[1.0.5] TAC Life Support v0.11.2.1 [12Dec]

[The Lone Wolfling]

I'd be interested. If you've already got things operational (as I haven't done any modding in KSP yet, though planning on doing so) it'd sure be easier. Is that greenhouse model in your pack (if already made. Not sure if you meant you were GOING to make one). Personally, if the greenhouse is in, I'd rate it at a high efficiency though low output, thus you'd need a lot of them. 95% would last a moon base somewhere in the system until resupply was due... even if you had to carry a lot of greenhouses to handle your crew.

I've got a set of MM configs that vaguely work, at least to a first approximation. That being said, I'm still testing and working on it - in particular I'm still converting one part of the submod to a MM config. I'll probably push a semi-working copy out tonight or tomorrow, but no guarantees.

In particular, no idea what to do about unloaded vessels. The mix of life support working on unloaded vessels, recyclers not working on unloaded vessels, and TAC silently discarding overflowing waste/CO2 is a nasty one. I might just (drastically) up the amount of CO2 / waste the recyclers can store, but that has other issues.

[Patupi]

I've considered modding for KSP, and specifically this function. My thoughts were that you could label the conditions (oxygen levels etc) when a ship becomes inactive, how much it changes at current settings, and note the current time. When it becomes active later on you recalculate on these simple conditions, noting how much time has passed and how much O2 would have been used. It's not accurate, it ignores if the system is out of power (say, when solar cells go into darkness), but could account for CO2 running out (fairly easy to calculate).

(note I haven't looked into the cfg files yet, and haven't any experience with Unity or c#, let alone KSP, yet)

Edited September 9, 2013 by Patupi

[The Lone Wolfling]

I've considered modding for KSP, and specifically this function. My thoughts were that you could label the conditions (oxygen levels etc) when a ship becomes inactive, how much it changes at current settings, and note the current time. When it becomes active later on you recalculate on these simple conditions, noting how much time has passed and how much O2 would have been used. It's not accurate, it ignores if the system is out of power (say, when solar cells go into darkness), but could account for CO2 running out (fairly easy to calculate).

(note I haven't looked into the cfg files yet, and haven't any experience with Unity or c#, let alone KSP, yet)

Works. You may wish to disable going into timewarp if electricity is not at full - that would at least take care of the trivial cases.

Also, is it this mod that's disabling high time warps?

[Elthore]

is this the effort to smash tac and ioncross together? thats ****ing amazing!

The next step (after this) might be to allow kethane mod to create oxygen and perhaps create fuel cell and osmosis parts to allow electricity, fuel, oxygen to be transformed for crew use.

Keep it up, your efforts will be much appreciated

[KOCOUR]

Iam definitelly going to download this, but only after the models of the containers will look better because that placeholders shown in OP look terrible.

[dlrk]

^ Yeah, agree with that. Just a plain silver or white would be fine.

[TaranisElsu]

I am definitelly going to download this, but only after the models of the containers will look better because that placeholders shown in OP look terrible.

I struggle with the attitude in posts like this. I am sorry that I am not a 3D modeller so the parts are a little ugly. I'm working on learning how .

But to discard the entire mod because some parts are ugly? What about the hours and hours that I spent coding the functionality? And do you know how easy it is to modify some stock parts or another mod's parts to contain my resources*? You could even create some parts of your own and use them.

Just a plain silver or white would be fine.

Funny thing is the parts are a simple off-white or gray. I think it looks so terrible because of shadows or reflections or something... I think the parts would look much better if I knew how to give them a metal-like texture or pattern instead of a solid color.

* Changing a mod's parts for personal use falls under "fair use" and is allowed, and most modders would not have a problem with you doing that. A problem only arises when you try to share or publish your changes. Then you need the original author's permission, and you need to give proper credit.

[TaranisElsu]

Sorry that I have not been as responsive lately. Real life, you know how it is. That and I've been trying to take some time and actually play KSP. I was spending too much time modding so I didn't have time to use anything that I had created. That is why there isn't any recycling yet. I have not needed it. I have yet to send Kerbals beyond the moons of Kerbin . I had a space station and manned missions to the moons, but I found it easy to keep those stocked with hundreds of days worth of resources.

Don't worry though. I have not abandoned any of my mods, and a new update is coming soon TM.

Also, is it this mod that's disabling high time warps?

Sorry, I should document that better: I did not want someone to accidentally time warp right past resource depletion and crew death so the mod takes you out of time warp once when resources are "low" (< 10%) and again when resources are "critical" (0%). I had issues with dropping straight to 1x, so I have it gradually step down to 1x (note that both MechJeb and the Kerbal Alarm Clock also do it this way). The problem is stepping down to 1x before you run out of resources. So I check the amount of resources left and if you are in danger of running out within 1.1 real-time seconds (at whatever current warp rate), then I decrease the warp rate. That way, it should drop to 1x right before you run out and not minutes beforehand or afterward. Which means that if you are at 100,000x time warp then you need at least 110,000 seconds (30.5 hours) worth of remaining resources or the mod will drop your warp rate.

Think about that in the context of ElectricCharge.... Who has made a rocket with over 110,000 units of ElectricCharge? And the ElectricCharge is constantly being refilled, so no rocket needs that much capacity... Any suggestions? If I decrease the 1.1 real-time seconds, then I run the danger of not slowing down early enough and overshooting by minutes (or hours at high time warp). The same issue will come up when recycling gets implemented because you will not need a large capacity for any of the resources.

A work around for now to allow higher time warp rates is: add more batteries. More capacity means that you should have enough ElectricCharge remaining to pass the checks, so it will leave your time warp rate alone.

[DrPoo]

So does this mean that i cant recycle carbo ndioxide yet? This will twart all attempts at an interstellar mission, ill wait for this to be a more developed mod.

[Crater]

So does this mean that i cant recycle carbo ndioxide yet? This will twart all attempts at an interstellar mission, ill wait for this to be a more developed mod.

Do you mean interstellar, or interplanetary.

If the former, then, well, there sort of isn't actually anywhere in game to go.

If the latter, then, I have a TAC-supported mission on Ike that has been on the surface for nearly 200 days now, and will be heading home soon, they are just waiting for a transfer window back, so it totally doesn't cause a problem with mission duration.

[Donziboy2]

Yep its called planning ahead.

The whole point of life support is to force you to add in things that up till recently have not existed, you have to actually keep your kerbals alive. You have to plan out the mission not just launch them and decide to use them a year from now. It increases the challenge and adds to the game.

Disclaimer...

I am not currently using TAC Life Support nor have I used it... Im using Ioncross ....

[7rex]

For long term bases I have remote controlled resupply rocket that drops off a load of resources with the old one being sent back to space and de-orbited to destroy it.

[vedrit]

I am sorry that I am not a 3D modeller so the parts are a little ugly. I'm working on learning how

I, however, am a modeler (http://vedrit.deviantart.com/gallery/23544888) and can spend some time to make you some parts. I've been waiting for resource recycling (not just CO2/O2) before implementing this mod into my game. That said, I'd be happy to help any way I can.

[amo28]

Rottielover had suggested a while ago to use procedural fairings to cover up the life support canisters for this mod. This alone prompted me to drop Ioncross and switch to this mod -- very happy so far!

I put up a replica of the Skylab to show just how not-ugly this mod is to run. The whole thing is 116 parts. Link: http://imgur.com/a/jLvt2

Edited September 14, 2013 by amo28
Credit where it's due.

[Starwaster]

I struggle with the attitude in posts like this. I am sorry that I am not a 3D modeller so the parts are a little ugly. I'm working on learning how .

But to discard the entire mod because some parts are ugly? What about the hours and hours that I spent coding the functionality? And do you know how easy it is to modify some stock parts or another mod's parts to contain my resources*?

welcome to the world of feedback. it can be ugly, but bad feedback is better than no feedback. Now you know where your mod is weak. at least you dont have people moaning about syntax when what was really asked for were bug reports

[fenderzilla]

hmm... you should add a part that converts IntakeAir into TAC_Oxygen, so you don't have to keep shipping O2 to Laythe even though you can breathe there. Oh, and it's kind of silly that kerbals can die from lack of oxygen/temp control when they're sitting on kerbin's surface.

[Temeriki]

Just throwing some ideas out here. Any hab module as long as it powered should be able to last a week without any additional supplies/tanks (with full crew) as long as its powered. O2 and CO2 recycling is a sore point, as of now we just dump our excess CO2 and make more O2 out of waste water electrolysis. Excess CO2 should be dumped overboard if the air system is powered, if its not powered instead of an increase in CO2 there should be a drop in O2 (that means lack of oxygen should cause kerbal death, not rise in co2), if someone is running a greenhouse, CO2 could be converted back into O2, wastewater converted back into water, while increasing food generation. Water/wastewater can be recycled at 100% efficiency with electricity via electrolysis. This gives a person the option of storing only water for future generation of water and oxygen. Food can be generated via electricity with an algea farm (giving you your space food production), that could in theory also recycle CO2 into O2. In order for any life support module to make sense in the long term is for some sort of greenhouse module (space deployable for space stations or ground deployable for planets). I can hear the cries already "But Temeriki, that means you can have 100% efficiency with only electricity", my response to you is SO? With a small crew and large enough greenhouses you could run at 100% efficiency (well 99.999999%). Well technically youd have excess of something, most likely water and O2, food production would be your limiting factor, with a space algea farm youd most likely need 2 to support one kerbal, with greenhouses lets say 1 kerbal each. This would require you to bring excess food and water for the transfer phase of colony missions, and require large bases to support more than a few kerbals. The life support parts should be heavy along with water storage, this would require one to actually have to plan for their additional weight. If someone wanted to get real fancy you could have water collectors on liquid planets (eve, kerbal and laythe), and oxygen generators on planets with atmosphere, just throwing ideas out there, Im trying to learn the plugin system myself to see this come to fruition.

Not trying to sound pompous or unnapreciative but its taken me forever to get all these ideas on the screen, Ive been looking at your plugin and Ioncross and picking them apart to learn how to make a life support plugin on my own. You were gone for so long TaranisElsu, now that your back maybe you could offer a few pointers for helping me making my dream come true, or maybe you could just take these ideas and make them awesomer! Either way, cant wait to see what you have in store.

Random though, is there any way to add a part to a ship that at launch that activates life support on command modules (it could set storage based on the amount of kerbals it holds) kinda like those parts that explode at launch that add functionality? This would remove the need to use module manager to enable the mod on your ship. Im researching this myself but Im completely new to KSP and unity modding.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Temeriki
addendum

[The Lone Wolfling]

Sorry, I should document that better: I did not want someone to accidentally time warp right past resource depletion and crew death so the mod takes you out of time warp once when resources are "low" (< 10%) and again when resources are "critical" (0%). I had issues with dropping straight to 1x, so I have it gradually step down to 1x (note that both MechJeb and the Kerbal Alarm Clock also do it this way). The problem is stepping down to 1x before you run out of resources. So I check the amount of resources left and if you are in danger of running out within 1.1 real-time seconds (at whatever current warp rate), then I decrease the warp rate. That way, it should drop to 1x right before you run out and not minutes beforehand or afterward. Which means that if you are at 100,000x time warp then you need at least 110,000 seconds (30.5 hours) worth of remaining resources or the mod will drop your warp rate.

Think about that in the context of ElectricCharge.... Who has made a rocket with over 110,000 units of ElectricCharge? And the ElectricCharge is constantly being refilled, so no rocket needs that much capacity... Any suggestions? If I decrease the 1.1 real-time seconds, then I run the danger of not slowing down early enough and overshooting by minutes (or hours at high time warp). The same issue will come up when recycling gets implemented because you will not need a large capacity for any of the resources.

A work around for now to allow higher time warp rates is: add more batteries. More capacity means that you should have enough ElectricCharge remaining to pass the checks, so it will leave your time warp rate alone.

I have a suggestion for a workaround. It's a lot of work, and wouldn't be perfect, but it would be a step up from what you have now.

If you don't have enough ElectricCharge to last 1.1s real-time, calculate the net power draw. Unfortunately, there isn't any good way to do that - the stock Module* doesn't separate "how much power will this produce" from "Add power generated to stockpile". About the best way I've found would be to (save the current power level and) temporarily add an absurdly large ElectricCharge capacity to a part, then call the update method of all "unconditional" generator modules (solar panels, RTGs, etc.) on the ship. This will give you the amount of power produced that tick. Remove the temporary capacity and revert to the amount left before the magic. Calculate the net power draw this tick (=use - production). If thenet power use won't last 1.1 seconds real-time, then don't allow warp.

Personally, I think the entire resource system needs an overhaul into three phases, at least at higher timewarps. First have all parts that produce/draw resources unconditionally (as in not transforming resources) do so, ignoring storage limits (this also includes allowing negative resources temporarily.) Then have all "generators" do their transformations, but only within normal limits (only produce power if you aren't already topped up, etc.). Then clamp all resources to normal limits, and inform any unconditional resource drawers if their resource(s) are at 0.

About the only time this would have issues is if you have chained resource transformers, and that isn't too too common. The logical next step would be ratios, and it would solve that problem too, as well as the recycler problem, but would be an even bigger pain.

Also, still working on the IonCross configs. Not sure if I should seperate the food into the greenhouse and have the mechanical recyclers only deal with air (but have a stock of food / water), or not.

Edited September 14, 2013 by The Lone Wolfling

[TaranisElsu]

hmm... you should add a part that converts IntakeAir into TAC_Oxygen, so you don't have to keep shipping O2 to Laythe even though you can breathe there. Oh, and it's kind of silly that kerbals can die from lack of oxygen/temp control when they're sitting on kerbin's surface.

They won't die from lack of Oxygen on Kerbin (below ~8km) or Laythe (below ?km), since both of them have an atmosphere with oxygen. They can die from stale air or temp control (i.e. lack of electricity), and I agree with you about changing that. I was thinking that if the craft is "landed" or "spashed down", they could open a window or hatch and get fresh air. I think I'd have to look at the ambient temperature though to determine if they freeze or something...

[rottielover]

Someone on this thread had suggested a few weeks ago to use procedural fairings to cover up the life support canisters for this mod. This alone prompted me to drop Ioncross and switch to this mod -- very happy so far!

I put up a replica of the Skylab to show just how not ugly this mod is to run -- http://imgur.com/a/jLvt2

Your welcome lol

now if I can just get my (evil?) plan kicked into gear [the plan to get the ironcross guys talking with TaranisElsu]... Still working on that.

[KeithStone]

This mod is strong enough that I really want to use it, save for the conversion of resources. If anyone does know how to make a fork that would make ironcross work with TAC for converters, allow the biofuel and greenhouse mods (that work with ironcross) to use wastewater and convert things, and lastly to give some use to the greenhouses in the home 2 mode (and to a less extent, a little use for the greenhouse from the hab module from the HOME-1 included in the pack) to create/recycle resources (not 100%, but something is better than nothing) then I would go full force in to using this mod. For now, I fully support it's development, and may play around with it in a separate install of the game.

[DrPoo]

You could make a Kethane config file that converts kethane to air, dunno about food though, that could be done too. Perhaps one could dig after deposits of minerals to fertilise hydropnics?

Water is easy, the surface of the moon is easy to make water from, wonder if Mun has that type of surface too, but otherwise you could make a water recycling system.

[rottielover]

Everything you describe can be accomplished with CFG file edits to the various parts.

I have no idea how forking and licensing works, so I am not distributing my cobbled together attempt at combining a few of the mods you mentioned, but I will tell you that I simple looked at the cfg's and then started playing with the resource names and module sections.

The result is as I stated before, a cobbled together lifeSupport mod that allows me to recycle the TAC wastes into TAC consumables.

If the community would assist me in getting these two talking to each other, then I hope the result would be the birth of the lifeSupport mod to end all others.

Just to prove I'm not talking out of the wrong orifice...

Edited September 15, 2013 by rottielover

[Patupi]

I'd love to use your CFG Rottielover, but the whole point of Tac Life support is that it works irrespective of whether the craft is active or not. From what you've said before the recyclers you've added in only function when the craft is active. Not terribly helpful. If I have to keep craft active to get them to work I may as well use Ioncross. If you can get it to work when the craft isn't active... then yes I'd love to get that mod!

[rottielover]

Well right now TAC would calculate and give you the waste products from whatever amount if time since the craft was last loaded, you could then recycle them into usable resources and keep going.

Keep in mind that I think the way this is working is that TAC is just figuring out how much time has passed between times the vessel was active/loaded.

I'm not a developer, but I'll take a look at the source from TAC's plugin. My guess is that someone smarter then me could add a check to see what recycler parts there are in the vessel and the. Adjust the calculations to how much waste/usable resources should be produced based on if the recycler is marked active and what the recycle rate is.

Basically I can tell you how it might work, I'm not sure I can code it.

I'm an infrastructure engineer not a dev Jim!

Edit: btw I'm working on modding the biofuels greenhouse to be a combo greenhouse and water filter for TAC. I have everything but the water filter working.

Edit 2 : fixed it I have not looked into the "while unloaded" thing yet. This thing is super-unbalanced right now, but functional.

Edited September 16, 2013 by rottielover