Landing spaceplane on Laythe

[pseudochicken]

Hello all,

I recently sent my first SSTO spaceplane to Laythe. It flies around Kerbin fine, gets to orbit fine, and with the assistance with a little extra boost after an orbit refueling my spaceplane can make it to Laythe with fuel to spare.

I am have lots of difficulties, however, trying to land the blasted thing on Laythe. I am sure I could go back to the drawing board and try to make a more stable lander, but this plane is at Laythe now so I want to do it with this one. Some of the biggest difficulty I am having is finding flat ground to land. I have tested landing on this thing multiple times on Kerbin (areas near the runway), and while not the easiest craft to land I can manage it. Granted I am probably a piss poor pilot when it comes to spaceplanes. I have tried well over 25 times (each time requiring me to load from a save far back). So needless to say I have spent many frustrated hours trying to land this spaceplane.

Do you guys have any tips? I come in for landing under 100m/s total. I try to keep my vertical descent less than 10m/s if not 5m/s. But every time I touch down, an engine falls off, or a wing, or a wheel, and before I know it the plane is tumbling and exploding into tiny bits on Laythe's sandy surface. I don't get it because I land fine on Kerbin (flatter ground though). My roommate can testify that my cursing has ramped up in the last few hours. We are starting to consider starting a thread called "Things my roommate says (or screams) while playing KSP."

Cheers

[Echostatic]

I've never tried it myself, but I would think the moon would lend itself well to a VTOL. Landing a more conventional plane seems many times more difficult.

[arq]

100m/s is still a little fast, in my experience. Laythe is tough because of the thinner atmo (though Duna is harder yet). Try to go as low and slow as possible for awhile to burn speed. Below 60m/s should treat you much better.

EDIT: I don't really know what speed is necessary for flight on Laythe (maybe it's actually slower because of the lower gravity?), but I have a hard time landing above 70-80m/s even on Kerbin.

Edited August 6, 2013 by arq

[numerobis]

I concur on the speed recommendation. The shuttle landed on a long paved runway at the same speed you're trying to land on rough ground! Add a bit more wing space so you have a shallower glide path.

[Sof]

Yes, 100m/s is too fast. The poles have flatter ground if you can get there.

[bsalis]

100 m/s in a loaded spaceplane is way too fast for any kind of predictably safe landing on Laythe. If you just want to finish that mission, then I say just keep trying on the flat areas around the equator.

This island here, right on the equator, both East and West coasts have good flat areas for landing...

Next spaceplane, use more wings. Lots more. That or a VTOL.

[MrPopcup]

you'll have no problem with landing a spaceplane on laythe, as far as you do like I did..

make a shallow trajectory, say you want to land on that island above, you must be in the dark side of laythe while in orbit, Retro-burn untill periapses get's before the target ( that way when you time accelerate the planet rotates so you'll exactly be above your target) then after re-entry you can handle anything pretty well if you have jet engines, or glide all the way to land ( you won't land PRECISELY on target, but more or less.. )

[pseudochicken]

100 m/s in a loaded spaceplane is way too fast for any kind of predictably safe landing on Laythe. If you just want to finish that mission, then I say just keep trying on the flat areas around the equator.

This island here, right on the equator, both East and West coasts have good flat areas for landing...

Next spaceplane, use more wings. Lots more. That or a VTOL.

Yeah, I am trying to land on that island. I've landed there twice with traditional VTOL rockets. I am currently trying to land on the western shore right at the equator, due south of those three large lakes, on the peninsula. I landed a 3-man VTOL ship there and I want to have them meet up. There is some flat ground near by, but maybe I should scrap that and land on the eastern shore. I've landed to the east before with a probe and saw that it was pretty flat.

The problem is that what looks like pretty flat ground from several km away ends up having minor undulations in the terrain that flip my spaceplane about upon landing. Or make me smack down way harder than I anticipated.

I will try landing slower at around 50-60m/s. I was reading somewhere else that if I could not land at 100m/s I should just give up (aka I suck). I do not deny that I am a noob at landing spaceplanes, but maybe that person was talking out of their ***.

Ha ha, thanks for the advice.

I thought I was about to fall in love with SSTO spaceplanes, but after this experience I am going back to traditional VTOL rockets.

Edited August 6, 2013 by pseudochicken
typos

[Unistrut]

After splatting one pilot I just gave up and built the next plane with a set of parachutes. It was a bit tricky getting it to settle level enough to land on it's wheels as opposed to it's nose or tail, but it worked, which is more than I can say for the conventional method.

[numerobis]

With enough wings you can get your speed down to 30 m/s or less. I have landed on Laythe at 15 m/s. At that speed, you can smack straight into a steep hill and be fine (if you land on the wheels).

I also recommend having a lot of wheels. They're massless, might as well pile them on to distribute the load and make sure the wing tips don't hit the ground.

[pseudochicken]

After splatting one pilot I just gave up and built the next plane with a set of parachutes. It was a bit tricky getting it to settle level enough to land on it's wheels as opposed to it's nose or tail, but it worked, which is more than I can say for the conventional method.

Yeah, I was considering using parachutes for future space planes.

And more wings is another option. However, after this experience, I may stick to traditional rockets for now.

[pseudochicken]

It's funny too, thinking about this spaceplane stuff. The only reason I started to do it was because my brother plays this game just occasionally, but when he does he just makes high altitude jets and doesn't give a damn about getting into space or orbit, let a lone Laythe. I was looking at his fleet and watched him fly some of his designs. It dawned on us that we could make a few modifications to his existing designs (adding a docking port being the major modification) and get this thing to Laythe. But I wanted to start my own project.

He is excellent at flying the planes in KSP. He lands them in his sleep. He just has difficulty docking and getting nice pretty circulized orbits and has a hell of a time doing interplanetary missions. Our efforts combined would probably result in more success! Perhaps we should go back to collaborative efforts only for spaceplanes.

Edited August 6, 2013 by pseudochicken
typos

[Captain Sierra]

Okay, as a guy who just recently built his first successful SSTO, here's some noob tips. Moar wings never hurts (so long as you have struts and don't use Ferram Aerospace). I also reccommend sending a series of probes to Lathe to scout out landing zones. Or use a manned lander with orbital ship (with plenty of excess fuel for multiple landings) to seek out a good location for an air base and set a flag there as a marker. Once the location is marked, you can use the flag as landing guidance. Lastly, protip, plant 2 flags, one at each end of the flat area east to west so you have a marked out 'runway'.

This is about as much help as I can be.

[Yargnit]

Landing anywhere besides KSC or the Duna flats at 100m/s will suck as others have said. Planes actually fly almost identical on Lather to Kerbin because it has close to 80% gravity and atmosphere, so that won't require any tweaking if you can get the landing speed under 60 on Kerbin. If you come.in nose 10-15° up you can land much slower, just level right fore touchdown.

You can also go with a VTOL capable plane, lands VTOL then transitions to horizontal flight by way of having two engines, one in each direction. This also opens the oceans as possible landing sights, just use the VTOL engine to touch down under 5m/s - again you can practice on Kerbin. VTOL planes are a blast to fly, and SSTO ones are tricky but very possible, and crazy versatile.

[Zephram Kerman]

Here's an example; hopefully you find it helpful. Intrepid has been scouting kethane fields on Laythe for a while now.

(This video is of an older version, from 0.19 and 0.20. The updated one replaced solar panels with the new kethoelectric generator, and has other improvements.) It features Brotoro's "Bird Dog" rover design, two docking ports for compatibility, kethane drills and a converter for refueling, and one extra jet engine for VTOL.

With this design, I've been all over Laythe and found some really beautiful spots. Terrain on Laythe is usually steep and rolling, but there are small spots flat enough to land. However, above 80°N and below 80°S latitudes, the ground is perfectly flat and smooth! So if you get very desperate, follow your compass to the nearest polar area.

The trick is to get your touchdown speed as low as possible. With one VTOL engine, a craft as big as this can slow down to less than 40 m/s and do feather-soft landings if you're patient. Just beware to never go backwards! Wings "don't like" negative airspeed.

[Levelord]

Why not convert your craft into a VTOL space plane and land it on the water?

[Vad]

I don't know if it is still the same in 0.21 but If you land in the dark area at the southpole it is very very flat.

I had the same problems landing but had no trouble landing on the ice.

[pseudochicken]

Ha ha seems like VTOL spaceplane is the way to go. I have a few other projects (including recovering my now stranded dude from my first space plane) before I attempt that. Cool, thanks for the tips guys.

[RoboRay]

[Why was the DELETE POST function removed?]

[Annikovka]

Perhaps a VTOL would be best, can you have a screenshot of your Spaceplane please

[AppleDavidJeans]

Check out Brotoro's Laythe mission thread. His episodes include areas suitable for bases and spaceplanes.