Alarming article from Polygon (let's be good to our devs, okay?)

[regex]

You're mostly right here. I almost have quit using the game. I barely play it anymore because I know exactly what's going to happen. I'll get frustrated by incomplete features that have been incomplete for a very long time, with multiple requests over that time period to actually sort them out that haven't been heeded. - Rocket wobble is a great example, and Unity engine and Development Asymptotes a poor excuse. 2.5m parts have been around for a long time and still are very poor. Extra rigidbody connections, which are placed at a spacing determined by the difference in mass of the two parts could solve this. See? A possible solution!

Or how about a lot of talk about how we could stick a Kerbal on SRB, even an endorsed comic showing it so - when in actuality we can't without having some way of spawning the Kerbal first, as apparently seats aren't crewable! Look at it this way - Assign Kerbal to seat, seat starts with the Kerbal's data (this can be done with ANY part at all, I have made seats able to do this part) and then the seat during physics loading spawns a new part, which is the Kerbal. They should have all the code they need available to do that in their hands, very quickly - same with the previous suggestion.

Both have had quite a few requests floating around to be done and I know Devs have had contact with both. Why has there not even been acknowledgement of these and other problems? Its always about the next big feature. I've only heard of "fixing ASAS" for updates on previous updates, but that isn't the best solution. people are asking for options to have BOTH the old ASAS and new SAS. Listening to that would save time they can put into solving more issues.

Regarding all of these issues, what if it is in the developer's vision of the game that they are working as intended? Rocket wobble is handled through the use of strategically placed struts. Command chairs not being able to be crewed on launch could be an intended feature (I don't know why, but just for the sake of argument). The new SAS could be their intended vision of how SAS will work, with the old being superseded and eventually removed. Would the short answer "Working as intended" satisfy you? If not, why?

Edited August 22, 2013 by regex
typo

[TouhouTorpedo]

Sorry, wasn't trying to Troll you or anything. Just wanting to point out that there is an excess of communication going on. Again, maybe not to what you feel is important. I'm not neck deep in the code, thank freaking god, as a current developer type as you are. Hehe, I gave that up most likely before you were born. I hope that passion is maybe being poured into a mod or something we can use? hint hint, nudge nudge... Maybe a mod or workaround for the perceived problems you are having with the game?

You never know... you could be brought on to the team along with past mod developers and then we can deluge you with friendly... suggestions lol.

I actually have been working on a solution to seats, but its a serious back-door workaround that isn't all that reliable, and when I get home from work I generally don't find the time to work on it. It basically does what I mentioned above by using the spawnEVA function for hatches and BoardSeat function for seats, but can only be done once physics is active, and doesn't really work if theres a roof in the way. If I had the source, I'd just chop the two functions together and solve this within a day easily. But - this isn't my job. Like someone said, I'd like to play the game to relax.

I don't hate Squad, and I don't hate KSP, so I hope people don't misunderstand me here. Its a great game concept and some of Squads early design decisions made for a very moddable game, massively expanding the potential. I just wish they'd fix established stock features before moving forward. Modders continually make new content so theres no end of that. Proper fixes to inbuilt game functions can only be done by those with the source - either people who've sucessfully (and according to the EULA, illegally) reversed the code obfuscation, or the Devs themselves.

What I'm trying to do is provide some constructive criticism here. If addressed, I can't see there being any negatives. If people don't want wobblefix? option in the SFS to enable/disable it.

and if this post is addressed, add shortcut keys to the Tracking station UI. its painful to use right now with three clicks minimum to do anything, even recover debris.

Regarding all of these issues, what if it is in the developer's vision of the game that they are working as intended? Rocket wobble is handled through the use of strategically placed struts. Command chairs not being able to be crewed on launch could be an intended feature (I don't know why, but just for the sake of argument). The new SAS could be their intended vision of how SAS will work, with the old being superseded and eventually removed. Would the short answer "Working as intended" satisfy you? If not, why?

Its not just an issue of "if it works for me" I know people interested in this game, at least three - who have not purchased it because they are aware of the games direction and its un-addressed problems. I have been encouraging the games purchase to them - despite how much it annoys me to play at times, there are times I enjoy it. Despite that, they haven't. I think the direction game development has been starting to go toward is hurting itself.

Edited August 22, 2013 by TouhouTorpedo

[SpaceHole]

They do not have a fairly large development team, they are Indie/small. And it would be irresponsible to let tell us if an issue will be resolved, because they dont know. Likely issues will be resolved, but it could take a month or a year, they dont know until they start digging and bat around solutions internally. The layman would not understand to the technical solutions if offered anyway.

You can call us "User's" or "X-Testers", or any label you feel comfortable with. But it does not change the fact that we all paid a very small amount of money for a product that was "under heavy development". The payment model is worthwhile for us and the developers alike. If something really gets under your skin, you have every right to quit using the product that you well knew was not completed and had inherent risks of bugs.

Some people seem to not value money anymore it seems?

Since when are 22 Euros a small amount of money? Especialyl in comparison to what AAA-Title devlelopment costs in relation with their release-price?

Also no we are definitly not alpha-testers. Since alpha-testers are people that dont pay for a product and work for free.

We on the other hand paid for a game in production and in a bigger bigture for the game-idea that has been presented and promised us consumers.

It will probably take some time but i didnt pay for an alpha i paid for a full product in the future in advance.

But i guess this just shows the young community on this board. Once you have to actually earn money yourself you will hopefully value it more.

This sound a lot like my rant a few pages back on this thread (I develop with C# BTW ). You get it!

I get tired of people that paid their $23 or less and now believe that SQUAD owes them a lifetime of flawless entertainment bliss.

So if a car-salesman sells you a car (which most of the time will have to be built and not exist when you pay for it) is not obliged to deliver you the working car you paid for later on?

Edited August 22, 2013 by SpaceHole

[esinohio]

Hmmm well..still... you outed yourself as a dev. Now we must hunt you and squeeze you for code..... <whip crack> <evil laugh>.. oops sorry, the managerial type emerged there. Seriously though have some faith. While your concerns might have not matriculated to the top of the to do list I'm sure they will get things sorted out. I so wish we could crack a beer right now and talk shop lol

[regex]

Its not just an issue of "if it works for me" I know people interested in this game, at least three - who have not purchased it because they are aware of the games direction and its un-addressed problems.

I reiterate, what if your "un-addressed problems" aren't actually problems in the eyes of the devs, but instead working as intended? Would you take that as an answer?

It will probably take some time but i didnt pay for an alpha i paid for a full product in the future in advance.

I advise patience, then. Best you not play what you paid for now, and help with its development by filing reports on any bugs you find, but when it's finished.

But i guess this just shows the young community on this board. Once you have to actually earn money yourself you will hopefully value it more.

No need for insults. Some of us value money just as much as you do, it's just that your perceived value of the product is different than ours.

[SpaceHole]

I advise patience, then. Best you not play what you paid for now, and help with its development by filing reports on any bugs you find, but when it's finished.

Well i am "rather" patient

Yet after playing for a while at least one feature is very important for various reasons:

64bit Support

The thing is i can change the game and make it better by using mods (which are pretty well integrated by the way) but the biggest problem right now is that there are a lot of great mods that have great synergies yet it is not possible to use them since the game will crash when memory usge is too high.

Since there seems to be a DEV in this thread:

I already read about a 64bit version for Linux with a few issues

- are you already working on a 64bit windows version of the game?

- is it that hard to implement?

- it hopefully is a short term goal - not long term?

On Mod-Ram-Usage:

- would there may be a way to stop unused components of mods from flooding RAM?

- at least from my point of view it seems as if mods will "enlarge" the game no matter if they are actually used or not?

- how about trying to integrate something like the mod-manager and integrating a warning that will warn users when too many mods are used?

No need for insults. Some of us value money just as much as you do, it's just that your perceived value of the product is different than ours.

Well sorry for beeing a bit harsh here but lately the DLC madness (horse-armor) etc. made me a bit upset since in the long run everyone will loose (for example - 1 DLC in one game may be cheap - but what if at some point you have to buy multiple DLC for multiple games - it adds up pretty quickly).

Edited August 22, 2013 by SpaceHole

[KevinTMC]

Some people seem to not value money anymore it seems?

Since when are 22 Euros a small amount of money? Especialyl in comparison to what AAA-Title devlelopment costs in relation with their release-price?

All I know is, I've gotten 14 months (and counting) of outstanding entertainment and edification out of a product I paid less than $20 for.

I'm not wealthy--I live on a rather tight budget in fact--but KSP has been an outstanding bargain for me. Maybe, in theory, I've paid for a future finished product, and in that sense I haven't yet gotten my money's worth; but in practice, I can't bring myself to care.

Now I'm eager to see KSP become the best product it can be. I wouldn't tell anyone to just get over their gameplay gripes (most of which I share, and most of which I trust will be fixed eventually--if not nearly as soon as I would wish for, if my wishing were enough). But it wouldn't occur to me in a million years to play the "I paid good money for this!" card when something breaks or displeases me. To my mind, I have already gotten my money's worth, many many times over.

Edited August 22, 2013 by KevinTMC

[Anton P. Nym]

Since when are 22 Euros a small amount of money? Especialyl in comparison to what AAA-Title devlelopment costs in relation with their release-price?

Well, here in Canada $23 isn't enough for a movie night for two... so my hundred+ hours of KSP would appear to be a good investment from that perspective. For comparison AAA-titles run between $40-60 retail here.

But i guess this just shows the young community on this board. Once you have to actually earn money yourself you will hopefully value it more.

I'm in my 40s and gainfully employed. I think the game in its' current state is easily worth the $15 I spent on the Steam sale.

-- Steve

[dr_jt]

I worked with a guy that did mods for another game. He ran a site for his mods and was an all around great guy. He did it because he loved the game and he really wanted to please the users. What he got was a lot of hate, insults and all around a-hole attitudes. It got to the point that one user was threatening him with arrest or harm if he did start to do as that person said as far as mods were concerned. The police recommended that he stop all activity with the game and remove all email addresses associated with him. Last time I talked to him he was playing KSP and really wanted to get into doing mods but, he is afraid it will turn out the same.

[SpaceHole]

Well, here in Canada $23 isn't enough for a movie night for two... so my hundred+ hours of KSP would appear to be a good investment from that perspective. For comparison AAA-titles run between $40-60 retail here.

I'm in my 40s and gainfully employed. I think the game in its' current state is easily worth the $15 I spent on the Steam sale.

-- Steve

Which is why i and many people that i know stopped going to the cinema - since it has become ridiculously expensive - combined with a decline in equipment. (IMAX 3D almost costs 15 Euros for one ticket where i live ...)

Still i wanted to post to the poster above still the argument is the same. Trying to measure the value of things soley due to the time spent playing it is not a good way to generate a price.

How much money is a paperweight worth - u can use it a lifetime and even inherit it to the next generations?

How much money is World of Warcraft worth - considering the ammount of hours some people play this game?

Even if the game might is worth it - fact is everyone paid for the full game - beforehand. Which is why its called "Early Acceess Game" - so you paid for the full game and early access to the game in heavy development.

[dr_jt]

Well, here in Canada $23 isn't enough for a movie night for two... so my hundred+ hours of KSP would appear to be a good investment from that perspective. For comparison AAA-titles run between $40-60 retail here.

I'm in my 40s and gainfully employed. I think the game in its' current state is easily worth the $15 I spent on the Steam sale.

-- Steve

I spent 23 dollars US and I've gotten a lot of entertainment value out of that 23 dollars. I would cost me twice that for a movie, dinner out or a single BR movie. All of which gives me only a couple of hours or so of diversion. KSP has given me many more hours for what amounts to cents per hour. Besides, my wife always knows where I am.

[SpaceHole]

I worked with a guy that did mods for another game. He ran a site for his mods and was an all around great guy. He did it because he loved the game and he really wanted to please the users. What he got was a lot of hate, insults and all around a-hole attitudes. It got to the point that one user was threatening him with arrest or harm if he did start to do as that person said as far as mods were concerned. The police recommended that he stop all activity with the game and remove all email addresses associated with him. Last time I talked to him he was playing KSP and really wanted to get into doing mods but, he is afraid it will turn out the same.

I dont see the problem? He can start making mods and simply us a internet-username. How should anyone threaten him when he wont reveal his personal data?

Also as i said before - threatening someone over the internet is the same as doing so in "real live" - go to the police - then to a lawyer not ot mention that your story sounds lke some odd 12year old threatened him.

I also did create mods for big games some time ago. Got a lot of emails from various people. Some people liked my mod - dome didnt. I released it under a username i created for this occasion. Never had any problems. I actually only communicated with "my playerbase" in the forums where i released the mod.

Anyhow i know it shouldnt be this way and people should be way more civilized yet you can actually stop most of the people by not giving them ways to actually engage you. If they know neither your real name nor have any way of contacting you besides a internet-forum chances are they wont do much.

Edited August 22, 2013 by SpaceHole

[esinohio]

Noooo!!! Bring him here. Immerse him in the awesomeness that is this community. Seriously, the artistry abounding here is just mind boggling. Just go peek through the mod forums here, its oozing helpful people giving constructive criticism and glowing praise. And when he gets the KSP bug, and you know he will, I have a few ideas..... insert shameless begging here....

[TouhouTorpedo]

Since there seems to be a DEV in this thread:

Sadly I think you're mistaken - A dev hasn't posted here yet far as I'm aware. If you were talking about me, I'm a modder, not a dev. The 64 bit problem is one I don't know about. But since all the parts have to be loaded for VAB/SPH scenes, it could probably do with looking at some time. Thats a porting problem though to another Unity version as far as I'm aware, so a pretty big undertaking. (so we'd be looking at another KSP 0.18.3/ 0.18.4) if that were to happen.

Honestly though, you really must be running a lot of mods to make this happen.

for "got my moneys worth" argument - remember there are still people buying and funding this games development - and still more people who would still buy this and fund its development, if they had the confidence in its future. The games continual development (and its community for that matter who support it) are its biggest PR pluses (which will lead to sales of course!). New features is great, but listen to the feedback of the community and update those new features on the next update based on the feedback, to provide the strongest basis for the next features. I've even had one of the previous developers agree with me on this. Honestly, using the Suggestions and Bug Report forum just feels like shouting at a brick wall.

I know Harv has a vision for KSP. I'm not trying to say don't follow it (I haven't said don't do career mode, have I?) but he could really benefit the users, Squad, and potential future users by setting up a loop of communication between the suggestions forum and the relevant devs, regarding all new feature updates and what comes up as important to fix. Because even if this exists right now, there doesn't seem to be any evidence for it. How about the weekly having a section on previous version feedback and intended changes based upon that? Because for that to occur, that'd mean the system is in place, or would have to be created to do so.

[Boris_T_Roach]

and if this post is addressed, add shortcut keys to the Tracking station UI. its painful to use right now with three clicks minimum to do anything, even recover debris.

And add a goto tracking station option in the menu when the ESC key is pressed.... takes forever to get there via the space center

Boris

<<currently building a huge SEKI reciever to be moved into solar orbit when its A. complete and B. when I remember to activate all 3 Nervas instead of 2....

[TouhouTorpedo]

And add a goto tracking station option in the menu when the ESC key is pressed.... takes forever to get there via the space center

A good point there. One I have actually found myself wanting as well at times, but only because the vessel swapping inflight is extremely clunky. Occasional not working at all "Switch to" can be buggy when a lot of vessels are around. Still yes, that could be a solution. That or a dropdown button in the map view for stock "haystack" mod.

[zekes]

Honestly, let's not let a few bad apples ruin this beautiful bunch of KSP. I love the devs, and I admire them that they took nothing and turned it into an amazing game.

Thnaky you, Devs. We all love you here

[Tiron]

This is what they ought to be kicking people off the internet permanently for, instead of 'Piracy'. Although judging by the BBC, in the UK at least there's a growing number of cases of people, even minors, being prosecuted for threatening statements made online.

That's the real problem with this. Not that people do it, but that they get away with it. If you said things like that anywhere but on the internet you'd be having a conversation with the Police in a big hurry. That particular problem isn't unique to harassment either: All sorts of crimes committed online are treated as being much more minor and less real than their offline equivalents, and Harassment is just the tip of the iceberg.

Make it so there's real consequences, and it'll be a lot less of a problem.

[SpaceHole]

Honestly though, you really must be running a lot of mods to make this happen.

I use:

Universe Replacer

KAS-Mod (Kerbal Attachment System)

KW-Rocketry

B9 Aerospace-Pack

KSPX Parts

NovaPunch2

Kosmos SSPP

ENB

Is this considered a lot? KSP now uses almost 3.6 GB of ram.

[TouhouTorpedo]

I use:

Universe Replacer

KAS-Mod (Kerbal Attachment System)

KW-Rocketry

B9 Aerospace-Pack

KSPX Parts

NovaPunch2

Kosmos SSPP

ENB

Is this considered a lot? KSP now uses almost 3.6 GB of ram.

Yeah, these would use a lot. Big parts packs are very ram heavy. I don't know what ENB is, but the only thing I can see there that isn't a parts pack is Universe Replacer and KAS. I don't know what effect on RAM Universe Replacer would have, but its likely to be very dependant on what you are replacing those articles with.

[Tiron]

Yeah, these would use a lot. Big parts packs are very ram heavy. I don't know what ENB is, but the only thing I can see there that isn't a parts pack is Universe Replacer and KAS. I don't know what effect on RAM Universe Replacer would have, but its likely to be very dependant on what you are replacing those articles with.

I hope someone's mentioned that the only reason there isn't a 64 bit build already is that they come out unstable due to problems with Unity, which I've heard Squad are working with Unity to correct..

[roosterr]

Some people seem to not value money anymore it seems?

So if a car-salesman sells you a car (which most of the time will have to be built and not exist when you pay for it) is not obliged to deliver you the working car you paid for later on?

The car salesman told us the car could bugged for a while and that he had no idea how the final car would look and guaranteed us nothing.

In this case, the car has exceeded my expectations and I am a happy customer and by far got my $23 worth of fun and then some! I dont know how anyone feels entitled to anything more at this point?

[Apollo13]

Well, lets just say...the Squad developers better do WHAT I say, WHEN I say, and HOW I say. "Cause otherwise, I'll...I'll...I'll...I'll think of something. And believe me, it won't be pretty.

[King Arthur]

Reading that article, I have to admit I hate where humanity is going. Seriously.

[zekes]

Not that people do it, but that they get away with it.

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEExactly! You cant just shout your mouth off and be a respecteble person.