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Kerbin Mini Shuttle

helldiver

By helldiver
in KSP1 Mod Development

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Neutrinovore

Neutrinovore

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idk, this seems to be getting worse... I doubt anyone will agree with me...

-Making it for modular fuel systems first, adding complications from that.

-Using thrust balancing plugins rather than allowing players to learn how much to throttle via rule of thumb/trial and error.

-screwing around worrying about it being "polished" when its a mod for a game that's still being developed.

Im sorry I'm not just praising the developer, its a good looking mod, the IVA's seem spectacular, but I'm concerned, its possible to over-develop or over-engineer something to a bad point.

sorry

once again this mod seems to be really quite nice and interesting, just that it seems to be taking forever and has some really odd problems :P

I agree with you, Betaking. :) While I'm all for modders trying to release the best possible version of their mod that they can, the likelihood that the next update of KSP will 'break' the mod in some way is too high to ignore. So that's how we get borderline 'vaporware' mods like this, and pretty much anything from Wayland or MSI, to name a few off the top of my head. These are mods that are in perpetual development, and just as they become 'almost ready for release, just needs a few final touch-ups', Squad updates the game and 'breaks' the mod, and then the mod has to be restarted from scratch, etc. ad nauseam.

It isn't my intention to be bashing these mods or their developers, far from it. But yes, Betaking, I too have noticed that sometimes we all can let 'perfect become the enemy of good'.

My opinion, worth what you paid for it. :)

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Devo

Devo

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I agree with you, Betaking. :) While I'm all for modders trying to release the best possible version of their mod that they can, the likelihood that the next update of KSP will 'break' the mod in some way is too high to ignore. So that's how we get borderline 'vaporware' mods like this, and pretty much anything from Wayland or MSI, to name a few off the top of my head. These are mods that are in perpetual development, and just as they become 'almost ready for release, just needs a few final touch-ups', Squad updates the game and 'breaks' the mod, and then the mod has to be restarted from scratch, etc. ad nauseam.

It isn't my intention to be bashing these mods or their developers, far from it. But yes, Betaking, I too have noticed that sometimes we all can let 'perfect become the enemy of good'.

My opinion, worth what you paid for it. :)

Breaking the game in a patch to the point where it is no longer enjoyable to play or make mods is also another reason (I underline the scene transition bug that has pretty much turned me off this game) Squad making changes and causing havoc with updates is not what causes vaporware, or at least in my case it doesn't. I expect the game to change, the issue with the changes is the more mods you make, the more things you have to update. I can barely keep on track of the small amount of things I've made, I can only imagine bobcat or someone similar who has made many many mods, updating all your mods can be a very time consuming practice, especially when you need to completely rebalance the entire craft.

I am all for releasing things early and just seeing how they go, but I also do not produce anything near the quality of this mini shuttle. If Helldiver wants to wait 6 months to release it, then so be it. He isn't being paid, he is under no obligation whatsoever to be doing this. He could just as easily not put up this thread and work on it, and no one would be any wiser. But no, instead he created a thread so you might both add your input and also learn a thing or two.

If he wants to use modular fuel systems, that's cool. If he wants to use fancy plugins, that's his perogative. If he want's to polish it to the point that you could eat your dinner off of it, then that's cool too. The point is, it's his shuttle. Yes, it looks superb and all of us can't wait to fly it, but I would rather wait until he is happy that what we are flying is what he has intended, rather than what people pressured him into.

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helldiver

helldiver

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idk, this seems to be getting worse... I doubt anyone will agree with me...

-Making it for modular fuel systems first, adding complications from that.

-Using thrust balancing plugins rather than allowing players to learn how much to throttle via rule of thumb/trial and error.

-screwing around worrying about it being "polished" when its a mod for a game that's still being developed.

Im sorry I'm not just praising the developer, its a good looking mod, the IVA's seem spectacular, but I'm concerned, its possible to over-develop or over-engineer something to a bad point.

sorry

once again this mod seems to be really quite nice and interesting, just that it seems to be taking forever and has some really odd problems :P

Actually none of that is true at all.

-If I were a programmer, and had any interest in Unity, you'd all have this mod a month ago. I'm neither, so I have to rely on working with someone who has put a lot of work into it, that being ZRM.

-I'm dead in the water just as much as you are. We're no different, keep that in mind. Once I get a copy that has everything functional and I can check everything, you can be sure we'll get it out there.

-I don't understand what the modular system and such is for. I think you'll have to reread certain parts of the thread ONLY from ZRM or Me, not from other posters. A lot of posters coming on here are making hasty generalizations and confusing people.

Using thrust balancing plugins rather than allowing players to learn how much to throttle via rule of thumb/trial and error
. That's not going to change, that was my requirement since day one. I hate having to fight with these sorts of vehicles I want to play the game and have fun. Not be concerned as to why it's spinning all over the place ad nausea and falling apart. If you have an issue with that, this might not be the mod for you.

Fourth, it seems you and perhaps some others, are not reading the thread properly or ZRM and my posts.

I said "I did not get a complete copy of the project, hence I have bugs and errors.".

Going to repeat that one more time:

I did not get a complete copy of the project when I posted shots, hence I have bugs and errors. I asked ZRM to send me a copy so I could take shots and answer a bunch of questions people had.

And finally;

ZRM has other priorities currently. I'm waiting for the mod just as much as you or anyone else is. He's not polishing or thumbing around. His version works just fine. He is still finishing to program the other missing MFDs as part of our Phase I goal. However his time is at his discretion. He has school and other priorities that came up that have gotten in the way.

To add, ZRM is not over-engineering or adding anything. I'm well aware of what feature creep is. None of that is happening. You simply have to give the man time to brick and mortar. No one is over analyzing, gun shy, or anything of the sort.

Edited by helldiver
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Sapphire

Sapphire

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I think Helldiver does all the actual parts in terms of modelling and texturing, and ZRM does all the coding and configs. Is that right?

And I can totally attest to school being busy. If he's in college or university, then this is roughly midterm time. It hurts so much! ;.;

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Devo

Devo

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.22 should not break this mod in sandbox. Career mode will require some config updates to add the parts to nodes.

Also congrats on reaching (and passing 100 pages!)

0.21.0 wasn't broken, then came along 0.21.1, If 0.22 isn't an improvement significantly, then well I guess that's that.

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qnistNAMEERF

qnistNAMEERF

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You play KSP very differently than I do.

I can understand where helldiver is coming from. I've played around with space planes in KSP and they are nothing like flying a real aircraft nor is it intuitive. I think part of the problem is a lack of proper aircraft parts. The rockets behave much more like you'd expect them to and are hence more fun. I understand where you're coming from too in that watching everything go wrong is part of the fun. But this is part of the reason some never even bother much with the space planes.

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helldiver

helldiver

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I think Helldiver does all the actual parts in terms of modelling and texturing, and ZRM does all the coding and configs. Is that right?

And I can totally attest to school being busy. If he's in college or university, then this is roughly midterm time. It hurts so much! ;.;

That is correct. I'm a contract artist. I have very little experience in Unity. My experience is in 3D Studio Max, shaders, Mudbox, Zbrush and a little Maya. Unity is very new to me, in fact I only installed it for this project to verify ZRM was getting the proper FBX2013 versions which have the smoothing groups preserved.

okay, sorry Helldiver. misunderstood what was going on I guess.

No problem! :D

You play KSP very differently than I do.

Hahahaha!

I can understand where helldiver is coming from. I've played around with space planes in KSP and they are nothing like flying a real aircraft nor is it intuitive. I think part of the problem is a lack of proper aircraft parts. The rockets behave much more like you'd expect them to and are hence more fun. I understand where you're coming from too in that watching everything go wrong is part of the fun. But this is part of the reason some never even bother much with the space planes.

And that's the short of it. I've put together a lot of shuttles using B9 parts and stock parts and seems like I have to wrangle with them. Most folks I know and have seen videos on youtube don't bother with them. Either they do some inline thing, or do regular rockets.

If we were going to put this much effort in a shuttle, we'd like the largest group of people to be able to use it. Follow me? Hence, we have to make it so that you can easily plop it together, and with little fuss; be able to launch missions and payload with it.

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jroddie

jroddie

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I'm really psyched for this shuttle to come out. ESPECIALLY if it uses metric instead of imperial units. But that's not the important issue. I also do not care about the thrust balancing. Trial and error is the name of the game, and if it works perfectly the first time, then there's no fun in the challenge of making it work on your own. But I'll be happy when it comes out, thrust balancing or no.

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pina_coladas

pina_coladas

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-I don't understand what the modular system and such is for. I think you'll have to reread certain parts of the thread ONLY from ZRM or Me, not from other posters. A lot of posters coming on here are making hasty generalizations and confusing people.

You should check out the modular fuel system thread! ZRM has talked about it quite a bit. It's pretty much required to make an actually realistic space shuttle, since it allows you to use different fuel types like in real life. So hydrogen-oxygen in the giant external tank (low-density, high ISP) and some sort of hypergolic in the orbiter itself (high-density, low isp, for the volume-limited shuttle. Could be standard ksp fuel or something "realistic")

If you used stock fuels only you would have to shrink the external tank by a lot or else it would have a ridiculous amount of fuel and be extremely heavy. So I think ZRM is right to be talking about the modular fuel system for the shuttle in its current form.

Anyway the project is great and I'm sure it will all work out eventually. Any semi-realistic space shuttle is going to be a little bit complicated and I like that. Advanced gimballing plugins, multiple fuel types, it's all cool.

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betaking

betaking

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If you used stock fuels only you would have to shrink the external tank by a lot or else it would have a ridiculous amount of fuel and be extremely heavy. So I think ZRM is right to be talking about the modular fuel system for the shuttle in its current form.

I disagree, use RCS fuel for the Orbital manuvering thusters, and just put the right amount of fuel into the fuel tank without bothering the change the model.

I don't think the amount of fuel is relevant to the actual volume of the fuel tank, though I know many would beg to differ.

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helldiver

helldiver

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You should check out the modular fuel system thread! ZRM has talked about it quite a bit. It's pretty much required to make an actually realistic space shuttle, since it allows you to use different fuel types like in real life. So hydrogen-oxygen in the giant external tank (low-density, high ISP) and some sort of hypergolic in the orbiter itself (high-density, low isp, for the volume-limited shuttle. Could be standard ksp fuel or something "realistic")

If you used stock fuels only you would have to shrink the external tank by a lot or else it would have a ridiculous amount of fuel and be extremely heavy. So I think ZRM is right to be talking about the modular fuel system for the shuttle in its current form.

Anyway the project is great and I'm sure it will all work out eventually. Any semi-realistic space shuttle is going to be a little bit complicated and I like that. Advanced gimballing plugins, multiple fuel types, it's all cool.

I disagree, use RCS fuel for the Orbital manuvering thusters, and just put the right amount of fuel into the fuel tank without bothering the change the model.

I don't think the amount of fuel is relevant to the actual volume of the fuel tank, though I know many would beg to differ.

Hrm, I see I see. Didn't realize that.

So far I've been having perfect ascents and even enough fuel for my circularization burn with enough left over in the tank for anything else (about 30%).

Shuttle flies and ascends perfectly although I am using KerbCom in Combined Guidance Only mode. It requires some practice and I've been doing my gravity turn by hand. When transitioning and jettisoning the LRBs I'm lowering the engines down to about 15% to keep the transition smooth (with about 3% fuel left in the LRBs). It still requires a bit of practice, but once you get the procedure done you'll be good.

Unfortunately the cockpit is still shut down. I haven't been able to figure out why nothing in the cockpit works. Waiting for ZRM to give me an update.

Edited by helldiver
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Abrexus

Abrexus

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Indeed. Has ZRM contacted you yet, helldiver?

It looks like ZRM's last post was 11 days ago. He did mention a while back that he was having some issues that were preventing him from doing any work on the mods that are attached to the shuttle. Hopefully he is ok. At least we have .22 to keep us busy in the mean time.

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