Fengist Posted August 26, 2013 Author Share Posted August 26, 2013 (edited) Challenge Completed11 days after starting this challenge and being 'dared' to prove it could be done, I too have finally finished.I can honestly say the followingI lost no parts anywhere along the way.The plane is completely stock. The only clipping was I buried 2 hideous thermoelectric generators in a fuselage.No autopilots were used and yes, my 'up' finger now has a callous.Luckily, I didn't even have to F9 once I landed and started the circumnavigation. Not so much as a wingtip scraping the ground.I don't remember it taking this long the last time I did it.Glad I did it. Don't wanna do it again. It was nerve wracking at times.Almost there...Thomcott is very glad to be parkedAnd the stats for my final leg.Check the OP for the craft file for my plane PKP if you're interested.Lessons learned and hopefully some tips for those thinking about this challenge:"Wide stance" landing gear. A must. There are no runways on Eve.Power <> altitude. 0-6km. Molasses. Don't try to power through this, you'll just waste fuel. I stayed half throttle in this area while climbing.Power = altitude. 6-16km. Soup. I was able to keep a 35 degree climb here and bumped up to about 65% throttlePower kinda = altitude. 16-20km. Water. Here, I had to keep throttling up in order to climb. Atmosphere gets rather thin.Low power cruise . 20km+. Where'd the air go? At these altitudes you get good speed. But, you lose a LOT of control. Be prepared to take over from SAS if needed and don't forget to caplocks if things get really screwy. automcdonough who completed this challenge as well said he completely lost control at these altitudes. Here I was able to get the throttle down to 30% and maintain about 190m/s speeds.Throttle up if you need to dive. Kethane jets lose air intake pressure when you dive. If you're already running low power, consider throttling up when you dive to keep the air pressure up, then throttle back once it settles down.Don't trust the green bar. The KIntakeAir bar will almost never move. If you wanna know if you're about to flame out, right click your engine and watch the air intake. I didn't dare let mine drop below 400. Throttle up or climb to increase that air intake pressure.Make sure your plane is airborne before the end of the runway on Kerbin. If you need 120+ m/s and the ski-jump at the end of the KSC runway, you're asking for trouble on Eve. On Kerbin, I was airborne at around 50m/s. On Eve... I was off the ground at 15 m/s.Take a look at my .craft file if you get the chance in the OP. You'll notice 2 things. First, the mass is behind the lift. That gave me issues when empty on fuel like the .craft file is. You'll also note that my lift is ABOVE the mass. While it cost me speed and fuel, it means I landed and took off in VERY short distances. Something to consider.Think 'conserve'. I saved the longest leg of my trip for last hoping I'd learn more about the plane and how to fly it efficiently. I'm glad I did. Early on I wasted gobs of fuel. The last flights, I still had plenty of Kethane left.So, there it is. Other than landing backwards, completed without major incident. If anyone has any other questions about how to complete this challenge, just ask and I'll try to answer.Bon Voyage Edited August 27, 2013 by Fengist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhnifong Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 I'd like to share my attempt I did it mostly according to the rules, but also with a lot of twists. very cool challenge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartwo Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 (edited) postcards from the journeyKethjet2(imaginative right)Extras:-Kethane jets are most efficient at 11.2km-I'm ready for the Duna edition.-The OP was right views are stunning during the day.-I started to like Sigfield so plans for a rescue are underway.-Nomnomnomnom landing gear:/ Edited July 17, 2014 by Spartwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glacierre Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 -I'm ready for the Duna edition.Duna should be doable with ions, with (kethane) jets it might be too easy and get done in a single hop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartwo Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 (edited) Duna should be doable with ions, with (kethane) jets it might be too easy and get done in a single hop.Duna is easy with Ions but the challenge is kethane.Duna does present its own challenges though a thin atmosphere means any kind of useful altitude (one that won't hit mountains) is very inefficient. Edited August 27, 2013 by Spartwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhnifong Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 Would anyone else like to circumnavigate Duna while also visiting all the easter eggs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm537 Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Wow I'm quite impressed with all the people who have done this!!! I generally love Eve and have often tried to build land and return missions with only occasional success. But I hadn't put much thought to flying around it! I am working on my craft right now! Does anyone have any tips on how flying around Kerbin compares to Eve? Like if I build a craft which is capable of circumnavigating Kerbin on one tank will I need one stop on Eve? Two stops? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Destroyer Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 This sounds very fun. Tommorow I shall try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fengist Posted August 28, 2013 Author Share Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) I'd like to share my attempt I did it mostly according to the rules, but also with a lot of twists. very cool challenge!Dood, I thot I went overboard with my tug and tanker. I now think I took the easy way. Well done! Let me know what mods you used (umm on the plane. I see gobs of toys on everything else). Edited August 28, 2013 by Fengist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fengist Posted August 28, 2013 Author Share Posted August 28, 2013 Duna should be doable with ions, with (kethane) jets it might be too easy and get done in a single hop.Last time I attempted it I found out my plane didn't have enough ceiling to get over most of the mountains making it impossible. I could barely get to 3km altitude. I haven't been back since the latest patch to see how bad the new terrain is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fengist Posted August 28, 2013 Author Share Posted August 28, 2013 So this is my routeWhen I first looked at one of your pics and saw you sitting on a wing I thot you had crashed. Then I realized, no... your plane is handicapped accessible.-Can mods which don't affect the craft like aviation lights be excluded.If you can honestly say no other mods were used, I'll give you stock assisted (I see jeb there.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fengist Posted August 28, 2013 Author Share Posted August 28, 2013 Would anyone else like to circumnavigate Duna while also visiting all the easter eggs?Considering the effort you put into this challenge, I don't expect you to take the easy route on Duna. Let me work on getting a plane to Duna and I'll take a look. I want to make sure it's doable before I post that challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartwo Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 When I first looked at one of your pics and saw you sitting on a wing I thot you had crashed. Then I realized, no... your plane is handicapped accessible.If you can honestly say no other mods were used, I'll give you stock assisted (I see jeb there.).Actually Eve ate the wheel.I removed all mods exept MJ so assisted yea.I do have a plane on Duna if you want me to check the probability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fengist Posted August 29, 2013 Author Share Posted August 29, 2013 Actually Eve ate the wheel.I removed all mods exept MJ so assisted yea.I do have a plane on Duna if you want me to check the probability.Actually, I just got mine on Duna and... ummm.. oh boy. Let's see, it took me 7 attempts to land and just trying to hop over to the next Kethane patch I flamed out three times and smacked into the side of a mountain twice. From what I can tell, at max speed on Duna you'll be lucky to get 4,500m altitude (running twin engines). You'll also flame out at about that same altitude. The vast majority of Duna is at 3,500m + altitude. AND there's one huge north/south chain of mountains with one little narrow pass that might be under 4,000m. And a polar seems to be out. I tried landing on the icecap twice and never caught enough air in my wings to slow me down.The problem. In order to keep the air going in a Kethane jet you need to either climb or speed up. On Duna, If you climb, you end up losing more air quickly and you have to speed up to do it.. So, I ended up trying to run 400m/s 500m off the ground just to keep from flaming out. It didn't work well. Running that low to the ground, you can't see the next mountain coming. It's a serious catch 22 and may not even be doable with stock Kethane engines.Eve is EAAASY compared to Duna. And what really sucks. Duna is less than half the size of Eve. I was thinking 8,000 Kethane would get me all the way around. Nope. Burnt gobs trying to keep air going and enough altitude to not smack into the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm537 Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 Whew. I gotta say this is quite the challenge! But I have succeeded! My craft was stock except for mechjeb on the launcher. The plane itself was totally stock. I was able to do the flight with only one fuel stop too. Sorry for all the pics at one time.The full ship on the launch padArriving at EveLanded on EveFlag is planted we're all fueled up and ready to goIn flight headed west. It took much longer than expected to reach a reasonable cruising altitude and speed.My first landing but Kethane is no where in site. I only stopped to avoid my next landing being in the dark. Epic shot after taking off in the morningMy first and only refueling stop. From here the nearest Kethane deposit in the desired direction is almost 2,000 km away. My Eve is very one sided...Another epic shot of Eve's large oceanMy first flag is within 100km. Victory!!!Lemsted has landed safe and sound and planted another flag to commemorate the eventMy take off and landing site located at 40' N and 229deg 52' WMy refueling stop at 17deg 44' N and 3deg 40' WAll in all that was indeed quite a bit of work but very fulfilling. It reminded me of the time when I circumnavigated Kerbin back in .17 before air intakes, oxidiser, and when Eve had an 11,000m plateau to land on. Thanks for the challenge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fengist Posted August 29, 2013 Author Share Posted August 29, 2013 Whew. I gotta say this is quite the challenge! But I have succeeded! My craft was stock except for mechjeb on the launcher. The plane itself was totally stock. I was able to do the flight with only one fuel stop too. Sorry for all the pics at one time.All in all that was indeed quite a bit of work but very fulfilling. It reminded me of the time when I circumnavigated Kerbin back in .17 before air intakes, oxidiser, and when Eve had an 11,000m plateau to land on. Thanks for the challenge! Ummm dood. I really appreciate you taking the challenge but I can't let that plane slide. There's like 10 wings part clipped in there. And how many flaps? I could have infi-glided that plane and done it with no fuel. Now if you can get 12,000 Kethane off the ground on Eve with TWO wings and one engine and make just one stop... THEN I'll be impressed. That plane uses flawed game mechanics to stack wings for more lift.That and nowhere did you show how much Kethane you had on board before planting the flag.Challenge yourself, not the parts.And yea, I've landed on that plateau, which I hate to see isn't there anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fengist Posted August 29, 2013 Author Share Posted August 29, 2013 Actually Eve ate the wheel.I removed all mods exept MJ so assisted yea.I do have a plane on Duna if you want me to check the probability.By the way, well done on your circumnavigation. Name added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glacierre Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 Eve is EAAASY compared to Duna. And what really sucks. Duna is less than half the size of Eve. I was thinking 8,000 Kethane would get me all the way around. Nope. Burnt gobs trying to keep air going and enough altitude to not smack into the ground.Landing in eve is really easy, completely opposite in duna. Parachuting is probably the only reliable way, or vtol.About the ceiling, if there is some corridor (don't know) it would add to the challenge as a kind of Dakar like navigation test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm537 Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 Ummm dood. I really appreciate you taking the challenge but I can't let that plane slide. There's like 10 wings part clipped in there. And how many flaps? I could have infi-glided that plane and done it with no fuel. Now if you can get 12,000 Kethane off the ground on Eve with TWO wings and one engine and make just one stop... THEN I'll be impressed. That plane uses flawed game mechanics to stack wings for more lift.That and nowhere did you show how much Kethane you had on board before planting the flag.Challenge yourself, not the parts.And yea, I've landed on that plateau, which I hate to see isn't there anymore.Well I guess wings by default allow part clipping. Which is silly but appologies about that (though it's a set of three wings and I don't think a tri-plane would by default be disallowed) my bad on the pre-Kethane flag plant but it was empty. I actually specifically sent a second ship to Eve cause the first had been a tester pre-loaded with fuel. And while it is perhaps possible to have infi-glided the plane (which I didn't do and frankly upon trying was unable to do), but I'd like to point out that ALL aerodynamic surfaces in KSP are currently flawed. Any plane at all technically violates physics. It's just a question of how much you allow it to be violated. So that then is the question: how many flaps / aerodynamic surfaces am I allowed? Is it by plane mass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fengist Posted August 29, 2013 Author Share Posted August 29, 2013 Well I guess wings by default allow part clipping. Which is silly but appologies about that (though it's a set of three wings and I don't think a tri-plane would by default be disallowed) my bad on the pre-Kethane flag plant but it was empty. I actually specifically sent a second ship to Eve cause the first had been a tester pre-loaded with fuel. And while it is perhaps possible to have infi-glided the plane (which I didn't do and frankly upon trying was unable to do), but I'd like to point out that ALL aerodynamic surfaces in KSP are currently flawed. Any plane at all technically violates physics. It's just a question of how much you allow it to be violated. So that then is the question: how many flaps / aerodynamic surfaces am I allowed? Is it by plane mass?I could believe you about being empty when you started. That, I don't have a huge problem with. But what you have there isn't a triplane. My plane, it's VERY obvious I have 2 sets of wings. No, a triplane would not be disallowed. I thot about one myself. What you have is a monoplane with a REALLY thick wing. There isn't any separation between your wings. A true triplane in KSP would have a lot different flight characteristics than what you have. And yes, the game physics are definitely flawed. To me though, it looks like you decided to take advantage of those flawed physics to the point that it defeats the purpose of the challenge.As for 'flapping' surfaces... just from the pics I count TWENTY SIX. That's 12 on each wing, 2 canards and 2 rudders. Just me goofing off, I got an infiglider with 9 pairs of canards and 0 engines up to 100+km apoapsis at 1,400+ m/s on Kerbin. There is no specific number or formula I had in mind. What I had in mind was 'reasonable.' Did you really need that many control surfaces? Sorry, but even if it can't infiglide, it just looks super suspicious.I'm really open to some weird designs in this challenge. I like looking at the strange stuff people come up with. If your wings had CLEAR definition between them so I wasn't guessing how many you had and you had a 'reasonable' number of control surfaces so that they had little or no potential to assist your flight, I'd be stunned. But I'm still thinking you stepped a bit over the line between challenging your skills and simply wanting to defeat the challenge in the design stage. I have no problem with you making one stop for fuel. That in itself is pretty amazing considering that Eve has a larger diameter than Kerbin. What I question is how much did those stacked wings and multiple control surfaces play in bending the physics engine to allow you to do that. I tell you what though. I'll be as fair about this... as I'm gonna be. I'll let those who know how difficult this challenge is decide. If any of the guys who have completed this challenge posts on this thread that they agree with you, that your plane is acceptable, then I'll accept it. Otherwise I'd prefer, dare I say it here, a more realistic approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fengist Posted August 30, 2013 Author Share Posted August 30, 2013 Wow I'm quite impressed with all the people who have done this!!! I generally love Eve and have often tried to build land and return missions with only occasional success. But I hadn't put much thought to flying around it! I am working on my craft right now! Does anyone have any tips on how flying around Kerbin compares to Eve? Like if I build a craft which is capable of circumnavigating Kerbin on one tank will I need one stop on Eve? Two stops?Sorry it took me a bit to get back to this, I only had time to answer the 'essential' posts lately.As for tips. The two are drastically different. If you read my post where I completed it, there are some 'lessons learned' that will give you some valuable insight. Also, reread the OP. I give a lot of tips in there.One other thing to keep in mind, Eve is larger (diameter) than Kerbin and it's atmosphere is a LOT thicker. A HUGE percentage of my fuel was spent just trying to get to my cruising altitude of 23km. Those two factors combined means that you're going to either need to pack on a lot more fuel than you do on Kerbin (my choice) or become REALLY good at getting to and flying at really high altitudes (30km +).So, to answer your question about how many fuel stops you'll need. Plan on ALL of them and hope for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automcdonough Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 I posted some numbers on my fuel usage if you look back to the first few pages. It really varies quite a bit and your craft design will be a huge influence on it. so, hard to say! My particular craft could have done with less fuel on board though. I never used the last 15% or so and it was almost too heavy to get off the ground when full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minerman30 Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 I think this should be stickied. Despite not being stock, it is a very well-balanced challenge that requires skill to complete. Definitely what I call a challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fengist Posted September 18, 2013 Author Share Posted September 18, 2013 I think this should be stickied. Despite not being stock, it is a very well-balanced challenge that requires skill to complete. Definitely what I call a challenge.Glad you like it but ummm... it is a stock challenge... and more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SargeRho Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 Kethane isn't stock... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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