[0.25]KSP Interstellar (Magnetic Nozzles, ISRU Revamp) Version 0.13

[Kerbonautical]

@Kerbonautical: MW to GW? That's easy. It's a 1GW = 1,000MW. Mega, Giga. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_System_of_Units#Prefixes

Logic should have dictated that really huh? I don't know how but it seems a vital part of my brain has been getting bypassed while using KSPI I think I just expected extreme complexity from the mod off the bat and ran myself into a corner of expecting things not to make much sense. Really loving the mod a lot more now! Starting to think launching so many reactors may have been a bit overkill though, now getting 240GW of power in that little plane at a few thousand feet. I think I'm going to have to give the anti-matter or mining a shot next once I get to grips with all these new fuel and propulsion types here. Also, never before have I seen such TWR! It makes for some very interesting flights

[Einarr]

I should have added more detail... I continued testing the Small AM Bottles even with the panels closed. The batteries did not discharge any faster than with TACLS alone (I had everything else off). The charge indicator for the AM Bottles did not budge from 1k, even under high timewarp.

[artforz]

That's... odd.

I tested with just a command pod, a extendable solar panel and a AM bottle on the pad, and it works pretty much as expected.

When <= 1e-8 AM stored:

Enabling charging makes it consume 1EC/s and charges up at 2 charge/s until it reaches 1000 charge, then it drops to 0.5EC/s and maintains 1000 charge.

Disabling charging ... disables charging. No EC consumed. Charge level stays at whatever it is at.

When > 1e-8 AM stored:

Enabling charging makes it consume 1EC/s and charge up at 1 charge/s until it hits 1000, and it keeps consuming 1EC/s.

Disabling charging ... does nothing. Still consumes EC and charges up, exactly the same as if charging was enabled.

If it runs out of EC, charge starts dropping at 1 charge/s.

If it hits 0 charge, no explosion. I'm just limited to <= 50x timewarp due to the "Cannot Time Warp faster than 50x while Antimatter Tank is Unpowered" thing.

... Is it me or is there basically no downside to always keep charging stopped on AM bottles (saves power below the "free" fill threshold, makes no difference otherwise)?

edit:

This whole behavior seems rather counter-intuitive. Wouldn't it make more sense to have it drop to 0 EC/s when below the "free" threshold and fully charged, and above the threshold drop to 0.5EC/s when fully charged?

Edited May 14, 2014 by artforz

[Threadsinger]

I am?! *facepalm* I never checked the math of how many MW to a GW so didn't realize that's how much power I was netting, I kind of figured the display would switch to GW accordingly, and that the air intake was holding that power back! Thanks man, time to see what this thing can really do!

Yea, with atmospheric drives just slap on as many air intakes as you can! My fusion-drive SSTO's have dozens of radial intakes, and as many forced air intakes as can be managed, and can they can lift absurdly heavy lifts (using large reactors) in atmo. Just make sure that you program in an action group to close the intakes when you get to a high-enough altitude so when you switch to internal fuel, you're not fighting a crazy amount of atmo resistance. Very useful on Jool where you can easily make a Kerbal-to-Jool SSTO full-return vessel, as long as the action groups are properly set up. I'd also advise you set one up to shut down the fusion reactors so you don't generate waste heat for the trip.

I've boosted craft into Kerbol orbit using nothing but a high-tier thermal power source and a farkton of air intakes... without using internal fuel modes... It's a great feeling after having slogged your way from first principles of rocketry, to Mainsails, to RAPIERS, to Tokamaks.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Threadsinger
left out quote

[Einarr]

Logic should have dictated that really huh? I don't know how but it seems a vital part of my brain has been getting bypassed while using KSPI I think I just expected extreme complexity from the mod off the bat and ran myself into a corner of expecting things not to make much sense. Really loving the mod a lot more now! Starting to think launching so many reactors may have been a bit overkill though, now getting 240GW of power in that little plane at a few thousand feet. I think I'm going to have to give the anti-matter or mining a shot next once I get to grips with all these new fuel and propulsion types here. Also, never before have I seen such TWR! It makes for some very interesting flights

I believe there is a limit to the 'core temperature' that is available when using Thermal Receivers. This will result in lower ISP when you use onboard propellants than you might otherwise get with a dedicated reactor. However, you can channel a crapton of power into the Thermal Receiver and get some crazy thrust out of the thermal nozzles/turbojets.

I may just rebuild my power network to use this for SSTOs meant for use in the Kerbin system only...it'd save a bit of weight on the SSTO in question...

[TurielD]

//@PART[b9_Engine_SABRE_S]

{

MODULE

{

name = ModuleSabreHeating

}

}

This bit of coding combined with Deadly Re-entry has caused me so much headache over the past few weeks. Unexplained exploding RAPIER, SABRE & Turbojet engines all around.

[ArcFurnace]

Yep, it does that. Needs the intake precoolers to prevent explosions at high airspeed.

Actually, I want to know- do the precoolers prevent the engines from overheating ever, or just up to higher speeds than without the precoolers? I guess I could test it myself if nobody knows offhand ...

[phoenix_ca]

They don't prevent the engines from ever overheating. Even if you have a precooler on every intake, they will explode at sufficiently high speeds. This is why those engines tend to explode as soon as you throttle them up once you start reentering an atmosphere. You're travelling at near-orbital velocities (or even higher depending on where you came from).

[Einarr]

So WaveFunctionP, how goes the testing of your new Grand Tour ship?

[WaveFunctionP]

So WaveFunctionP, how goes the testing of your new Grand Tour ship?

Problem with realchutes, couldn't repack the chutes after landing on duna, had to do a power landing on return to kerbin. I think I still had about 20k dv left over though.

Edited May 15, 2014 by WaveFunctionP

[Waggy909]

I'm still having trouble with radial atmosphere intakes not giving my vessel any intake atmosphere. I edited the sabre intake to accept intake atmosphere a while back by adding:

MODULE

{

name = ISRUScoop

scoopair = 0.6

}

MODULE

{

name = AtmosphericIntake

area = 0.16

}

RESOURCE

{

name = IntakeAtm

amount = 4

maxAmount = 4

}

to SABRE_Intake_M.cfg and both the radial intake and the sabre intake worked fine for a long time. Now all the radial intakes show 0 flow. Despite having like 24 radial intakes and 2 sabre intakes on my vessel, I have like 90 or so units of intakeatm when it loads but when I turn on my engines and all the intakes, then intakeatm goes down to around 3.30 and stays around there when before it would stay completely full until I hit a high enough altitude.

Is there any way to troubleshoot this? I've reinstalled interstellar and ksp a few times now and have been checking for updates to everything like I'm OCD. Thanks in advance!

[Northstar1989]

@FractalUK

I'm glad to see you eventually incorporated the Haber Process before, and I've still got my fingers crossed for addition of the Reverse Water Gas Shift Reaction (for harvesting LiquidWater from any CO2-containing atmosphere, provided you have an adequate supply of LiquidFuel. The reaction again: H2 + CO2 --> CO + H2O)

I would like to continue my suggestion from before of adding Hydrogen-Oxygen Fuel Cells, to allow players to convert LiquidFuel and Oxidizer into usable LiquidWater and ElectricCharge. Currently the only way to get ElectricCharge out of LFO mix is to burn it in a rocket engine with an alternator...

I would also like to point you in the direction of another mod, which initially began as looking to add greenhouses to TAX Life Support, but recently has started looking into possibly using KSP-Interstellar for ISRU options to provide inputs for growing Food (namely for Water and CO2 harvesting). Is there any chance you could help them out with that? (advice/pointers on how to best use KSP-I code)

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/79603-0-2-35-CELSS-Greenhouse-%28TAC-Life-Support-Add-On-Version-0-1-beta%29

Last, but not least, I saw an interesting suggestion on that CELSS Greenhouse mod thread, which I would like to repeat here- and suggest be added to KSP-Interstellar as a base functionality (I take no credit for this idea, it is not my own)

What if players were able to harvest *and store* CO2 using KSP-Interstellar atmosphere scoops?

While this was specifically suggested on the CELSS Greenhouse mod thread as a way to harvest feedstock for greenhouse food production, and there discussed storing the CO2 in TAC Life Support modules, it could just as easily be utilized in KSP-Interstellar for several different purposes...

I was thinking, first of all, CO2 (as a new cryogenically-stored LiquidCO2 resource) could be used in thermal rockets as a potential fuel. Possibly also is Plasma Thrusters... This would be useful for atmosphere-skimmer ships working off any CO2-containing upper atmosphere to harvest and store one more type of useful propellant. Currently, the only atmospheric gas that can currently be used in this way is Hydrogen (in the form of LiquidFuel), harvested from the atmosphere of Jool...

Second, and more importantly, CO2 harvested in this way could be fed as feedstock into the existing pipeline of ISRU reactions- being usable for the Sabatier Reaction instead of the reaction having to be carried out in-atmosphere. This would enable small landers or atmospheric skimmer ships to feed inline refineries in a larger orbital mothership (itself incapable of entering the atmosphere or landing) with CO2, enabling a player to carry out the Sabatier Reaction in space. Even if CO2 (LiquidCO2) were not enabled as a propellant in and of itself, LiquidMethane and LiquidWater both would be. Further, players could always then electrolyze that LiquidWater for a higher-thrust solution than using LiquidWater in thermal rocket nozzles; and the ability to use the LiquidFuel component in Plasma Thrusters, and the Oxidizer component to combust the LiquidMethane in chemical (rather than nuclear) rockets.

In short, a lot of interesting ISRU opportunities could be opened up simply by enabling players to harvest and store CO2 from CO2-containnig atmospheres, and use it as a feedstock into the Sabatier Reaction (which then would have to be added to inline refineries, in a version using LiquidCO2- and also preferable to the landable versions, under the same button if possible, to increase the flexibility of their potential usage...)

Regards,

Northstar

[Einarr]

WaveFunctionP, get outta my head. We're thinking along similar lines, though mine uses a pair of AIRs instead of straight fusion reactors. Mostly for the weight savings.

[phoenix_ca]

Universal Storage already has Hydrogen-Oxygen fuel cells. What's needed is some resource finagling to get everything in line with each other. KSPI's resources deviate from the norm, giving us things like "LqdWater" instead of "Water" which is used by other mods.

[Northstar1989]

@FractalUK

I wanted to add in one other idea, but separate it into a different post, as I am less sure as to its scientific plausibility than in passing cyrogenically-stored CO2 through a nuclear thermal rocket (which all research indicates should be possible).

What of the possibility of harvesting and storing atmospheric Nitrogen (as N2, not as ammonia), and (this is the uncertain part) being able to use it as propellant for Plasma Thrusters, as well as for Thermal Rockets (the latter should be perfectly feasible from an engineering/scientific standpoint).

This would also pave the way for being able to use LiquidNitrogen as a harvestable resource for the Haber Process, which could be transported to orbit and processed there, instead of having to refine it into Ammonia on-planet; and for players to be able to make use of atmosphere-skimmers in Kerbin's upper atmosphere to harvest both Oxidizer (already doable with the Atmospheric Scoop) and the new LiquidNitrogen, as well as trace amounts of LiquidFuel and LiquidMethane (trace amounts of both H2 and Methane can be found in Earth's atmosphere, although they are unstable in an Oxygen-rich atmosphere, and eventually slowly decay in the same reactions as they are "burned" in...)

I suggest being able to harvest LiquidNitrogen mainly to increase the feasibility of atmosphere-skimmer type ships. Currently, such designs are not really feasible on Kerbin or most other planets; as too large a fraction of the atmosphere is unusable for it to be worthwhile (the Nitrogen in the atmosphere still creates drag, even if it cannot yet be used as propellant, for instance). Being able to use captured Nitrogen as a propellant would increase the feasibility of such skimmer ships everywhere- but especially on Kerbin.

I was inspired by a real-life proposal to harvest Oxygen using a satellite in Earth's upper atmosphere, for combustion with Hydrogen shipped up from launch centers, as well as for life-support; that would rely on Nitrogen-capture and a Nitrogen ion engine/ plasma thruster to provide the thrust necessary to make up for drag, and would rely on beamed microwave power from solar satellites in higher orbits... (I wish I could remember where I read up online on this proposal...)

Regards,

Northstar

Edited May 15, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Northstar1989]

Universal Storage already has Hydrogen-Oxygen fuel cells. What's needed is some resource finagling to get everything in line with each other. KSPI's resources deviate from the norm, giving us things like "LqdWater" instead of "Water" which is used by other mods.

Good point. I wasn't aware of that until your post. Could you provide a link to the post on fuel cells on the Universal Storage mod thread? A quick skimming of the OP there didn't reveal anything about it including Hydrogen-Oxygen fuel cells (although I might have been looking at the wrong thread- the one I saw looked more like a WIP dev blog...)

@FractalUK

What are the chances of convincing you to rename all "LiquidWater" as "Water", to be compatible with the Universal Storage mod and TAC Life Support?

Regards,

Northstar

Edited May 15, 2014 by Northstar1989

[phoenix_ca]

Good point. I wasn't aware of that until your post. Could you provide a link to the post on fuel cells on the Universal Storage mod thread? A quick skimming of the OP there didn't reveal anything about it including Hydrogen-Oxygen fuel cells (although I might have been looking at the wrong thread- the one I saw looked more like a WIP dev blog...)

O.o

It's right there on the first page of the release thread, and the development thread has a link to it in the first post.

As for resource unification, what would be ideal is if KSPI followed this. (Sort of; to be honest, the state of resources in KSPI addons from an interoperability standpoint is a hot mess.) I'm actually contemplating writing an MM patch that would align KSPI with it.

Edited May 15, 2014 by phoenix_ca

[Northstar1989]

O.o

It's right there on the first page of the release thread, and the development thread has a link to it in the first post.

As for resource unification, what would be ideal is if KSPI followed this. (Sort of; to be honest, the state of resources in KSPI addons from an interoperability standpoint is a hot mess.) I'm actually contemplating writing an MM patch that would align KSPI with it.

After reading up on Universal Storage, utilizing its fuel cells to create "LiquidWater" would be inadvisable, even if KSP-I renamed its resource to "Water".

This is because Universal Storage converts separate "Hydrogen" and "Oxygen" resources into Water and ElectricCharge- rather than the entirely more useful system of converting stock "LiquidFuel" and "Oxidizer" into "Water" and "ElectricCharge"- which would allow you to use the much more readily-available and widespread stock resources to create water, and was kind of the point of my suggestion... (additionally, KSP-I currently harvests LiquidFuel in places you harvest hydrogen, as the two are assumed to be the same thing- such as when harvesting from Jool's atmosphere with an Atmosphere Scoop...)

Note that it would still be possible to run fuel cells off Kerosene and LOX, if that's what Universal Storage took LiquidFuel and Oxidizer to represent- one would simply produced Carbon Dioxide (which would be useful for a Sabatier Reactor- *nudge, nudge* FractalUK alongside the Water and ElectricCharge...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited May 15, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Northstar1989]

I was also thinking about asteroids a lot lately... (after in my ongoing Career save I discovered a Class C asteroid on a direct collision course with Kerbin in approx 58 days... As a fraction of Kerbin's diameter, that's the same relative size as the asteroid responsible for the Tunguska Event was relative to Earth...)

@FractalUK

What would be the possibility of adding limited harvestable quantities of water-ice to some asteroids? (you could represent it as "Water" if you re-named "LiquidWater", as ice is a form of water after all...)

It's already being done in the "Asteroid Cities" mod- even if they didn't do a good job (in my opinion) with many of there other premises and balancing decisions, you could still how they implemented it in their code...

It could be present in only a random subset of asteroids, rather than all asteroids, if you could figure out how to code that... (Asteroid Cities inaccurately makes all asteroids contain water)

Regards,

Northstar

[ExavierMacbeth]

@FractalUK

What are the chances of convincing you to rename all "LiquidWater" as "Water", to be compatible with the Universal Storage mod and TAC Life Support?

Regards,

Northstar

I don't believe this is such a good idea. Mostly because the way I see it (and decided to treat it for my own personal MM configs) is that Lqdwater is unpurified water while TAC's water is drinking water. My main reason for wanting to keep them separate... Imagine accidentally killing off all your crew because your thermal/plasma rockets depleted your ships entire "water" supply... including the stuff stored in your life support modules

[Jasmir]

I don't believe this is such a good idea. Mostly because the way I see it (and decided to treat it for my own personal MM configs) is that Lqdwater is unpurified water while TAC's water is drinking water. My main reason for wanting to keep them separate... Imagine accidentally killing off all your crew because your thermal/plasma rockets depleted your ships entire "water" supply... including the stuff stored in your life support modules

So, renaming it "WasteWater" should do the job, _but_ there is the need of a unit-agreement at first. (TAC'LS uses dayrations, with is very weird for mod interaction)

[Threadsinger]

@Threadsinger: I suggest reading the wiki page to get a good grasp of how thrust is calculated for thermal rockets in KSPI. https://github.com/FractalUK/KSPInterstellar/wiki/Thermal-Rocket-Nozzle-and-Thermal-Turbojet

Once you've done that you should be able to tweak the values in part files with relative ease to increase thrust provided by the reactors. Although you'll also necessarily be increasing power output too when using generators, because thermal power output is what determines thrust.

Honestly a better option might be to go with B9's SABRE engines or the stock RAPIERs. They're great for SSTO flight.

Thanks phoenix, I was looking to exploit the science fictiony aspects of fusion drives for wicked high thrust VTOL, but I'll wait till I unlock the ap-drives. I'm not keen on modifing the values in the part files, partly because I'm unfamiliar with modifying craft files, mainly because I enjoy the mod as the designer intends.

That wiki page is great, though. Hopefully some more guides pop soon!

[DaveStrider]

1 unit of Tac LS water is completely different from 1 unit of KSPI's LqdWater. Tac's unit makes sense for a life support mod, but none at all for an industrial/sciencey mod like this.

because of this KSPI can't use Water (or Wastewater) without causing incompatibilities with Tac LS or making this mod more complex than it needs to be.

However, i believe Tac LS is planning to change it's resources to the standard SI units, and when that happens naming it water wouldn't be a problem, except for the aforementioned plasma thruster fuel thing. But that can be solved just by disabling fuel flow from the dedicated LS tanks i think.

[blitz2190]

why is it whenever i come out of a time warp and fire the dt vista engines i loose almost half my tritium supply in seconds, and this only occurs near kerbin when im circularizing, never anywhere else

[TheGatesofLogic]

it could be that tritium decay is adding up timewarp decay after-the-fact, but i don't actually know why something like that would happen considering that it ought to be warp-dynamic like everything else is...