The Stanford Torus Project

[NGTOne]

Just under 40 years ago, Stanford Kerman proposed a type of large space habitat - the Stanford Torus. Now, the Ministry of Improbable Spacecraft has decided to try and make Mr. Kerman's vision a reality.

Our goals for this project are as follows:

Immediate:

1. A large, toroidal space station, capable of housing at least 2500 Kerbals and single-piece launch from the KSC.

2. Gaining experience with constructing large, toroidal stations, in hopes of building larger ones in the future.

Future:

1. The ability to send a Stanford Torus to any location in the Kerbol system.

Our progress thus far:

It's starting to feel like building a suspension bridge rather than a space station - that structure at the top is under massive tension (to the point where the girders are vibrating quite angrily), and uses a set of massive, ultra-strong struts to prevent the torus from snapping apart under Kerbin's high gravity due to the large cantilever of the station "arms".

Edited July 29, 2013 by NGTOne

[gamerhater]

This is cool! I have an idea though... I think if you made a support system on the under side on the station, it might help the vibration problem. This is just an opinion. I don't know much about this game but I can help with structural issues. Another idea is to arch the already available support struts to help with the height distribution.

[NGTOne]

This is cool! I have an idea though... I think if you made a support system on the under side on the station, it might help the vibration problem. This is just an opinion. I don't know much about this game but I can help with structural issues. Another idea is to arch the already available support struts to help with the height distribution.

I actually have added a similar structure to the bottom, but struts are better in tension than compression (regardless of their actual strength), so it hasn't had the effect I wanted. This structure will always fundamentally be a tension structure, no matter what I do.

[gamerhater]

I actually have added a similar structure to the bottom, but struts are better in tension than compression (regardless of their actual strength), so it hasn't had the effect I wanted. This structure will always fundamentally be a tension structure, no matter what I do.

Well, I wish you the best of luck in finding a system that helps. Tension is always an issue with anything on a large scale.

[Chaosratt]

Honestly I would look into Orbital Construction mod. Make an orbital shipyard, ship up the required tonnage of parts, then "build" the station in orbit. Not cheating in my book, you still moved the same tonnage as the station to orbit.

[Rune]

That, or do the mother of all docking campaigns. It actually suits better the theme. Wait, now I have to do try it. Damn, I had managed to stay away form spinning circular stations.

Rune. Let's see, angles for polygons... 150º for a dodecagon, right? See you in a while.

[ecat]

Impressive !

That certainly is a lot of struts. My stock design is a bit smaller, which helps a lot with rigidity, though designing with some flexibility can cause problems it is I think the preferred route. The Mk I had a slight problem...

Fixing that took a grand total of 8 additional struts.

More info and a flight video - launch, iirc it is SSTO capable, certainly shows how flexible it is - can be found here if you're interested http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/22251-Showcase-SPACE-STATIONS!-Post-your-pictures-here?p=531483&viewfull=1#post531483

Edited July 30, 2013 by ecat

[NGTOne]

Impressive !

That certainly is a lot of struts. My stock design is a bit smaller, which helps a lot with rigidity, though designing with some flexibility can cause problems it is I think the preferred route. The Mk I had a slight problem...

-IMGSNIP-

Fixing that took a grand total of 8 additional struts.

More info and a flight video - launch, iirc it is SSTO capable, certainly shows how flexible it is - can be found here if you're interested http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/22251-Showcase-SPACE-STATIONS!-Post-your-pictures-here?p=531483&viewfull=1#post531483

Issue is, mine is gonna end up in the multi-thousands of tons (the prototype already IS). Ring rigidity isn't actually the issue - making it self-supporting under gravity and acceleration is. It's got 16x symmetry (thank you, Editor Extensions), and a fairly awful cantilever. You probably can't tell from the picture, but that structure is actually probably 100 meters across. That crazy structure of struts is required to keep it from bending so far it snaps.

[ixolate industries]

I know you intended to send that up all at once but it would probably be better if you sent up that station in pieces for two resons:

A- the station as a whole doesn't have to be self supporting.

B- with this you could probably make it even bigger.

[NGTOne]

I know you intended to send that up all at once but it would probably be better if you sent up that station in pieces for two resons:

A- the station as a whole doesn't have to be self supporting.

B- with this you could probably make it even bigger.

I'd do that, but I'm awful at docking quickly, and docking with lag just makes me want to tear my hair out from boredom. Besides, the only way to get a proper "ring" shape calls for some clipping between parts (unachievable during docking construction).

[ecat]

Issue is, mine is gonna end up in the multi-thousands of tons (the prototype already IS). Ring rigidity isn't actually the issue - making it self-supporting under gravity and acceleration is. It's got 16x symmetry (thank you, Editor Extensions), and a fairly awful cantilever. You probably can't tell from the picture, but that structure is actually probably 100 meters across. That crazy structure of struts is required to keep it from bending so far it snaps.

Sounds fun!

You may like to take a look at PartGen http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/25061-Part-generator-Version-2-X-release-open-beta . You can make custom structural parts (or fuel tanks full or empty) of any length from a selection of diameters, they appear to be less bendy than the stacked section solution, and of course you can increase the diameter which should help even more (and change the join strength and textures and... there's lots you can do)

[NGTOne]

Sounds fun!

You may like to take a look at PartGen http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/25061-Part-generator-Version-2-X-release-open-beta . You can make custom structural parts (or fuel tanks full or empty) of any length from a selection of diameters, they appear to be less bendy than the stacked section solution, and of course you can increase the diameter which should help even more (and change the join strength and textures and... there's lots you can do)

The other part is that I want the torus to actually be HABITABLE - the parts I'm using have a crew capacity, and I dunno if PartGen can do that (can it?)

[ecat]

The other part is that I want the torus to actually be HABITABLE - the parts I'm using have a crew capacity, and I dunno if PartGen can do that (can it?)

Not by default but maybe you can edit the new parts .cfg file and give them a crew capacity (CrewCapacity = n and there must be some way to add a door)? I've not tried that. As for interior views? I've not tried that either. Getting complicated, but all of it should be possible if you need it.

[NGTOne]

Not by default but maybe you can edit the new parts .cfg file and give them a crew capacity (CrewCapacity = n and there must be some way to add a door)? I've not tried that. As for interior views? I've not tried that either. Getting complicated, but all of it should be possible if you need it.

I don't care so much about internals (keep in mind that the current design has a crew capacity around 2000 - imagine all those IVAs).

[ecat]

I don't care so much about internals (keep in mind that the current design has a crew capacity around 2000 - imagine all those IVAs).

That's one hell of a lot of snacks!

[KerbMav]

There was a modded part that could be stacked with a docking port to make it rotate - maybe the station could be built to ... fold up ?

[NGTOne]

There was a modded part that could be stacked with a docking port to make it rotate - maybe the station could be built to ... fold up ?

Then it wouldn't be stiff enough to reach orbit - the struts required to make it stiff enough would also prevent unfolding.

[KerbMav]

The rotation parts were driven by motors - dont know how well the "parking position" works though.

[NGTOne]

The rotation parts were driven by motors - dont know how well the "parking position" works though.

I've tried using DR-type motors on strutted parts before - it didn't work, because the struts prevented movement (as they're supposed to).

[KerbMav]

Ah ... hmm ... OK ...

But: Do the motors keep the parts firmly in place when not rotating? Then all it would take were quantum struts?

Oh, the part count, the part count!

[NGTOne]

Ah ... hmm ... OK ...

But: Do the motors keep the parts firmly in place when not rotating? Then all it would take were quantum struts?

Oh, the part count, the part count!

No, the motors flex like any other part.

As for part count, I passed the threshold of not caring at about 1500

[ecat]

Looking at this again a couple of questions come to mind...

On the runway, why are you supporting the craft by the centre section? Trying to support from the centre section each outer section is secured by a single radial arm, if you were to support the outer section the inner would be secured by all 16 radial arms. A massive difference in strength and rigidity. If most of the mass is at the centre can you redistribute some of it to the outer sections?

Where are the launch engines to go? Engines on the outer ring have the advantage mentioned above and should be capable of straight lifting you out of the worst of the atmosphere, say 36km. There is also space for a lot of them, thankfully all perfectly balanced, another reason to move as much mass as possible to the outer ring. Engines in the centre give you an advantage when it comes to turning the craft, but I don't think you'll be doing much of that in atmosphere. Once the engines start you can almost forget about gravity, chose the engines such that the acceleration of the outer sections closely matches the acceleration of the inner section - less stress = less need for bracing.

[NGTOne]

Looking at this again a couple of questions come to mind...

On the runway, why are you supporting the craft by the centre section? Trying to support from the centre section each outer section is secured by a single radial arm, if you were to support the outer section the inner would be secured by all 16 radial arms. A massive difference in strength and rigidity. If most of the mass is at the centre can you redistribute some of it to the outer sections?

Where are the launch engines to go? Engines on the outer ring have the advantage mentioned above and should be capable of straight lifting you out of the worst of the atmosphere, say 36km. There is also space for a lot of them, thankfully all perfectly balanced, another reason to move as much mass as possible to the outer ring. Engines in the centre give you an advantage when it comes to turning the craft, but I don't think you'll be doing much of that in atmosphere. Once the engines start you can almost forget about gravity, chose the engines such that the acceleration of the outer sections closely matches the acceleration of the inner section - less stress = less need for bracing.

Those supports are temporary - a test, to see whether the structure could carry its own weight.

As for mounting the engines on the outside, I'm not sure that's the best idea - struts are more rigid in tension than compression, and the whole thing is fundamentally a tension structure. I'm not even entirely sure how I'd go about rebuilding it into a compression structure (as would be required by mounting the engines on the ring).

I might give it a try, though.

[Diche Bach]

Honestly I would look into Orbital Construction mod. Make an orbital shipyard, ship up the required tonnage of parts, then "build" the station in orbit. Not cheating in my book, you still moved the same tonnage as the station to orbit.

OMG I want. Time to start adding mods I think !

[Northstar1989]

So, you're building a Stanford Torus. Have you seen this mod?

It *MIGHT* help.

Regards,

Northstar