Yet another Mechjeb thread (but this time different)

[hoojiwana]

The problem comes when some of those people decide to bash the ones who do use mechjeb or other mods. When they do that, it becomes elitism.

It also happens the other way as well. Both people who use and do not use Mechjeb are capable of acting elitist.

[annallia]

Agreed the door swings both ways.

[Johno]

Well, thank you to all who participated in this discussion, one way or another. I have now done the deed and downloaded MechJeb.

WOW! What a difference it makes to the game! Within a very short time I have started asking myself how you'd go about playing the game without it! (Same way I have done for the last 2 years, maybe? )

However, I have to agree with everyone who's cautioned against letting it have access to the RCS when it doesn't have to. One docking attempt ended in tears . .

[Immashift]

First off, I care not if you use it or not.

I do. I use it mainly for readouts. I like its display customization.

After I've done a refueling trip to my station a few dozen times or my hundredth mun injection or Duna transfer, I don't care to do it again manually. I WILL use ascent autopilot for mundane things, I will use the maneuver planner for things I have done dozens of times to save myself the time of dragging on nodes till it's the way I want.

If I'm doing something for the very first time, like my first few landings on each planet, I'll always do it manually. Afterwards, the thrill of accomplishment wears off and I just want to be on my way doing the next thing.

I also find it good for having a reliable way to design a craft. It can cut down on a lot of the human errors when for example testing fuel limits on SSTOs.

It can also be used as a teaching tool. I remember when I was new I used ORDA to dock cause I kept flying by what I was aiming for, not understanding the navball markers. Through using autopilots, and watching what they do when, I got a general sense of how to fly successfully, and refined the technique from there.

I would caution against using it all the time for everything, as that can lead to complacency. I have a fully stock install, and a mod heavy install. I will 100% say trying to do things with a pure stock install after having done the same thing with my mod heavy install, is a lot harder.

To me the game isn't a bloody competition. I am not necessarily better for using or not using it than the next guy. I really, really don't care one way or the other.

My .02

Edited August 2, 2013 by Immashift

[roosterr]

Mechjeb is really the only mod I install, yet have dabbled in a few others from time to time. I dont play KSP to show off my hand-eye coordination by steering everything, I enjoy KSP for the dream, design, planning aspect. As for the "cheating" aspect, keep in mind if you dont build a craft that is stable and with enough fuel, good design, etc, your craft will crash and burn no matter how good your automation system is (like reality).

I use it for just a few things:

1. create an efficient launch profile by timing your gravity turn, turn ratio, and staging. Doing this by hand all the time just gets old.

2. holding orientation with the prograde, retrograde, normal, etc. with the push of a button. Doing this by hand proves nothing to the world so its nice to push one button instead of constantly steering to find your orientation

3. real-time flight info, like thrust to weight ratios (even as you build), apo and peri so you dont have to toggle "M". Also on rendezvous, I like the time-to-target and dx at closest approach info as you close in.

4. OCCASIONALLY, I use the autolanding computer (so did Neil!) if it is a repetitive landing site and that my craft has a proven track record doing so. It is a great time saver.

Otherwise I have yet to even test many of the other bells and whistles. BUT the good thing about those other bells, is they introduce new rocket science terms, whether I decide to look them up or not, MJ can be a teacher.

CONS: Some KSP players will dis you for using it.

Edited August 2, 2013 by roosterr

[EKS21]

Is it cheating when NASA or the Soviet Space Agency uses autopilot?

Anyway, one of the good things about Mechjeb is that it can give you your true altitude rather than your altitude via sea level. It also allows for fine adjusting of your Nodes (sorry forgot their full names! ) which is quite handy!

[togfox]

After the 1000th launch and doing gravity turns in just the right spot and doing yet another circularisation ... MJ thanks.

[KerbMav]

keep in mind if you dont build a craft that is stable and with enough fuel, good design, etc, your craft will crash and burn no matter how good your automation system is (like reality).

Being the main reason I dont get this quarrel at all.

1. create an efficient launch profile by timing your gravity turn, turn ratio, and staging. Doing this by hand all the time just gets old.

2. holding orientation with the prograde, retrograde, normal, etc. with the push of a button. Doing this by hand proves nothing to the world so its nice to push one button instead of constantly steering to find your orientation

3. real-time flight info, like thrust to weight ratios (even as you build), apo and peri so you dont have to toggle "M". Also on rendezvous, I like the time-to-target and dx at closest approach info as you close in.

4. OCCASIONALLY, I use the autolanding computer (so did Neil!) if it is a repetitive landing site and that my craft has a proven track record doing so. It is a great time saver.

1. I havnt had enough of this by now - and I dont trust autostaging - nor my construction skills, it still happens that I have to rearrange stages or something during ascent ...

2. being the main reason I would want to use MJ: the keyboard is not sensitive enough, the navball is to small/pixelish, to many joystick-problem-threads to make me dust of my old stick ... *ahem*

3. I already use KER for this, but I like the design of MJ more and the seperately movable windows - yet MJ does not support design calculations for different planets/moons (as far as I know)

4. planning on letting MJ put me close to a planetary base or other landing site and take control on the last 2km or so - especially in atmospheres ... you know ... hitting that spot an all ...

Anyway, one of the good things about Mechjeb is that it can give you your true altitude rather than your altitude via sea level. It also allows for fine adjusting of your Nodes (sorry forgot their full names! ) which is quite handy!

There are a couple of different mods that do the same - but I reckon one complete mod puts less stress on hardware ressources?

And part count for those that need one. (Cudos to partless chatterer here!)

Edited August 2, 2013 by KerbMav

[Epic DaVinci]

I have been trying to resist responding to your post, but I've lost the battle...

With all due respect, I get tired of the accusations of elitism. You are in a forum with an above average percentage of people with strong physics and math backgrounds. Why is it "elitist" if those people want to do a little math or engineer a solution to a problem using only the limited tools available in the stock game?

Nobody would accuse artists (such as those who make the parts we all enjoy) of being elitist for practicing their passion. Nobody would accuse actors or writers of elitism for doing the same. Why then, is it acceptable to criticise people who are talented in mathematics or the sciences in general for enjoying their passion?

There will always be some in any area of talent who really are elitist, but the vast majority of posts I read on these forums are just "sciency" people doing what they love.

First of all,

Thank you for replying in a respectful and constructive manor.

I think my definition of an elitist, may differ from yours.

Let me explain my first comment. I have a great deal of respect for the number of people on these forums that are able to carry out rather complex calculations. I find it mind boggling when i read some of the equations that people post on here, that level of Physics and mathematics knowledge is beyond me.

I am in no way criticising people who choose to play the game this way, for a couple of reasons.

1: It is up to the individual how they play the game, there is no right and wrong way.

2: If I had that level of mathematics skill, I would probably do the same.

My problem is with people that choose to use there Maths and Physics skill to enjoy the game, belittling those who choose to let MechJeb do the work for them, stating quite openly in some cases that any achievement that is done with the use of Mechjeb is invalid.

In reply to your comment of the Music industry, i believe this is a case were Elitism is a given aspect of the industry. Being born in the 70s, i find myself hating more and more modern music, and leaning towards the "Proper" Musicians. I'd listen to artists like Queen, ACDC, Dire Straits, Pink Floyd, Elton John, Micheal Jackson all day over today’s tripe (Justin Bieber, Nikki Minage, One direction who use a music industry version of Mechjeb)

I hope this clears my statement up somewhat.

[Geschosskopf]

However, I have to agree with everyone who's cautioned against letting it have access to the RCS when it doesn't have to. One docking attempt ended in tears . .

Before 0.21, the rule was never have RCS on at the same time as either SAS or MJ. In 0.21, however, this has changed. Neither SAS nor MJ now wastes your RCS, at least if your ship is balanced. So if you're seeing constant RCS use from either system, something is wrong with your ship.

On docking with the MJ autopilot in 0.21, it works perfectly, provided you understand that:

1. DO NOT have CapLocks on. CapLocks activates a built-in, stock, but somewhat rudimentary RCS balancing system that MJ either doesn't know exists or doesn't know how to use. So, MJ + RCS + CapLocks = fail.

2. Turn on MJ's built-in RCS Balancing module. MJ uses this flawlessly. So, MJ + RCS + MJ RCS Balancer + NOT(CapLocks) = good.

[Mercy]

Is it cheating when NASA or the Soviet Space Agency uses autopilot?

I personally don't use it as I have all the info I need with KER, but I do understand why some people might use it for basic tasks like orbiting for the 100th time as it bores them. It does not bore me, so I do not need to use it. The only time I have any problems with people using it is when they make a stupid comparison (such as above) or brag about their automated achievements. I personally do not care what people do in their personal game beyond that.

Edited August 3, 2013 by sjwt

[noxcarakus]

I have been trying to resist responding to your post, but I've lost the battle...

With all due respect, I get tired of the accusations of elitism. You are in a forum with an above average percentage of people with strong physics and math backgrounds. Why is it "elitist" if those people want to do a little math or engineer a solution to a problem using only the limited tools available in the stock game?

Nobody would accuse artists (such as those who make the parts we all enjoy) of being elitist for practicing their passion. Nobody would accuse actors or writers of elitism for doing the same. Why then, is it acceptable to criticise people who are talented in mathematics or the sciences in general for enjoying their passion?

There will always be some in any area of talent who really are elitist, but the vast majority of posts I read on these forums are just "sciency" people doing what they love.

It isn't elitist if people want to do math, it is elitist when those people start believing that they are better than everyone else because they can do something that they assume others that use MJ can't. Or when a purist says using any mod no matter how trivial is cheating because it isn't stock. Unfortunately, there will always be accusations of elitism and cheating, and the mod/no mod or MJ/no MJ debate will never end because there will always be someone from all three camps saying bad things about the other two.

[sjwt]

And I'd say after 60 posts and a whole working week, the OP should be able to come to a conclusion now, Case closed..