BSC - Two-stage Lander - We have a WINNER!

[Whirligig Girl]

I am very disappointed that Mulbin won. If they packaged Mulbin's lander with the game, do you think anyone could figure out what the heck was going on? I love Mulbin's ships but they are not by any means intuitive or simple. That's what the stock ships should be, not ships that are essentially a shell of an Apollo Lunar Module wrapped around some fuel and an engine.

[Mesklin]

Congrats Mulbin. I see, people like more beatifull and puzzle ships, but not effective ))

Edited September 9, 2013 by Mesklin

[Mulbin]

I think that the wording of the challenge was a bit ambiguous to be honest. Many people, my self included took "stock lander" to mean a lander built purely with stock parts (no mods), it's only when reading the OP more carefully that you realize it actually meant a lander suitable to be included in the game.

Two different meanings of "stock". People voted for my ship because it is 100% stock and they liked it better than the others = "best stock lander". Not because it is suitable for inclusion in squads official files.

Perhaps a more rigid structure to fit what squad would actually want would work better as a competition for this purpose? For instance - Stock lander, no excessive part clipping, under 100 parts

[Mulbin]

To be honest If I'd realised at the start it was for a replacement default lander I'd probably have entered this one...

[Xeldrak]

Well, I allways thought, that the wording straight to the point. After a two-line preamble, the first thing in the first post was:

As you all should know by now, the stock crafts in KSP are horrible for the most part. So I challenge you to come up with a replacement craft.

I spent a whole paragraph on what you should consider when building your craft. Also, while the word "stock" has two meanings, "Better Stock Craft" seems to make sense only with one meaning. I like that the challenge has very few restictions, so that you guys can really show your ideas.

I try to work a lot with different font sizes and pictures to mark the most importat stuff - but I can't help it if noone reads more than the first line.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Xeldrak

[Mulbin]

Hey... don't shoot the messenger.

Nearly half of the voters voted for me which means either...

A. They didn't understand your meaning and just like my craft better than the others.

B. They think my craft is suitable to be a stock craft to be included in the game.

Either way I'm very flattered. I think though it's probably best if I don't enter any more of these, what should be a fun competition has a bit of a nasty atmosphere when the "wrong person" wins. Keep up the good work though, at the very least its a great forum for some really great ship design.

[Xeldrak]

I'm not shooting you.....I'm shooting the guys that do not read past the second line.

I have no problem with you winning, it's a fun challenge and all there is to win is bragging rights, it's not like we are actually voting for new stock craft here.

It's not your fault, that people voted for you and you shouldn't receive any hate for this. The winners are choosen purely by vote and votes sometimes end in strange results - tough luck.

I put quite a lot of effort into these challenges and if people come in here, do not read past the first line and vote for anything without leaving a line, I get the feeling that neither my work nor the work of the guys, that write 500+ words to justify their vote or that considered all the stuff I wrote and built a craft according to it is really appreciated. I think this is simply bad mannered behaviour and has nothing to do with "the wrong person" winning.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Xeldrak

[SkyRender]

There's some pretty interesting social interactions that go on with picking the winner in competitions of this nature. Often the winner seems to be determined not by what people actually feel is best, but by who they think "will" win. It's exacerbated further when everyone casts their votes in turn, as follow-the-leader peer pressure kicks in. I've observed this effect many times; it's a fascinating psychology experiment. Especially when you get a situation where people start "competing" for who wins and vote-bouncing between two candidates. Often the only qualification that counts in sequential on-the-spot voting of this sort is who's in the lead and who's just behind; every other option falls by the wayside as people abandon actual opinions in favor of picking the winner. You get more accurate-to-actual-opinion results in a silent vote, wherein nobody participating in the voting can know what anyone else voting actually chose.

[Xeldrak]

Well, be that as it may,

As you all should know by now, the stock crafts in KSP are horrible for the most part. So I challenge you to come up with a replacement craft.

is now the first line in the new challenge and it's been made bold. So maybe more people will now realize what the challenge is about... Edited September 9, 2013 by Xeldrak

[SkyRender]

The problem has never been one of realization, it's the nature of the vote that trips people up. As I said, public sequential voting has a huge drawback in that it encourages groupthink. Next time you may want to consider only counting votes that get PMed to you. It won't stop the groupthink effect entirely since some will still post their votes or discuss who they're picking privately and invoke the peer pressure effect, but it will encourage more people to be brave enough to say what they actually think instead of trying to "pick the winner".

[astropapi1]

Hey... don't shoot the messenger.

Nearly half of the voters voted for me which means either...

A. They didn't understand your meaning and just like my craft better than the others.

B. They think my craft is suitable to be a stock craft to be included in the game.

Either way I'm very flattered. I think though it's probably best if I don't enter any more of these, what should be a fun competition has a bit of a nasty atmosphere when the "wrong person" wins. Keep up the good work though, at the very least its a great forum for some really great ship design.

Don't take us wrong. I've always loved your ships (and have given you lots of rep), but IMO, that lander isn't the best for a new player. Maybe for us "veterans", but a newb will find it too complicated for a first-time mission.

Most voters just said: "Oh, bootiful ship", and voted for it, without taking in mind what I said above.

Your lander is still my favorite KSP lander.

[Commander Zoom]

Here, IMO, is the critical question which I'm not sure has ever been asked:

Has there been any assurance, or even acknowledgement from the Devs, that the winning craft of this and any other competitions will actually be substituted/added in the game?

The OP seems to proceed from two assumptions:

1. The stock craft are terrible, As Everyone Knows;

2. SQUAD will accept the results of this and any other competitions as binding and implement them in future builds.

[MiniMatt]

Here, IMO, is the critical question which I'm not sure has ever been asked:

Has there been any assurance, or even acknowledgement from the Devs, that the winning craft of this and any other competitions will actually be substituted/added in the game?

The OP seems to proceed from two assumptions:

1. The stock craft are terrible, As Everyone Knows;

2. SQUAD will accept the results of this and any other competitions as binding and implement them in future builds.

No of course not. I say "of course not" but I honestly don't believe for a second that either Xeldrak, any of the competitors, or any of the voters who discussed their thought process considered the results in any way official or binding.

The competition was purely one by the community for the enjoyment and benefit of the community. One could argue that the voting process was therefore unnecessary being, as it is, ultimately pointless, but a voting process provides for a logical thread flow and allows a thread to come to a clean close such that we can move on to other interesting things like Xeldrak's Aires-3a challenge. The true value I, and I believe other competitors and indeed observers, gained from the thread was not a vote count but the detailed discussion on designs, the learning of new tricks, general wonderment at the technical and artistic skills displayed.

It was an intellectual and artistic debate formed around a voting framework. The vote was there to structure the debate, not to bind developers to it's result. Besides, software development rarely benefits from pure democracy

IF any devs stumbled across the thread then I've no doubt they took on board many of the design challenges and ideas discussed and may or may not incorporate some of the concepts discussed when redesigning their stock craft for subsequent KSP versions. But, no, of course they won't be just lifting the vote winner or any of the entries straight into the next version of KSP. For one thing, the next version of KSP is likely to include new features that none of the entries have considered which will allow us to go through this process all over again for 0.22. And 0.23. And 0.24, etc. etc.

Edited September 11, 2013 by MiniMatt

[Xeldrak]

MiniMatt, the OP completely supports everything you wrote.

Actually, Commander Zoom, if you read what I wrote three posts before your post:

... it's a fun challenge and all there is to win is bragging rights, it's not like we are actually voting for new stock craft here.

To invoke a old, german proverb: "He, who can read has a clear advantage."

Edited September 11, 2013 by Xeldrak

[AmpsterMan]

My favorite things about these challenges have been seeing others designs. I wished others discussed the entries with greater depth and critique, but alas, that was a personal wish.

As far as the discussion on voting procedure, I think it was just a philosophical discussion, is all.

I'll bee posting my latest plane in the new thread tonight. Can't wait to player other designs when the voting phase begins

[John FX]

I`m gutted I missed this one. I`ve been working on a two stage lande fo a little while now. These things seem to happen between me looking at the forum and looking again! Is it me or have there been like, 3 of these challenges in the last few weeks? (or have I just been that busy?)

Well, here is my lander, you may as well see it.

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