sarkun Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 Okay, some progress report.I\'ve got the Hope cut and sliced the way I want her, though I had to ditch some features because they can\'t happen with current KSP version.I\'m still working on her, slowly working out the way the aerodynamics work in KSP (many thanks aevionknight!).Two screenshots (mind that textures still have a looong way to go).[spoiler=Chase plane shots ]It actually didn\'t crash here - that was some serious terrain following flying.Gott work on those wings!She behaves quite nicely now, the only problem I have is that her ailerons seem inverted they look ok, but they work in an opposite direction. Once I figure that out, re-uv-unwrap the wings, and texture the whole thing she\'ll be glorious And quite complicated - the simplest variant will come at 12 parts ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico88 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Looks pretty cool. I hope that the game will support making shuttles like yours and CardBoardBoxProcessor\'s soon enought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC3craze Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Slew is making one too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico88 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Slew is making one too.Yes, I\'m looking forward for his shuttle as well, but his doesn\'t have technical issues because the game\'s programming (as far as I know). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberion Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 She behaves quite nicely now, the only problem I have is that her ailerons seem inverted they look ok, but they work in an opposite direction. KSP automatically selects which way the ailerons work by checking which side of the center of gravity the part is connected to, because forward of the CoG the surfaces need to push the plane the opposite way to achieve the same input results. Check out real planes with canards sometime to see it in action.In your case, the attachment point of your wings are forward of the CoG even though your ailerons are visually behind it. So either move the CoG farther forward via config edits (making rear parts lighter, or vice-versa) or move the attachment node of the wings toward the trailing edge of the wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarkun Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 Yes, I\'m looking forward for his shuttle as well, but his doesn\'t have technical issues because the game\'s programming (as far as I know).Yeah, KSP can handle simple wing designs right now. But when they get complicated it fails miserably.KSP automatically selects which way the ailerons work by checking which side of the center of gravity the part is connected to, because forward of the CoG the surfaces need to push the plane the opposite way to achieve the same input results. Check out real planes with canards sometime to see it in action.In your case, the attachment point of your wings are forward of the CoG even though your ailerons are visually behind it. So either move the CoG farther forward via config edits (making rear parts lighter, or vice-versa) or move the attachment node of the wings toward the trailing edge of the wing.I\'ve had this problem too, but it\'s not it - It\'s not that rudders are acting like canards - they work correctly visually, but the effect they have is inverted. This must be related to my center of lift position relative to center of mass. Or center of drag. Or both. So this is slightly more complicated to fix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venku122 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 ooooh another micro shuttle! The more spaceplane parts the better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC3craze Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Slew says the rudders do not operate. Not sure about those ailerons though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarkun Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 Ok, worked out the aerodynamic snafu. Turns out KSP is a lot more complicated than I thought Anyway, due to aerodynamic reasons I\'ve had to add canards to the design. Not sure if I like her more with them or not.Now that she\'s almost stable, it\'s much easier to take photos Coming in to land... but where is the landing gear?!!Yeah, it took this to make her fly. My wife is looking weird at me - I\'m using spreadsheets to have fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico88 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I\'d prefer it without canards. But if it works better that way, I\'ll have no objection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberion Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Consider some in-line canards - snip the tip of the wing off and make it a separate part, sort of how the canards on my shuttle are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarkun Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 Consider some in-line canards - snip the tip of the wing off and make it a separate part, sort of how the canards on my shuttle are.A cool idea, but it\'s not really an option - I need to distribute the lift on the shuttle evenly - and the wings themselves must have a center very far back, cause the center of mass is towards the rear. So to achieve gliding flight I have to either have a TON of lift in the back - which leads to very unstable and jerky flight pattern, or have some lift in the front too.With the canards, the total lift of all winglets is just 3. Without them, I needed 18 to keep the shuttle flying, and smallest input on the controls could send her careening to the ground in a death spiral. I can adjust their position - right now they are at their most far ahead, but they must be forward of the center of mass, and I don\'t see an alternative to having them right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberion Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 No, you misunderstand, its purely a visual thing - they are still separate parts, just visually cut from the same wing piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarkun Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 No, you misunderstand, its purely a visual thing - they are still separate parts, just visually cut from the same wing piece.Ok, I don\'t understand... perhaps we have a different definition of a wing tip? Do you mean the point furthest in the front, near the fuselage?That could be interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venku122 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Ok, I don\'t understand... perhaps we have a different definition of a wing tip? Do you mean the point furthest in the front, near the fuselage?That could be interesting...The leading edge nearest the fuselage is cut out of the wing to form a pair of canards. Basically indistinguishable(when not moving) on a delta wingP.S. 1000th POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC3craze Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 The leading edge nearest the fuselage is cut out of the wing to form a pair of canards. Basically indistinguishable(when not moving) on a delta wingP.S. 1000th POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!P.S. nobody cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieD76 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 like a Krueger flap, flaperon..what ever you want to call it? or do you mean like a canard built into the leading edge of the main plane? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskierka Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Kreuger flaps are entirely different, used for delaying stall. Flaperons are the name for combined flaps and ailerons, again completely different. What he\'s suggesting is a rare design that works a lot better in KSP than IRL, but there are aircraft that have similar things. Probably the best example is the Sukhoi T-50, though in this case they\'re more for engine management and stall delay than control:You can see at the leading edge wing root, the wing appears to be separated and pointed down. This is what he means by an 'in-line canard'; a forward control surface that is part of the main wing.Granted, those and the ones on the outer wing -are- actually kreuger flaps, which -do- behave differently, but this shows the idea of the in-line canard best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglasdtlltd Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Three shuttles?! Which one do i choose! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarkun Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 The canards stay for now like they are, I\'ve seen some designs contemporary to those of Hope, of a NASA proposed space shuttle successor that had similar canards. I\'m beginning to like them I\'ve worked out the subsonic flight profile that I\'m pleased with - at more than 1 mach all she can do is try to stay on a path, but once below 10km and 300m/s she is controllable, and can glide quite nicely - all this with a fair amount of weight - more than 4 units (she weights more than 10 with full fuel load). Also I think there is no \'infinite glide\' or other nonsense with her.Now I have to get her working properly in orbit (she\'s a little bit jerky and doesn\'t want to stay on course). Then finish modeling the RCS systems, create some mount (she\'ll be side attachable and top-of-rocket attachable) and some public tests may begin ;-). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cepheus Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I\'m quite excited for this. It seems like now is the era of the Space shuttles, ha ha. Though, I am mildly disappointed that you aren\'t using the in-line canards. Either way, it\'s still a pretty sexy ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardBoardBoxProcessor Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 may I suggest some window dividers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venku122 Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 may I suggest some window dividers? bubble cockpits and unobstructed FoV for life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aevionknight Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Nice-looking spreadsheet.Oh, and look, a shuttle too. : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarkun Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 Nice-looking spreadsheet.Oh, and look, a shuttle too. : ) aevionknight, I can\'t thank you enough for your help. I wish that one could make customizable skins in KSP (well I guess that\'s what the decals will be for), then I\'d name the first Hope Vehicle after you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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