If Apollo 11 had failed.

[99TheCreator]

I read a very interesting article earlier about the procedure if Apollo 11 had failed. You should read it: http://www.space.com/7011-president-nixon-prepared-apollo-disaster.html Very scary to think that this could have failed, and what would have happened if it did.

[Javster]

Very interesting read! Turns out I already knew about the speech (from a Vsauce video). The Apollo missions were a huge risk to take for the US.

[Moon Goddess]

Armstrong and Aldrin have both spoke of it in the past, saying that no matter what they wouldn't have gone down quietly they would have kept trying to make orbit, fix whatever, till the air ran out.

Collins it was his greatest fear,

"My secret terror for the last six months has been leaving them on the Moon and returning to Earth alone; now I am within minutes of finding out the truth of the matter, If they fail to rise from the surface, or crash back into it, I am not going to commit suicide; I am coming home, forthwith, but I will be a marked man for life and I know it."

He wasn't worried about dying out there, he was worried the other 2 would.

All in all if Apollo 11 had failed we would have just fixed whatever it was, and 12 would have succeeded, I really don't believe that the mindset we were in there a loss of life would have stopped it.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Moon Goddess

[bigdad84]

Makes a person wonder if there would of ever been a mission to bring then home? Even if they're dead...

[lajoswinkler]

Of course not. They would leave them orbiting or lying on the surface.

Didn't they have a suicide pill? I'd never leave on a mission without it.

[EvilotionCR2]

Of course not. They would leave them orbiting or lying on the surface. Didn't they have a suicide pill? I'd never leave on a mission without it.

Oh from where that pill is...

[bigdad84]

If I went on a mission like that, I would not use a suicide pill. I would go walking off in the distance as far as I could.

[Moon Goddess]

Of course not. They would leave them orbiting or lying on the surface.

Didn't they have a suicide pill? I'd never leave on a mission without it.

That's what I was referring to, they had a suicide pill but they said, they would have never used it, no matter what they'd keep trying till the air ran out. Additionally it's very unlikely Mission Control would have sent the order to use the pill, they would have kept coming up with solutions.

[Diche Bach]

This is a somewhat morbid thought but . . . its made me realize: we have yet to have any dead people in space, eh? Everybody has either come back to Earth (dead or alive) or burned up on re-entry. I understand that the remains of the two shuttle disaster astronauts were recovered.

Wow, compared to nautical and aeronautical history, we have yet to really even 'go to sea' so to speak.

[lajoswinkler]

If I went on a mission like that, I would not use a suicide pill. I would go walking off in the distance as far as I could.

No, you wouldn't. If you think you would, wrap a plastic bag around your head and try holding it until you faint. You'll soon start feeling an immense sensation of panic and remove the bag and rethink the whole stupid idea about doing an EVA.

If you were locked in the capsule in an endless void and your air was depleted, you'd chew on that pill like it's pie. Suffering during suffocation is much, much worse than suffering from a designed poison pill.

That's what I was referring to, they had a suicide pill but they said, they would have never used it, no matter what they'd keep trying till the air ran out. Additionally it's very unlikely Mission Control would have sent the order to use the pill, they would have kept coming up with solutions.

They would wait until the air was gone and then, hopeless, they'd eat the pill. That's what would happen. Or they might open the hatch and faint in a few seconds. Or both.

Anyway, there'd be no heroic acts. People faced with horrific death lose their sh*t very fast. All they want is some basic comfort and dignity. What's morbid is what would be the interaction between two people. Would they face back to each other to avoid looking at death? They'd probably cry a lot. Would they hug? Horrible stuff.

Movies teach us fake ideas about heroic acts and sarcasm in the face of death. That's all bull****. In real life people are reduced to their basic behavioral patterns when confronted with imminent, painful death.

[Moon Goddess]

Well, I am only repeating what they said. And I'm not inclined to call them liars, I was taught not to speak ill of the dead, and Buzz is known to punch people

[lajoswinkler]

Calling them liars doesn't make sense. The event didn't happen, so it's impossible to tell whether they're lying or not.

Saying they're talking sh*t is more appropriate and I don't care if Armstrong is dead, honestly. I like the guy a lot, but I don't think he's a supreme being.

[rpayne88]

I saw this in a movie so I'm not sure it is true. Didn't the LEM have a broken switch that almost stranded them? Didn't they fix that with a felt tip pen?

Edited September 4, 2013 by rpayne88
Complying with the fourm rule requireing proper English. Changed a period to a question mark.

[Specialist290]

Anyway, there'd be no heroic acts. People faced with horrific death lose their sh*t very fast.

That might be true for most of humanity, but lest you forget, before Armstrong and Aldrin were astronauts, they were war heroes. Both of them had served as combat pilots in the Korean War and had shot down enemy aircraft in the heat of combat. Armstrong in particular was once hit by enemy fire and nearly shot down, but managed to get his plane back over American lines before he ejected.

The modern military very deliberately conditions its soldiers, sailors, and airmen to be able to act with a cool head in high-pressure environments. Every drill sergeant / instructor is specifically trained to break any bad habits that might cause a new recruit to put himself or his battle buddies at risk and reprogram them with conditioned instruction to the point that he can perform his battle drills literally by reflex.

Movies teach us fake ideas about heroic acts and sarcasm in the face of death. That's all bull****. In real life people are reduced to their basic behavioral patterns when confronted with imminent, painful death.

My counterargument:

Citation: On 31 July 1943, the infantry company of which Pvt. Young was a member, was ordered to make a limited withdrawal from the battle line in order to adjust the battalion's position for the night. At this time, Pvt. Young's platoon was engaged with the enemy in a dense jungle where observation was very limited. The platoon suddenly was pinned down by intense fire from a Japanese machinegun concealed on higher ground only 75 yards away. The initial burst wounded Pvt. Young. As the platoon started to obey the order to withdraw, Pvt. Young called out that he could see the enemy emplacement, whereupon he started creeping toward it. Another burst from the machinegun wounded him the second time. Despite the wounds, he continued his heroic advance, attracting enemy fire and answering with rifle fire. When he was close enough to his objective, he began throwing handgrenades, and while doing so was hit again and killed. Pvt. Young's bold action in closing with this Japanese pillbox and thus diverting its fire, permitted his platoon to disengage itself, without loss, and was responsible for several enemy casualties.

Sergeant First Class Shughart, United States Army, distinguished himself by actions above and beyond the call of duty on 3 October 1993, while serving as a Sniper Team Member, United States Army Special Operations Command with Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia. Sergeant First Class Shughart provided precision sniper fires from the lead helicopter during an assault on a building and at two helicopter crash sites, while subjected to intense automatic weapons and rocket propelled grenade fires. While providing critical suppressive fires at the second crash site, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader learned that ground forces were not immediately available to secure the site. Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader unhesitatingly volunteered to be inserted to protect the four critically wounded personnel, despite being well aware of the growing number of enemy personnel closing in on the site. After their third request to be inserted, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader received permission to perform this volunteer mission. When debris and enemy ground fires at the site caused them to abort the first attempt, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader were inserted one hundred meters south of the crash site. Equipped with only his sniper rifle and a pistol, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader, while under intense fire from the enemy, fought their way through a dense maze of shanties and shacks to reach the critically injured crew members. Sergeant First Class Shughart pulled the pilot and the other crew members from the aircraft, establishing a perimeter which placed him and his fellow sniper in the most vulnerable position. Sergeant First Class Shughart used his long range rifle and side arm to kill an undetermined number of attackers while traveling the perimeter, protecting the downed crew. Sergeant First Class Shughart continued his protective fire until he depleted his ammunition and was fatally wounded. His actions saved the pilot's life. Sergeant First Class Shughart's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest standards of military service and reflect great credit upon him, his unit and the United States Army.

These aren't movie scripts; these are citations from U. S. Army Medal of Honor recipients (both of them posthumous, mind you) for displaying exceptional bravery and dedication to their fellow soldiers under quite possibly some of the most intense circumstance imaginable. I could cite literally thousands more, but I don't have that kind of free time, and I'm sure you don't have the time to read them all anyway. I'll grant you that most of them weren't cracking witty one-liners, but many people to this day owe their lives to others who lived up to "fake ideas of heroic acts."

EDIT: I know these examples in particular focus heavily on the military, but the same principle applies to anyone who puts their lives on the line to get their jobs done or ensure others' safety, such as the firefighters who rush into a burning building that could collapse at any moment in order to save the lives of a few trapped occupants.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Specialist290

[Diche Bach]

I saw this in a movie so I'm not sure it is true. Didn't the LEM have a broken switch that almost stranded them? Didn't they fix that with a felt tip pen.

I read the same thing; not sure though if it is true.

Also agree that, had those guys found themselves in the lethal situation they likely would've kept their cool. Even if they weren't combat veterans, just having been trained military pilots is enough to have given them sufficient basis to keep a clear head.

I've been in a couple situations while caving where I was quite aware that me and/or my buddies very well might die (nearly cut rope, self-rescue after a dislocated shoulder, flood entrapment for 19 hours). I have to say, those incidents were overall less scary than the 'run of the mill' first time experiences with danger, e.g., first time abseiling, first time negotiating a water crawl. The first time I abseiled without a belay was probably the scariest moment of my life, even though I was completely under control and it wasn't actually as dangerous as the later accidents.

I think familiarity with danger and risk, makes anyone able to cope with it. It is when it is unfamiliar or the person hasn't managed to 'habituate' to it that it seems to cause the ungluing effects that you refer to lajoswinkler. Obviously by the time they are on a space craft and heading up, anyone, even someone from a civilian background, is likely to have had enough training and experience to be able to handle things pretty well.

[99TheCreator]

Interesting, I never realized the Apollo 11 astronauts had suicide pills, it must have been very stressful for them to be looking at those pills probably in a case while they were on the moon.

[Temstar]

No there were no suicide pill. Jim Lovell wrote about it in his book about Apollo 13:

Since Apollo 13 many people have asked me, "Did you have suicide pills on board?" We didn't, and I never heard of such a thing in the eleven years I spent as an astronaut and NASA executive.

I did, of course, occasionally think of the possibility that the spacecraft explosion might maroon us in an enormous orbit about the Earth - a sort of perpetual monument to the space program. But Jack Swigert, Fred Haise, and I never talked about that fate during our perilous flight. I guess we were too busy struggling for survival.

It will be easy enough to kill yourself in space painlessly by taking off your helmet.

[lajoswinkler]

That might be true for most of humanity, but lest you forget, before Armstrong and Aldrin were astronauts, they were war heroes. Both of them had served as combat pilots in the Korean War and had shot down enemy aircraft in the heat of combat. Armstrong in particular was once hit by enemy fire and nearly shot down, but managed to get his plane back over American lines before he ejected.

The modern military very deliberately conditions its soldiers, sailors, and airmen to be able to act with a cool head in high-pressure environments. Every drill sergeant / instructor is specifically trained to break any bad habits that might cause a new recruit to put himself or his battle buddies at risk and reprogram them with conditioned instruction to the point that he can perform his battle drills literally by reflex.

My counterargument:

These aren't movie scripts; these are citations from U. S. Army Medal of Honor recipients (both of them posthumous, mind you) for displaying exceptional bravery and dedication to their fellow soldiers under quite possibly some of the most intense circumstance imaginable. I could cite literally thousands more, but I don't have that kind of free time, and I'm sure you don't have the time to read them all anyway. I'll grant you that most of them weren't cracking witty one-liners, but many people to this day owe their lives to others who lived up to "fake ideas of heroic acts."

EDIT: I know these examples in particular focus heavily on the military, but the same principle applies to anyone who puts their lives on the line to get their jobs done or ensure others' safety, such as the firefighters who rush into a burning building that could collapse at any moment in order to save the lives of a few trapped occupants.

That's all cool, but nothing you've described has anything to do with sitting in a can in a black void, knowing you're going to die in terrible agony in a known amount of time, you can't help yourself or your partner, and you've became completely useless. Read my reply to Diche Bach.

Rushing into a building that could collapse is a bad argument. If the building has a slight chance of coming down, then I have no doubt that people would rush inside to save others, because a) they can save someone and if they fail, they can run away.

But if you know that the building will fall and you can't do anything: can't save anyone, you'll die, can't stop the building from falling - trust me, no one in their right mind will enter it. When that terrible attack in NY happened and when firefighters actually learned the other building will fall, nobody went up there. They were running away.

So enough with the fake heroism. I'm talking about inevitable, unavoidable death. Not "risk of death". Death in "t minus". People lose their sh*t. They either start to panic, or they stop being responsive.

Nobody teaches you what to do in such circumstances, except if you're still useful. For example, if you need to sacrifice yourself to do something, you can be dedicated until that point. However if you become useless and you're waiting for that 3 hour tank to run out, that's apples and oranges.

I read the same thing; not sure though if it is true.

Also agree that, had those guys found themselves in the lethal situation they likely would've kept their cool. Even if they weren't combat veterans, just having been trained military pilots is enough to have given them sufficient basis to keep a clear head.

I've been in a couple situations while caving where I was quite aware that me and/or my buddies very well might die (nearly cut rope, self-rescue after a dislocated shoulder, flood entrapment for 19 hours). I have to say, those incidents were overall less scary than the 'run of the mill' first time experiences with danger, e.g., first time abseiling, first time negotiating a water crawl. The first time I abseiled without a belay was probably the scariest moment of my life, even though I was completely under control and it wasn't actually as dangerous as the later accidents.

I think familiarity with danger and risk, makes anyone able to cope with it. It is when it is unfamiliar or the person hasn't managed to 'habituate' to it that it seems to cause the ungluing effects that you refer to lajoswinkler. Obviously by the time they are on a space craft and heading up, anyone, even someone from a civilian background, is likely to have had enough training and experience to be able to handle things pretty well.

Again, having a risk of death is not nearly the same as knowing you'll start gasping for air in an exact calculated time. You can mitigate risks. You can do something, you can try.

Apollo crew was in a position to easily enter the scenario of complete futility. Do you realize the difference? If something had happened, they were in a tin can with limited amount of air and nobody could ever offer a rescue. Only they could've help themselves if something went wrong (Apollo 13), but if everything fails, they'd be faced with inevitable, gruesome death. I'm not talking about the fear of the possibility of getting stranded. I'm talking about human behavior when all hopes are lost.

Apples and oranges.

They were no fools, they were educated well enough to know every single detail of their upcoming death if a catastrophic event stranded them somewhere. That makes it even more scary for them.

I have no doubts about them having suicide pills. Don't trust the PR and pumping of "heroism". There's nothing heroic about suffocating in a can. I'm no Apollo denier (fu*king hate those people) but I'm not a mindless believer when it comes to PR and military. They lie. It's a fact.

We can all listen to cutesy stories while wearing nice suits during a funeral, but such deaths are accompanied by screaming, crying, cursing and utter despair and agony.

It will be easy enough to kill yourself in space painlessly by taking off your helmet.

Painlessly? You're kidding, right?

Edited September 4, 2013 by lajoswinkler

[Mr Shifty]

They would almost certainly have died of CO2 asphyxiation, which is painless: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation

[Specialist290]

I'm talking about inevitable, unavoidable death. Not "risk of death". Death in "t minus". People lose their sh*t. They either start to panic, or they stop being responsive.

Someone should have told Carl Panzram that while they were hanging him.* Maybe he just didn't get the memo hand-delivered from you telling him he should have been panicking.

* Not that I think anyone should use a convicted killer as their role model, but I hope it reinforces my point -- even people who aren't necessarily paragons of virtue can face certain, inevitable death with relative composure. I also chose him because the people recording the circumstances of his death would have had no reason to lie if he had broken down and panicked.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Specialist290

[Diche Bach]

Don't think the coal industry provides suicide pills to miners or dozer drivers, so I'm not sure why astronauts would have them

[Diche Bach]

Someone should have told Carl Panzram that while they were hanging him.* Maybe he just didn't get the memo hand-delivered from you telling him he should have been panicking.

* Not that I think anyone should use a convicted killer as their role model, but I hope it reinforces my point -- even people who aren't necessarily paragons of virtue can face certain, inevitable death with relative composure. I also chose him because the people recording the circumstances of his death would have had no reason to lie if he had broken down and panicked.

Wow. That dude would've given Genghis Khan a run for his money!

Famous quote, which Genghis purportedly conveyed to his generals at one point. They were supposedly talking about what they enjoyed most in life . . . beautiful women, good food, being a leader, etc. Genghis said

The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies & drive them before him. To ride their horses & take away their possessions. To see faces of those who were dear bedewed with tears & clasp their wives & daughters to his arms.

[lajoswinkler]

They would almost certainly have died of CO2 asphyxiation, which is painless: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation

CO2 is not an inert gas. It's an integral part of our metabolism and triggers the carotic body's chemoreceptors, resulting in the sense of panic. Really, all you who are downplaying the horror of suffocation, go on and try. You won't succeed because well before there's real danger involved, panic is so high your body fights for air and you'll remove the bag or whatever you're doing.

Asphyxiation using decreased levels of O2, either by reducing total pressure or by reducing partial pressure (by inserting more inert gas like nitrogen, argon) induces clinical euphoria which is not what people usually mean when they think of the word. It also has its level of horror.

Someone should have told Carl Panzram that while they were hanging him.* Maybe he just didn't get the memo hand-delivered from you telling him he should have been panicking.

* Not that I think anyone should use a convicted killer as their role model, but I hope it reinforces my point -- even people who aren't necessarily paragons of virtue can face certain, inevitable death with relative composure. I also chose him because the people recording the circumstances of his death would have had no reason to lie if he had broken down and panicked.

You can't compare an angry response from a violent psychopath facing his own murder with hopeless thoughts of a mentally health man who's also being subjected to elevated partial pressure od CO2. It's apples and oranges.

I see many of you have this sugar coated view of reality. Real world is not TV series and blockbuster movies.

[Specialist290]

lajoswinkler, I've held off on mentioning this because I don't like to talk about it, but since you've forced my hand: I have been personally clinically diagnosed with Panic Disorder. One of the hallmarks of this disorder is that I suffer from panic attacks on an infrequent basis. A few have been serious enough that I've hyperventilated; at least one of them caused me to literally collapse. I know from firsthand experience what it's like to feel hopeless and that nothing you can do will (seemingly) get you out of a desperate situation.

I also know that I can continue functioning, even when a panic attack hits.

It's not pretty, and I usually still need some time to "decompress" once the attack is past, but even when every fiber of my being screams at me to just shut down, I can keep pushing on. Yes, in retrospect most of those situations wouldn't meet your exacting criteria of helplessness, but feeling it from the inside of my own head at that moment, it certainly felt like there were no escape routes from those situations. Nevertheless, I know, from firsthand, personal experience, that panic is not as crippling as you make it out to be.

Now you tell me what your experiences with existential terror have been, and maybe I'll come around to your way of thinking.

[lajoswinkler]

a) person suffering from panic attack, knowing nothing serious will happen, knowing it will pass in few minutes or so

abandoned person knowing he faces certain gruesome death in half an hour, locked in a can with ever increasing partial pressure of CO2 which is a potent panic inducing gas

Now how can that be the same thing?

I'm not downplaying panic attacks. I know how it feels.

My feelings of terror? I've nearly drowned and lost all of my hope. It's horror far beyond any panic attack I've had because I honestly thought, based on evidence, that I was going to die. Man, you just lose it, and it hurts so bad.

I can only imagine how scary it must be when you breathe air that's getting more and more saturated with CO2 instead of just holding breath. I couldn't move because I was unable to, but if I was in a module, being able to move around, inhaling air that wasn't any good anymore, I asure you I'd start trashing around before seizures start.

I'd munch on that poison like it was a delicious cake.

We can all be heroes and not cry while the O2 levels are normal, but when the atmosphere starts to change and you know you'll cease to exist in a horrific way, you stop being all Hollywood.

One of the things the movie industry teaches us is that suffocating people tend to stay in one place, merely flapping hands a bit before letting go. Nothing can be less true than that.

People who struggle for air often break their tendons and even bones while trashing around. There's lung damage with hemorrhage. In the last moments they breathe the fluid in and remain twitching like mad until system shutdown.

See this?

Bull****.

I hope you never experience something like that.

Edited September 4, 2013 by lajoswinkler