[space] Is Mars-one a scam?

[SargeRho]

I think you misunderstand what people are saying to you.

Possibly. My impression is that they're saying "we can't do it now, so let's not even work towards it.".

[Nibb31]

*sigh*

You're not listening, are you?

[jwenting]

No it isn't. Climate change is an uncontrolled process. We didn't start it intentionally, and we're not doing very well at slowing the process, let alone stopping or reversing it. The fact that we unintentionally triggered the warming and aren't able to control it shows exactly how bad we are at geoengineering. We aspire to the technology but we aren't able to do it. Calling terraforming viable because we triggered AGW is like a caveman who's just been struck by lightning declaring himself the master of electricity.

in fact we didn't start any climate change AT ALL. The climate of this dirt ball has been changing for billions of years, and will continue to change for billions of years to come.

Thinking anything we do has a major impact on that is major hubris and a prime example of megalomania.

Of course the whole AGW establishment is a good example of a bunch of megalomaniacs in action. And they are in fact (and have been for decades) proposing massive programs to change the climate.

Ironic: the exact same guys now screaming "global warming" were in the 1970s and '80s screaming "global cooling" and trying to get the UN to deposit thousands of tons of carbon dust on glaciers and the polar caps in order to absorb sunlight to prevent the coming ice age, and to stop the sea levels going down which was turning coastal areas into deserts.

[Seret]

Possibly. My impression is that they're saying "we can't do it now, so let's not even work towards it.".

As far as I can see, nobody has said that to you at any point.

[jwenting]

This is the root cause of most of our problems, and the real elephant in the room that nobody wants to address. I'm also a strong believer in the Global Footprint hypothesis, which is quite alarming (our 2013 Overshoot Day was last wednesday, and it's getting earlier every year. If we don't resolve exponential population growth during this century by peaceful means (by making birth control widely available to all human populations and by ending foolish pro-natality programs) the problem will take care of itself, and it won't be pretty.

Of course, this and global warming are way beyond the topic of feasibilty of MarsOne and probably deserve their own thread.

ah, you've fallen hook, line, and sinker for the Club of Rome's agenda of voluntary human extinction (well, voluntary as in planned and executed, the people who get killed aren't asked), population explosions, etc..

Sadly (for you, not for mankind) they're a bunch of nutters and their predictions are false. In fact they know very well they're false, but they're a means to an end and the end is total and permanent worldwide power for themselves, supplanting all national governments and of course doing away with those pesky elections.

[Seret]

climate change stuff

I think this line of argument is off-topic, and probably not leading anywhere useful. It was originally raised as a (spurious) example of terraforming. If we veer away from that specific point and start discussing climate change on Earth in general we're just going to derail the thread. This is a thread about Mars One, not about people's political beliefs about climate change.

[SpaceHole]

Possibly. My impression is that they're saying "we can't do it now, so let's not even work towards it.".

Im not sure what you are talking about now - but im assuming its about Mars-One.

I can only speak for myself my point is not what you just said but reality. I pretty much think its impossible that this Mars-One thing is more than a marketing stunt, a fraud, or some new reality show hoax.

(De Grote Donor, Space Cadets etc.)

And even if it would be real just because it exists doesnt mean not supporting it makes me "against the general idea" behind it.

Lets be honest here there is no way in hell i would trust some random guy that makes this up 30 billion dollars and counting.

I would actually support such a thing (minus the big-brother-part etc. which kind of smuts space exploration ...) if big and trustworthy organisation would do it.

To be honest i really dont understand why big Space-Agencies havent tried crowd funding yet. I would be more than willing to send them my money (and i am actually someone who normally never does that ...).

I think this line of argument is off-topic, and probably not leading anywhere useful. It was originally raised as a (spurious) example of terraforming. If we veer away from that specific point and start discussing climate change on Earth in general we're just going to derail the thread. This is a thread about Mars One, not about people's political beliefs about climate change.

Well its actually gladly not even a discussion outside of the USA. I can just hope that this will stop here - because it was moving in a direction of climate-change-denial which is frightning.

Edited August 24, 2013 by SpaceHole

[Person012345]

Terraforming, or rather, the main process that would be used for Terraforming, is being done right now. And we don't even emit the strongest of greenhouse gases. CO2 mostly. Water is more powerful than that. Methane and certain compounds are stronger by, if I remember correctly, several 1000 times.

The most optimistic estimates put Terraforming to the point where humans can live on Mars (probably with breathing aparatus and winter clothes though) at a few centuries.

Right, because digging up some coal and burning it over periods of hundreds of years to yield a few degrees in temperature increase is the same as transporting an entire planet's worth of water to another planet, releasing it and making sure it stays there, transplanting enough vegetation to ensure that it survives, ensuring that the soil is usable and so on, transporting all the gasses required etc. you get the idea. Totally the same.

[Albert VDS]

To be honest i really dont understand why big Space-Agencies havent tried crowd funding yet. I would be more than willing to send them my money (and i am actually someone who normally never does that ...).

Space Agencies are part of governments, they aren't a company. That's like if the army would go door-to-door to get enough money to buy a new tank.

[SargeRho]

Right, because digging up some coal and burning it over periods of hundreds of years to yield a few degrees in temperature increase is the same as transporting an entire planet's worth of water to another planet, releasing it and making sure it stays there, transplanting enough vegetation to ensure that it survives, ensuring that the soil is usable and so on, transporting all the gasses required etc. you get the idea. Totally the same.

Exept that's not neccesary to Terraform Mars. All the chemicals needed are on the surface, and there is water ice all over (or rather, under) Mars' surface and on the pole caps.

[SpaceHole]

Space Agencies are part of governments, they aren't a company. That's like if the army would go door-to-door to get enough money to buy a new tank.

I wouldnt say that most seem rather deogranized or organized like international organisations.

Also while i would see a lot of things wrong with the army doing so - space exploration and science is a completely different thing.

Also isnt even NASA pretty much a huge percentage of private companies working with them?

Also especially if they were government - we pay taxes anyhow what would be the argument against "giving them more "free" taxes for a specialized purpose?

[SpaceHole]

Exept that's not neccesary to Terraform Mars. All the chemicals needed are on the surface, and there is water ice all over (or rather, under) Mars' surface and on the pole caps.

So i wonder what would happen to mars weather? Once we started terraforming - how do we stop it? How did mars become like it is now in the first place?

But most importantly by doing such things to a planet we pretty much destroy a lot of potential research.

Not to mention that talking about terraforming a planet we have yet to visit personally is a bit ...

Sorry but you seem to simplify terraforming way too much.

Also if can terraform already - why do we fail to stop "simple" things like global warming? Why cant we still not anticipate weather for longer periods of time or even change weather?

Edited August 24, 2013 by SpaceHole

[Person012345]

Exept that's not neccesary to Terraform Mars. All the chemicals needed are on the surface, and there is water ice all over (or rather, under) Mars' surface and on the pole caps.

The pole caps put together are barely larger in volume than the greenland ice sheet, and go ahead and inform me exactly how much below-ground water there is on mars.

[Seret]

That's like if the army would go door-to-door to get enough money to buy a new tank.

If they let me have a go on it, I would be totally down with that.

[Seret]

How did mars become like it is now in the first place?

IIRC Mars lost its magnetosphere, and the solar wind stripped most of its atmosphere away. We're not sure why the magnetic shield failed, and without it it's only ever going to be a dead rock.

[SargeRho]

Mars probably lost its magnetic field because it cooled down. Perhaps the impact that blew away much of its atmosphere might have contributed.

Water, water everywhere. More blue = more water.

[Person012345]

Mars probably lost its magnetic field because it cooled down. Perhaps the impact that blew away much of its atmosphere might have contributed.

Water, water everywhere. More blue = more water.

I was asking more for volume than some vague map of unknown source with the url "mars_neutrons" wherein "more blue = more water".

[SargeRho]

It's from the GRS Neutron Spectrometer aboard the 2001 Mars Odyssey orbiter.

[Seret]

Water, water everywhere. More blue = more water.

Yes, there's some moisture in the dirt. But what are you going to do, strip mine the whole planet to get at it?

There's a hell of a difference between water being present, and there actually being a hydrological cycle present. You seem to be saying: "There's water on Mars, therefore there can be a life-supporting hydrological cycle". That's an extraordinary claim, it would require extraordinary evidence to support it.

There's enough water on Mars to help support an outpost, particularly at the poles. But there are never again going to be seas or lakes without an atmosphere, and there's never again going to be an atmosphere.

[SpaceHole]

Mars probably lost its magnetic field because it cooled down. Perhaps the impact that blew away much of its atmosphere might have contributed.

Water, water everywhere. More blue = more water.

Not knowing what the actual problem is - isnt that actually a problem for terraforming ... ?

(that was the whole point of my question)

Edited August 24, 2013 by SpaceHole

[SargeRho]

It isn't. It's good for terraforming actually. As Mars heats up, dry ice will sublimate and the atmosphere will thicken, further heating it up, and sublimating more dry ice. Eventually it will become warm, and dense enough, for water ice to melt, and remain liquid. Some water will evaporate, forming clouds and atmospheric water vapor, which aids in the greenhouse effect. At that point, more of the previously mentioned super greenhouse gases come into play, and heating the atmosphere further. We could try and de-orbit phobos and deimos, but that will probably do more damage than good.

[Person012345]

It isn't. It's good for terraforming actually. As Mars heats up, dry ice will sublimate and the atmosphere will thicken, further heating it up, and sublimating more dry ice. Eventually it will become warm, and dense enough, for water ice to melt, and remain liquid. Some water will evaporate, forming clouds and atmospheric water vapor, which aids in the greenhouse effect. At that point, more of the previously mentioned super greenhouse gases come into play, and heating the atmosphere further. We could try and de-orbit phobos and deimos, but that will probably do more damage than good.

Still waiting on that volume of subterranian liquid mars water.

[Seret]

As Mars heats up

Your optimism knows no bounds.

[SargeRho]

Oh, you haven't seen me being optimistic yet. And apparently don't know what talking hypothetically is.

Edited August 24, 2013 by SargeRho

[Seret]

Oh, you haven't seen me being optimistic yet.

Ok, what do you think about the chances of splitting Jupiter and wearing it as snow shoes? Sounds plausible, right?