Alarming article from Polygon (let's be good to our devs, okay?)

[KevinTMC]

The nice thing about the Internet is that it makes it so easy to find and contact and communicate with people.

The problem with the Internet is that it makes it so easy to find and contact and communicate with people.

Plague of game dev harassment erodes industry, spurs support groups

We've got an awesome game here, and a great team of developers. While constructive and precise criticism is always in order--we are all alpha/beta testers after all--we should also make an effort to be supportive, to be good to HarvesteR & co.

Because toxic communities (even smallish bands of toxic users within communities) do kill games and drive developers out of the industry.

[annallia]

I agree, though there is nothing wrong with voicing concerns over changes or pointing out flaws. Its not what you say, its how you say it. There is no reason to say something like "Oh you made this change that I don't like so I am going to blow up your HQ!" Just say you don't like whatever change it is you are upset about.

[Accelerando]

I agree, though there is nothing wrong with voicing concerns over changes or pointing out flaws. Its not what you say, its how you say it.

No, it's definitely about what you say. I agree with the rest of your post, but I don't think that's a good way to summarize it. A death threat, outright insult, putting people down etc, is definitely not just a shade of how people voice their concerns; it is quite different.

[KevinTMC]

As I said, constructive criticism is always in order. As early-access players, it's kind of our job, even.

Also, lest anyone mistake my intent here--I'm not calling anyone out with this article. The KSP forums are a great place, and I'm proud of the userbase. This is not a "hey...stop it!" post; but rather a "whoa! let's be sure we never go anywhere near there" post.

[Accelerando]

I'm not very proud of the userbase myself, and I'd argue that there's good reason for a "hey... stop it!" post. There are plenty of kind enough people and smart cookies, yes, but there is also plenty of outrage, buried resentment, and general insecurity to go around. The explosion of "WHAT THE **** SQUAD" sentiment with regards to SAS not long ago was at least a decent example; to say nothing of MechJeb debates, animosity toward the userbases of other, ostensibly less "nice" or "smart" communities like those who enjoy the Call of Duty franchise or the Minecraft forum, animosity surrounding fan threads, etc...

[ASnogarD]

90% of this stuff the article is about isnt even criticism or even from fans, its just some foul little coward who can only get some attention from behind his moms apron remotely accessing his sisters PC while hiding the ip behind privacy protocols and virtual private networks, this ... thing is only capable of this type of attention because it feels secure and safe from any possible counter.

Most of it has nothing to do with the actual game, or industry even its just a attention seeking cretin with no life or reason to exist... these things attach to any media focused scene or event and spew out their rubbish in hopes of sparking something to interest them, to focus attention on themselves.

... half the problem is they do get attention, they get reactions, they get what they crave and so they continue. The other half is the media which happily reports everything and watches for the inevitable fall out, so they can report more stuff.

[Diche Bach]

Wow, that is a very alarming article. Thanks for posting it.

Yeah, totally agree lets not go there at all!

Death threats, vitriol, insults, disrespect, and general overreaction are really _never_ justified or meritorious. That really sucks that it literally is causing some devs to cancel games and stop working in the industry

[DisarmingBaton5]

whoa! let's be sure we never go anywhere near there

^^This. To everyone who exploded at the new ASAS (and SAS), and the guy who made that post about KSP development becoming "too slow," chill out. It's a game. Not only that, but also keep in mind that we are playing an alpha game. It will not be perfect, or even close to perfect.

[KevinTMC]

Yes, there are times when folks on these forums have to be told to chill out. It's not a perfect place and never will be; but it's better than most places on the Internet, that's for sure.

Also, those of us who believe in civility have a duty to consistently model the behavior we advocate. That includes not complaining too much about the fact that other users, in our view, complain too much. (A tricky business, I know!)

Edited August 22, 2013 by KevinTMC

[regex]

To everyone who exploded at the new ASAS (and SAS)

Can you provide some examples of people who "exploded" about it? There was plenty of criticism and discussion of bugs versus the advertised feature, yes, but I don't recall any outright explosive comments, beyond maybe the one or two people that even those of us who are completely unsatisfied with the new system think are nuts (and likely got a ban or warning).

[Cartz]

I somehow doubt that KSP attracts the kind of community that exhibits this type of behaviour. I feel like this community is a little more mature and patient than some of the communities that were the topic of that article.

I actually was affected by some of the topics in that story (pre-ordered Dragon Age 2: Cut and paste edition and Simcity). However my solution wasn't to hurl obscenities at the developers, it was to in the case of Dragon Age, suck it up and play through what I purchased, and in the case of Simcity, issue a chargeback to my CC.

I think the one part of this story that didn't get discussed that needs to be discussed is that game developers can't treat their clients like spoonges to be squeezed dry and then discarded. When the entire Simcity debacle was going on, and I was pursuing my refund, some of the communications that came from Lucy Bradshaw and the rest at EA were so insulting to my intelligence that my blood definitely boiled. Now I didn't act on it, but I will admit I was mad at being treated like a moron. They knew that game was incomplete, fundamentally broken, shipped it as such and then continuted shilling it like some triple A title with just a few launch issues. They completely ignored (at least publically) the multitude of complaints, then tried to buy off peoples silence with an offer of a free game from a pretty thin catalog of last years titles.

If she had just come out and said 'we **** the bed, we're sorry, we will make this right' it would have been ok. That apology was far too long in coming.

Whoa, sorta went on a rant there. Anyways, I think my point was that gamers can't treat devs like whipping boys, and devs shouldn't treat gamers like morons.

[Diche Bach]

I somehow doubt that KSP attracts the kind of community that exhibits this type of behaviour. I feel like this community is a little more mature and patient than some of the communities that were the topic of that article.

I actually was affected by some of the topics in that story (pre-ordered Dragon Age 2: Cut and paste edition and Simcity). However my solution wasn't to hurl obscenities at the developers, it was to in the case of Dragon Age, suck it up and play through what I purchased, and in the case of Simcity, issue a chargeback to my CC.

I think the one part of this story that didn't get discussed that needs to be discussed is that game developers can't treat their clients like spoonges to be squeezed dry and then discarded. When the entire Simcity debacle was going on, and I was pursuing my refund, some of the communications that came from Lucy Bradshaw and the rest at EA were so insulting to my intelligence that my blood definitely boiled. Now I didn't act on it, but I will admit I was mad at being treated like a moron. They knew that game was incomplete, fundamentally broken, shipped it as such and then continuted shilling it like some triple A title with just a few launch issues. They completely ignored (at least publically) the multitude of complaints, then tried to buy off peoples silence with an offer of a free game from a pretty thin catalog of last years titles.

If she had just come out and said 'we **** the bed, we're sorry, we will make this right' it would have been ok. That apology was far too long in coming.

Whoa, sorta went on a rant there. Anyways, I think my point was that gamers can't treat devs like whipping boys, and devs shouldn't treat gamers like morons.

Don't want to say that I "disagree" with you because your basic point that gamers and devs both have ethical and social obligations to one another is certainly true. But at the same time, there are some underlying points that you are making that I'm not entirely sure about, even not comfortable with.

For a legal standpoint, a computer game is an interactive book/record. It is a form of intellectual property that a developer/publisher makes available for the public to use for their entertainment or education by selling EULAs (end user license agreements for those who are unfamiliar). As I understand it, EULAs are also what you are buying when you purchase a CD, digital record, book other type of computer application or intellectual property.

Lets say you buy a book, a non-fiction technical book on spacecraft design. The book is not a 'design manual' but more of an historical overview. You read it and find errors in it; errors which if committed into designs could lead to malfunctions, and harm.

Do you have a basis to cancel your payment for the book?

Or take a different example, a statistics textbook that has some errors in it? You teach a class with this book and the errors lead to a terrible class and bad teaching evaluations? Does the user have some legal recourse against the publisher or writer?

How about a record you buy that has some songs that just plain 'sound bad (to you) or where you can objectively point to some 'flaw' in the production of some songs? Justified to ask for your money back?

Lastly, a fiction book that you just plain disagree with for whatever personal, political or ideological reasons. Sufficient justification to ask for your money back?

I don't have the answers to these questions, and in truth as far as I can tell, we are largely in uncharted territory when it comes to these sorts of things. For the most part, publishers of these myriad sorts of intellectual property seem (by and large) to try to adhere to ethical and conscientious guidelines that reflect the spirit of their enterprise rather than simply some legally binding specifics. For example, patches for computer games; it is amazing really that so many developers and publishers spend so much time and effort to try to correct the errors that exist in their initial releases. Perhaps they are still not achieving the standards of some other industries. For example I have no idea whether publishers of say, engineering textbooks are obsessed with making sure they have zero errors.

All this to say: lets be reasonable about what we expect game developers to provide us with for the cost of a visit to a cinema and a cheap dinner for two.

[Levelord]

^^This. To everyone who exploded at the new ASAS (and SAS), and the guy who made that post about KSP development becoming "too slow," chill out. It's a game. Not only that, but also keep in mind that we are playing an alpha game. It will not be perfect, or even close to perfect.

This post is full of factually incorrect statements that I'm unsure if you're saying it deliberately to mislead people, or if you are truly ignorant about what you just said.

[Cartz]

...

Lets say you buy a book, a non-fiction technical book on spacecraft design. The book is not a 'design manual' but more of an historical overview. You read it and find errors in it; errors which if committed into designs could lead to malfunctions, and harm.

Do you have a basis to cancel your payment for the book?

...

All this to say: lets be reasonable about what we expect game developers to provide us with for the cost of a visit to a cinema and a cheap dinner for two.

I'd say in a lot of your examples you're discussing the content of a functioning product. And that's why in my example, Dragon Age, I just ate the cost without saying a word. The game functioned, it delivered the experience it promised, it just wasn't what I wanted. It sounded bad to me, in your words.

With Simcity though it was different, the game flat out didn't work for a week, like, I can't even play it. (I.E I can't even open the book because the binding agent used on the spine glued the pages together) Then when I DO get in, I find that the entertainment I'm supposed to derive from it is so broken from its actual intent that it's unusable (i.e. exposing the pages to air caused the book to fade to the point I couldn't read many of the words) I think in cases like that, you DO deserve a refund. Its not like I didn't like the songs on the CD, its like I bought a Music CD, that was advertised as a music CD, it didn't play for 2 weeks and when it did I find out I've recieved a children's book on tape.

That's sort of off topic in any event. My point was really about how the people in charge of that release completely ignored the very legitimate and glaringly obvious problems with their product. As a consumer, I felt as if they were thumbing their noses at me saying 'haha we got your money, so now we're just gonna give you the run around until you go away'.

In the end, if behaviour like that is tolerated amongst developers and publishers, then we can't be overly shocked if some of our more Cro-magnon gamer brethern express their displeasure in ways that seem natural to them.

Also, with your well thought out post, I feel that you've somewhat proven my main point, which is that KSP players are likely a different breed when it comes to this... You think this type of intelligent discussion is going on in the CoD forums?

[regex]

On a positive note, this is my take-away from this article regarding the KSP community:

"I could go on and on about this, but I'm just going to consider one example: the word 'noob.' If you decide to take up almost any other hobby in the world, you can find beginning classes teaching you how to do it. If you want to knit, you can go to a yarn store and meet fellow knitters who will help you get the basics. If you want to play basketball, you can join a rec center or community league at a beginner level. And generally, the people already involved in those hobbies are thrilled to have someone with whom they can share their passion. But if you want to get started as a gamer, you get told, 'go home noob,' because people in this hobby hate newcomers so much they turned the word itself into an insult. How are we supposed to thrive as an industry if we are actively hostile to growing our audience?"

I rarely see the word "noob", "nub", "n00b", etc... around here. We seem to love new people and their accomplishments, and actively encourage them to continue their pursuits, perhaps because this is a game that encourages exploration, invention, and learning from failure.

[KevinTMC]

I rarely see the word "noob", "nub", "n00b", etc... around here. We seem to love new people and their accomplishments, and actively encourage them to continue their pursuits, perhaps because this is a game that encourages exploration, invention, and learning from failure.

That jumped out at me too.

Part of it's that KSP is single-player, so a new player's explosive failures aren't threatening the success of anyone else's missions. But a larger part of it is that there are many knowledgeable and helpful people here who are eager to see others learn and happy to offer help...and that's done much to define the basic tone for the forums.

[Wait- Was That Important?]

I'm incredibly happy we have such a devoted development team for KSP and a large, involved fan following. I know that sometimes leads to discussions about development exploding and, to be honest, the KSP forums do have a tendency to fight over little things (comparing it to 5-6 game forums I've been a part of in my life) but for the most part I think the people have been fair to the devs. Any development-inspired hatred from the players is usually directed towards other players.

[Cartz]

On a positive note, this is my take-away from this article regarding the KSP community:

/snip

I rarely see the word "noob", "nub", "n00b", etc... around here. We seem to love new people and their accomplishments, and actively encourage them to continue their pursuits, perhaps because this is a game that encourages exploration, invention, and learning from failure.

Playing the devil's advocate, is that not perhaps the fault of the game developer as well? In your snipped quote, your source states intelligent ways for beginners to go about joining beginner classes, beginner leagues and instruction tailored for beginners.

In the gaming world, a game often has a 'quick match' and a 'server browser', wherein the 'quick match' fires you into a random server anyhow. There is no consideration made for skill levels of the players involved. Players of all skill levels are thrown into the mix together.

Imagine if you took the worlds entire population of a sport and more or less randomly selected two teams from that entire population and asked them to compete. That wouldn't be fun for everyone on those teams. The beginners would get manhandled, the intermediates would get frustrated with the beginners and at the same time frustrate the experts. I can see by the end of a few games, how the intermediates and experts would dread getting the beginner players on their team, and might come up with derogatory terms for them.

If as much effort was put into effective matchmaking as was put into say, weapon skins or hats, a lot of this prejudice would go away.

[roosterr]

I am a web developer. The public at large, even gamers, have no idea how time consuming and nerve-racking software development can be. You really put your heart and soul into not only the software, but the vision that drives its development. A developer works all day (and often night) to create something that appears magical. Every iteration of the software will reduce bugs, but seems to create others as it grows. This is true even for the best and the brightest out there. There are just too many variables (literally) that can interfere with the software you are creating.

Even though I sit here and run (execute) the software I have created up, down, sideways, etc., and think I have seen every scenario to possibly generate a bug. Usually no less than a day after launch, an end user will discover a bug that never presented itself during development. Often a result of a different platform environment than the developer.

Therefore the developer should not be the the person testing the software. Since they built it, they know every button to be pushed to make it work. We need to leave testing to those that have never seen the software and have no idea how to use it in the present.

My point overall is that WE are the alpha/beta testers and need to do the developers a service. Sure we "paid" (EXTREMELY cheap entertainment) for the game but with the understanding that the software is not finished.

Being on the other side of the fence at work, it is actually somewhat painful when you have put a LOT of effort into a project that does amazing things, and when one relatively small bug is discovered the users will claim your software sucks, you suck, etc. It ruins my day and dissuades me from providing services to the people that complain about a petty issue that can be easily and quickly resolved. Even if I figure out the problem and fix it the same day, some users are already skeptical and now want it to break so they have an avenue to complain.

And in my case, people WANT the software to break. I work in an office. If the software breaks, or network goes down, they are off the hook to work and get to sit around and drink coffee, and talk about how crappy things are. It makes them feel better IMO.

Dont get me wrong though, the majority of people are appreciative of the work we do. It is the few rotten apples that spoil the bunch, and it really brings us down mentally and even physically.

So to wrap up my rant: hug your local software developer, they want to do good. We DO want to know about the bugs (but hope for none). If you are not satisfied with the software, remember to appreciate the great things it does and present the bad parts in a productive light so it can get fixed. Otherwise your programmer may not show up for work the next day.

THANK YOU SQUAD for years of a few little bugs

Edited August 22, 2013 by roosterr

[joppiesaus]

It's not just about to be good to our developers,

It's about be good to everyone.

This is a big problem on the internet for some people.

You don't just turn of your powers computer when you see bad words about you.(sorta force, )

[Diche Bach]

I'd say in a lot of your examples you're discussing the content of a functioning product. And that's why in my example, Dragon Age, I just ate the cost . . .

With Simcity though it was different, the game flat out didn't work for a week . . .

Yep excellent points. Take home message being: we users need to be reasonable about what we expect. For example, acknowledging that sometimes, even if we hate a game, if it is 'functioning' we are really not justified to be livid about having been ripped off and it is perhaps better to just 'let it go'.

My personal examples of this experience are few and far between, but I think they must happen to all of us gamers from time to time. I bought Call of Cthulu: Dark Corners of the Earth: raindrops cause a graphical glitch because of a problem with my video, and moreover I just don't really like the gameplay. Meh, there's $10 or $15 I wasted. Just teaches me to continue to be discerning in my game purchases.

However, as you point out, there is also a 'threshold' at which we are being ripped off, and it sounds like the SimCity thing was a good example of that. Holding publishers and developers accountable for a functioning product, and not patronizing them with future business is not just a reasonable 'right' but a good practice for us consumers in this instance.

[Boris_T_Roach]

Hi all

First things first, I like KSP.... epecially to the point of playing it way too much(blames it on a 3 month layoff due to illness), but I think it has flaws... and bugs

But if you think the devs will take any notice of a typical "flamebait" posting... well you're in for a shock.

Constructive criticism works best, especially if its posted with a solution to the problem.

And thats the message we should hammer home to our kids.... be nice to other people on line, respect the other person's view (even if it is wrong) and you are not anonymous, as the admin team in a team fortress 2 server proved out when some stupid person decided to use a child pron spray tag.

He had to then explain to mummy and daddy exactly why the ISP cut them off, and what evidence they had presented to them by the TF2 server admins (steam ID, IP address, server logs, in game screenshot with ID tag),

As for n00b abuse..... always remember as you are typing those letters, that you were new to the game once and needed help in judging which end pointed towards space and which end had the rocket engine on( change that scenario for any games related one you can think of)

Anyways.... I cant belive the mods here would let an all out flame war begin, let alone fester on, or that KSP players would resort to flaming the devs because their favourite part got nerfed a bit*

Boris

* I could always be wrong though....

[regex]

Playing the devil's advocate, is that not perhaps the fault of the game developer as well? In your snipped quote, your source states intelligent ways for beginners to go about joining beginner classes, beginner leagues and instruction tailored for beginners.

Certainly, but isn't it also your duty as a player in a competitive game to help beginners learn the ropes, point them to places where they can learn the ropes, and generally be supportive in their efforts to become competitive on your level so that you have competent competition? Calling them a "nub" is downright counterproductive.

So to wrap up my rant: hug your local software developer, they want to do good.

I hugged myself, thanks. (E: I'm wrapping my head around a generic paginator right now, so I needed the hug)

It's not just about to be good to our developers,

It's about be good to everyone.

This is a big problem on the internet for some people.

You don't just turn of your powers computer when you see bad words about you.(sorta force, )

Truth.

Edited August 22, 2013 by regex

[DChurchill]

I hugged myself, thanks.

Stop that.

[roosterr]

Quote Originally Posted by regex View Post

I hugged myself, thanks.

Stop that.

LOL!