[1.0.5] TAC Life Support v0.11.2.1 [12Dec]

[nothke]

I don't know if it's possible or not, but my common sense is telling me that the passive consumption (while not being focused on the ship, or during high time warp), should be done in a way that on exiting from ship (or going into high warp), you mark the universal time and save the consumption speed, and then according to them, when you get back to the ship (or exit timewarp), the game calculates how much resources is left. This could be step one into improving the system (if it is possible). A next step would be running this continuously (not just on load) for ALL ships in the background.

Also, a quick UI suggestion (although I have many of them) - remove the big text message "BLABLA KERMAN IS ABOUT TO DIE" (not sic), it really gets annoying after some time. instead of that it would be nice to have a red blinking LS button and then when you open it then you should see what's going on.

[TaranisElsu]

So I've been thinking about things lately... there is no reason that I have to provide all the parts and the plugin to make things work... and I should not have to "approve" someone's parts... so instead of asking a modder to make parts specifically for my mod, would someone make some parts that would be useful for any life support mod? Things like storage containers, greenhouses, recyclers, etc?

My thought is that a couple 3D modellers could create life support part packs, with config files for different mods like Ioncross and my TAC Life Support mod, and then I could link to those part packs in the OP. Then they are not making parts for me and giving them to me. Their part packs remain their own, and remain separate so they can maintain them, and add to them, and improve them without me getting in the way. They can have their own style. And you guys can pick the style that you like most. Therefore I will split out my parts into a separate download so you can choose to use them or not, and you can choose to use someone else's parts instead.

We will need to coordinate on the config files so that they are compatible, but KSP is really easy to mod and change so you can easily add my resources to any part and you can add my part modules (plugin functionality) to any part.

My ideas for parts:

* Storage containers for food, water, oxygen, CO2, waste, and waste water -- plus some that have a combination of resources. I really like just adding a "life support" container that has x days worth of resources instead of having to add all three parts individually.

* Converters:

- air recycler: CO2, electricity --> oxygen, waste

- air filter: IntakeAir --> O2, only if the atmosphere contains oxygen

- grow food (greenhouse): water, fertilizer, CO2, electricity --> food, O2

- algae air recycler: water, fertilizer, CO2, electricity --> O2 (more efficient and faster than the greenhouse)

- water purifier: waste_water, electricity --> water, waste

- waste processor: waste --> fertilizer

- water splitter: water, electricity --> oxygen, LiquidFuel(?)

- oxygen extractor: Oxidizer, electricity --> oxygen (someone could also make an Oxygen->Oxidizer converter, but that has little to do with life support)

* Extraction/collection:

- drill/mine for O2, water, fertilizer/nitrates

- air intakes collect IntakeAir, can extract oxygen from it if the atmosphere contains oxygen

- water scoop for collecting water from a lake or ocean

- air intake that collects CO2 from non-oxygen containing atmospheres? But note that just because an atmosphere does not contain oxygen, that does not mean that it is rich in CO2.

I will focus on the plugin code and getting recyclers to work, especially when not on the active vessel. Although I want to learn 3D modeling so I will probably create a part pack of my own, just don't expect it to be great for a while .

TL;DR - 3D modelers can make part packs without me being in the way (and having to "approve" them); I will link to them in the OP; I will focus on the plugin code and trying to get recyclers working

[vedrit]

I've already started working on some. They (And other suggested parts) can be found here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/49969-Deskjob-Manufacturing

[sumghai]

So I've been thinking about things lately... there is no reason that I have to provide all the parts and the plugin to make things work... and I should not have to "approve" someone's parts... so instead of asking a modder to make parts specifically for my mod, would someone make some parts that would be useful for any life support mod? Things like storage containers, greenhouses, recyclers, etc?

My thought is that a couple 3D modellers could create life support part packs, with config files for different mods like Ioncross and my TAC Life Support mod, and then I could link to those part packs in the OP. Then they are not making parts for me and giving them to me. Their part packs remain their own, and remain separate so they can maintain them, and add to them, and improve them without me getting in the way. They can have their own style. And you guys can pick the style that you like most. Therefore I will split out my parts into a separate download so you can choose to use them or not, and you can choose to use someone else's parts instead.

Although I don't currently use any life support mod, I have designed my FusTek Station Parts Expansion modules with the intention that someone would one day use it in conjunction with a life support mod such as yours or Ioncross.

I've been exceptionally busy with postgrad and my own projects (as well as a possible overhaul of my station parts to use the new MODEL{} node system), but I reckon that all it takes would be a few CFG edits with ModuleManager to get my station parts to use your life support system.

My ideas for parts:

Let's hear them, then

* Storage containers for food, water, oxygen, CO2, waste, and waste water -- plus some that have a combination of resources. I really like just adding a "life support" container that has x days worth of resources instead of having to add all three parts individually.

My Karmony Logistics Modules might be suited for this purpose - they are essentially passageways lined with lockers for food/water/equipment, overhead tanks for O2/CO2 and underfloor tanks for waste / waste water.

* Converters:

- air recycler: CO2, electricity --> oxygen, waste

All crew-capable Karmony modules (Logistics, Node MkIII, Habitation, Science, Utilities, Kuest Airlocks, Kirs Docking Module and Kupola) will have built-in air recyclers.

- air filter: IntakeAir --> O2, only if the atmosphere contains oxygen

I'll probably pass on this one, since my present focus is on orbital space stations. Maybe if I expand to planetary outposts in the distant future.

- grow food (greenhouse): water, fertilizer, CO2, electricity --> food, O2

- algae air recycler: water, fertilizer, CO2, electricity --> O2 (more efficient and faster than the greenhouse)

I don't currently have a Karmony Greenhouse yet, but it's planned.

- water purifier: waste_water, electricity --> water, waste

- waste processor: waste --> fertilizer

Sounds like this is best suited for the Karmony Utilities modules.

- water splitter: water, electricity --> oxygen, LiquidFuel(?)

- oxygen extractor: Oxidizer, electricity --> oxygen (someone could also make an Oxygen->Oxidizer converter, but that has little to do with life support)

Let me get back to you on this one.

* Extraction/collection:

- drill/mine for O2, water, fertilizer/nitrates

- air intakes collect IntakeAir, can extract oxygen from it if the atmosphere contains oxygen

- water scoop for collecting water from a lake or ocean

- air intake that collects CO2 from non-oxygen containing atmospheres? But note that just because an atmosphere does not contain oxygen, that does not mean that it is rich in CO2.

Probably not going to be covered in my FusTek parts any time soon, since I'm not dealing with resource extraction/harvesting (yet).

I will focus on the plugin code and getting recyclers to work, especially when not on the active vessel.

I think this is probably the most important aspect that needs to be implemented, for realism purposes.

[TaranisElsu]

And I wanted to address something: I originally started working on a life support mod of my own because:

(1) I had played with TROUBLEMAKER’s Crew Transfer & Life Support (http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/crew-transfer-life-support-2/) but it was abandoned. Last update was Dec 2012.

(2) I did not like the garbage mechanic nor did I like having too much of a resource cause problems. Yes, I've watched Apollo 13 (many times, one of my favorites) and I know that CO2 build up was a serious issue. I did not like it as a game play mechanic. To realistically model it, you would need lithium hydroxide (LiOH) as a resource and running out of that would allow too much CO2 to build up. If you simplify it so electricity stands in for LiOH, then how would you have too much CO2? Lack of electricity? Too little scrubber capacity for the crew? Why would anyone ever design a crew capsule without enough scrubber capacity?

(3) No life support mods had implemented resource usage while the vessel was not being controlled.

(4) Fel posted code to make life support work while on EVA (I basically copied his code, thanks Fel!)

(5) I wanted to try and figure the rest out.

I was aware of Ioncross and played with it a little, but because of 2 & 3 & 5, I proceeded with making my own. I do not want to replace yongedevil's mod. He has done a fine job on it, and it works quite well.

I do not think we should combine because we have a little different approach on some things. I am more than willing to share code and ideas back and forth. And I think we can work together in other ways, but I like options...

[TaranisElsu]

Something that I forgot:

I would appreciate some help determining the volume of different resources. Currently, I am using kilograms for the units for all of my resources. We need to agree on how much space things will take up so there is some consistency between the part packs.

Some sites that might help:

http://www.airproducts.com/products/Gases/gas-facts/conversion-formulas/weight-and-volume-equivalents/oxygen.aspx

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/oxygen-d_1422.html

Sorry that I have not had time to do the math . I also need to get my resource consumption calculations posted soon.

[TaranisElsu]

@sumghai

I like your FusTek Station Parts and I look forward to using them with my life support mod .

[rottielover]

Omg this is going to be epic. I love the fustek station parts (btw, I do use them for bases, not just stations!). Having better support for TAC LS is going to be great. (P.s. about the Kaspar rack system , lol )

I think the only way I could be happier is if Kospy released the new KAS in the next 10 min.

I will stop harping on and on about combining the mods.

[Jivaii]

Only thing I don't readily love about this mod, is that all the resources are _TAC. If I could get rid of that, I'd offer up my first 2 children.

[Crater]

Only thing I don't readily love about this mod, is that all the resources are _TAC. If I could get rid of that, I'd offer up my first 2 children.

You just need to edit it out in the part files, and in the config file that is in plugindata (under the mod in gamedata). All the resources that are used are listed in there, so you can set them to anything you like, just make sure that the resources in the part configs match.

But.... you can keep your children, I value my sanity

[TaranisElsu]

Only thing I don't readily love about this mod, is that all the resources are _TAC. If I could get rid of that, I'd offer up my first 2 children.

As Crater said, you can remove the _TAC. I did that to avoid conflicts with other mods that might add the same resources but with different densities.

See http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/40667-0-21-1-WIP-TAC-Life-Support-28Jul?p=566072&highlight=_TAC#post566072 for instructions.

Edited September 16, 2013 by TaranisElsu
typo

[Jivaii]

As Crater said, you can remove the _TAC. I did that to avoid conflicts with other mods that might add the same resources but with different densities.

See http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/40667-0-21-1-WIP-TAC-Life-Support-28Jul?p=566072&highlight=_TAC#post566072 for instructions.

Are you planning on having a list of compatible/incompatiable mods made up or is there already a list around that I haven't seen yet. That way I don't end up destroying the balance.

[Patupi]

- grow food (greenhouse): water, fertilizer, CO2, electricity --> food, O2

- algae air recycler: water, fertilizer, CO2, electricity --> O2 (more efficient and faster than the greenhouse)

I'd say both greenhouses should output waste water as well, which you then have to re-purify. Perhaps even waste, which could be converted back into fertilizer.

[Mulbin]

So I've been thinking about things lately... there is no reason that I have to provide all the parts and the plugin to make things work... and I should not have to "approve" someone's parts... so instead of asking a modder to make parts specifically for my mod, would someone make some parts that would be useful for any life support mod? Things like storage containers, greenhouses, recyclers, etc?

Currently working on it. Couldn't decide on Ioncross or TAC so I'm making a part set with resources for both.

[greg12]

So, I wonder what time is an update for this mod going to come out soon or later?

[Donziboy2]

Two possible answers.

1) Whenever its done.

2) 1 Hour before 0.22 comes out.

[regex]

And I wanted to address something: I originally started working on a life support mod of my own because:

Can you explain, or tell me where to find the explanation already given, what the consumption rates of certain resources are for Kerbals in your mod? I have been debating with myself over whether to write my own life support system for a lot of the reasons you gave.

Currently, I am using kilograms for the units for all of my resources.

That's good to know.

E: It's also worth asking, how much can I customize this:

• They will die if they go without resources for too long: 30 days without food, 3 days without water, 5 minutes without Oxygen, and 2 hours without Electricity
  
• Crewed pods come stocked with 3 days of resources.
  
• When a Kerbal goes on EVA, he takes a half day of each resource with him in the EVA suit, taking from the pod that he was in.

Edited September 30, 2013 by regex

[Jivaii]

Two possible answers.

1) Whenever its done.

2) 1 Hour before 0.22 comes out.

You missed the final option.

3) As 0.22 is rolling out.

[TaranisElsu]

Sorry for the slow reply.

Can you explain, or tell me where to find the explanation already given, what the consumption rates of certain resources are for Kerbals in your mod? I have been debating with myself over whether to write my own life support system for a lot of the reasons you gave.

<snip>

E: It's also worth asking, how much can I customize this:

Most of the numbers are customizable by changing the config file:

{KSP}/GameData/TacLifeSupport/PluginData/TacLifeSupport/LifeSupport.cfg

Consumption rates are in kilograms per Earth day (24 hours). The max times without a resource are in seconds, along with the default resource amounts.

The consumption rates were chosen based on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_support_system#Human_physiological_and_metabolic_needs

http://equation-of-the-month.blogspot.it/2012/06/kleiber-law.html

I figure that Kerbals weigh about 40% as much as humans do⁽¹⁾ and looking at the second link, that means they eat roughly half as much as a human.

⁽¹⁾ Because a Kerbal in a spacesuit weights 90 kg (0.09 metric tons) and a human in a spacesuit weights roughly 220 kg. My math was a little more complicated than that because according to NASA, their suit weights 310 lbs and the average astronaut weights 175 lbs, for a total of 485 lbs (220 kg). Taking the same ratio of suit weight relative to kerbonaut weight, I figure a Kerbal weights 71.4 lbs (32.5 kg) and the suit weights 126 lbs.

The math: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aioc9ek3XAvwdGNsRlh3OVhlbTFBR3M4RW0zLUNTRFE&usp=sharing

May I ask what you would do differently that you are considering writing your own life support mod?

BTW, I like your PreciseNode mod

[regex]

Sorry for the slow reply.

I have a life too, no worries.

Most of the numbers are customizable by changing the config file:

Great news, I'll check there.

The consumption rates were chosen based on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_support_system#Human_physiological_and_metabolic_needs

http://equation-of-the-month.blogspot.it/2012/06/kleiber-law.html

I figure that Kerbals weigh about 40% as much as humans do⁽¹⁾ and looking at the second link, that means they eat roughly half as much as a human.

50% human consumption was about what I was thinking of using. I also see I can change the EVA resources to 7 hours, that's nice. The only thing left is a ModuleManager config file for setting resources on individual capsules...

BTW, I like your PreciseNode mod

Thanks. It's looking like I might end up liking your mod here.

[Ogamaga]

Most of the numbers are customizable by changing the config file:

{KSP}/GameData/TacLifeSupport/PluginData/TacLifeSupport/LifeSupport.cfg

I don't seem to have this file. Do I need to do anything to get it to generate? Or is it supposed to be there from the zip? The file was not in the zip either. I plan to try it out soon, just trying to make sure everything is set up right.

[Capn]

This really looks cool but no offense, in my opinion the part models don't look to satisfying but besides that i think the mod looks awesome.

[regex]

I don't seem to have this file. Do I need to do anything to get it to generate? Or is it supposed to be there from the zip? The file was not in the zip either. I plan to try it out soon, just trying to make sure everything is set up right.

Start up the game with the mod installed.

[NathanKell]

On the contrary, +50 points for not just copying a stock model. Modeling takes a while to get the hang of.

[regex]

WIP...

They're pretty sub-standard for around here, but if you want them they're yours. If the models had normals I could edit, I think they'd look a lot better. I also have to clean up those seams and maybe do another graphic for the tops and bottoms (might just rotate that one...)