking these textures - one minor issue though; on the top and bottom of the inline parts, the "hatches" scale with the size of the parts, rather than remaining one size.

Here's a picture of the hitchhiker IVA to give an example of what I'm talking about http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/File:Hitchhiker_interior_dev.png , seen at the top and bottom of the compartment.

It's not really relevant at the stage the game is at at the moment, but I always had the idea that these were meant to represent internal hatches for kerbals to move through, and should therefore be the same size on every part large enough to have them. Based on what the stock inline parts look like, it might make sense for it to only appear on the 2.5m parts, like so: http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/File:Z-4K.png

As I said, minor issue - your work is better than anything I could do.

Edited December 31, 2013 by S4qFBxkFFg
rewording

[Guest]

Everything not listed under "Core Features" is optional. You can swap out the parts for other parts, and you can choose whether you want to use any of the recyclers or resource gathering parts.

After I wrote that I realized that I could just yank out the parts and they wouldn't look for Kethane stuff, so, sorry... I was mainly worried about the mod looking for Kethane and not finding it, and then not being able to use it, sounds like that's not in your plans.

[TaranisElsu]

After I wrote that I realized that I could just yank out the parts and they wouldn't look for Kethane stuff, so, sorry... I was mainly worried about the mod looking for Kethane and not finding it, and then not being able to use it, sounds like that's not in your plans.

That was something that I had to be careful about. I created a second DLL that interacts with Kethane so that the core DLL does not have that dependency. You will have to delete that second DLL if you do not have Kethane installed or the game will not load.

[somnambulist]

I decided to retexture some stock parts for use as TAC resource containers. These are very much WIP so no downloads, but here's a screenshot of the progress so far:

The containers hold 30 and 240 units but I might make one-size larger if the models/textures hold. The shielded solar panel holds 2 of each resource, intended for early career-mode hops to the Mun or Minmus. Larger, inline containers are planned so you won't have to spam your station/ships with tanks or babysit them with weekly milk-runs from Kerbin. And finally I'm working on converters using welded, retextured parts because no one wants to lug 5 Kerbal-years' worth of life support out to Duna.

[Taki117]

BUG: It seems that the elctricity is not being calculated correctly. (Or I'm doing something wrong) I have the mk-1 command pod (The starter) with 4 of the small battery packs mounted on a truss below giving me about 3 hrs of power. Thinking that with my engines recharging my batteries I could make it to the mun and back I set off, but the Munar transfer is 5 hours, 4 hrs 55mins later I still have about 1 hr of battery power left, making me very confused.(Please note I warped most of the way across Kerbin SOI)

[TaranisElsu]

BUG: It seems that the elctricity is not being calculated correctly. (Or I'm doing something wrong) I have the mk-1 command pod (The starter) with 4 of the small battery packs mounted on a truss below giving me about 3 hrs of power. Thinking that with my engines recharging my batteries I could make it to the mun and back I set off, but the Munar transfer is 5 hours, 4 hrs 55mins later I still have about 1 hr of battery power left, making me very confused.(Please note I warped most of the way across Kerbin SOI)

Thank you for the bug report.

I found and fixed a bug where it was not consuming enough electricity from loaded vessels while at high time warp. It will be in the next release. Also, because of issues in stock KSP with ElectricCharge, nothing in the mod requires electricity while the vessel is unfocused.

[Taki117]

Thank you for the bug report.

I found and fixed a bug where it was not consuming enough electricity from loaded vessels while at high time warp. It will be in the next release. Also, because of issues in stock KSP with ElectricCharge, nothing in the mod requires electricity while the vessel is unfocused.

You're most welcome. I am aware that Electric charge isn't consumed when the ship is unfocused, and I believe you fixed the bug I was referring to. This is a great mod (As is the Fuel Balancer) and keep up the good work.