Petition against UK surveillance

[SpaceHole]

I really don't see the problem with more cameras. As stated no-one is going to watch the footage without reason. You get murdered, the footage is there and the bad guys get caught. Great. You murder someone, the footage is there and you get caught, great. Nothing of note happens and....guess what, nobody watches the footage and nothing else happens.

I find it strange that you feel that being caught on camera means there's someone watching the feed or tape later, they wont be unless anything gives a reason to do so.

As mentioned before, you're neither that interesting or important for anyone to give two turds. 99.98% of all recorded footage from cctv is NEVER even seen by a human eyeball.

Also, 75% of statistics are made up on the spot etc.

- chances are probably 100% that depending on how many ppl get access the data will be abused

- normally there are lots of eye-witnesses and a camera cant help you - its probably a nice thing to be able to rewatch the crime over and over ...

- there is a huge interrest in this data which is a problem

- the more data there is from one person the easier it is to accuse someone - lets say someone accueses you of XY - ppl start looking trough every bit of data about you and start to cherry pick everything you did wrong and come to the conclusion - yes im sure he s guilty

- lets say XY is in power and wants to get rid of anybody who is not of his opinion - would be great for him to have all the data from the last few years on everybody

There are lots of arguments that are wrong or simply not thought-out - i have given up on trying to lecture every single one - if you want to know read about germany in a certain period of time and the police at that time

Edited September 5, 2013 by SpaceHole

[deskjetser]

The person who said UK cops are never corrupt...LOL.

I take it English isn't your first language, I said management, not cops IE; NOT INDIVIDUALS

[shand]

@synapse. I'm afraid that isn't how things work on the internet.

The internet is by its very nature a public beast - yes you are starting your journey in your private network, and going to the amazon private domain - competely agree. much like me going to my local shopping centre. But thats not the end of it.

Lets start at the obvious: Everything that is publicly accessibly is public. IE: this forum. definately public. we are all standing in a field chatting. police are well within their rights to waltz in and read what they like.

Now things get a bit more complicated: how you get from A to B.

Start simple: you are NEVER talking direct to B. you aren't stepping from your private domain into the shop. what you are doing is asking the guy at the end of the road if he could pass this note to amazon. he then says "sure" In the assumption that if he ever asked you to pass a note for him you would (this is the principle by which the internet works), he then passes the note to the next guy who claims to know where amazon, and so this continues. each individual node can be private, or public. But by sending out this note of yours you are LITERALLY sending a packet addressed to X with a clear "sent from Y" on the other side.

Now, we can simply break this down to your network, intermediate (of which there can by 50 odd), and target. If we assume the ends are private, the middle isn't. Or at least the external content of your packet isn't.

What you are saying if you ban electronic surveillance is LITERALLY the same as saying nobody is allowed to read the labels on any parcels you send by snail mail. Only, snail mail is monitored MORE then electronic at the moment. Airmail coming into the UK (for example) gets xrayed, and sniffer dogged. this is in addition to any security at the receiving end (their firewall is analogous to having a security guy check the mail, something they do in buisnesses).

[deskjetser]

@synapse. I'm afraid that isn't how things work on the internet. *snip*

I agree, if you can't handle the cops, the Chineese hackers or the NSA staring at your internet traffic, then go back to your tinfoil bunker, because the internet isn't run by a single entity and therefore cannot be changed by any one individual.

The internet does not change, it evolves.

[SpaceHole]

I agree, if you can't handle the cops, the Chineese hackers or the NSA staring at your internet traffic, then go back to your tinfoil bunker, because the internet isn't run by a single entity and therefore cannot be changed by any one individual.

The internet does not change, it evolves.

I lack the words to even answer such postings.

May i ask how old you are?

[deskjetser]

I lack the words to even answer such postings.

May i ask how old you are?

Let's stoke this fire... I'm 17 going on 5

And as much as you hated that post... truth hurts don't it?

[SpaceHole]

Let's stoke this fire... I'm 17 going on 5

And as much as you hated that post... truth hurts don't it?

Why would i hate your post? And why would something a random teen says about something he obviously has no clue about hurt me and be the truth?

Truth is reading posts as yours i just facepalm and think to myself that you probably just dont know better which is sad. People are pretty fast to have an optinion on the internet without actually informing themselves.

Anyhow what would one suspect growing up in the UK these days. I would actually never move there.

Funny fact - have you ever researched what impact CCTV had on actual crime?

Edited September 5, 2013 by SpaceHole

[deskjetser]

Why would i hate your post? And why would something a random teen says about something he obviously has no clue about hurt me and be the truth?

Truth is reading posts as yours i just facepalm and think to myself that you probably just dont know better which is sad. People are pretty fast to have an optinion on the internet without actually informing themselves.

How can I put this lightly?

You were just trolled.

And don't get yourself wound up, I've done alot more than I care to tell you about. Also before you go batting advice over the internet, you yourself shouldn't be so quick to form an opinion on myself.

[shand]

as a small add-on to my last post.

in 2008 Pakistan accidentally brought down the whole of youtube. they did this by trying to block them (another topic entirely), but they did it by broadcasting a duff IP for youtube - so if someone tried to get to youtube from below that node it would be given a duff address and timeout. great! except the way the internet works is the node broadcasts what it knows to surrounding nodes and this propagates until the whole world is full of nodes directing to the wrong address. and youtube came down

SO: to bring this back on topic: any data that leaves your router is a package (hopefully with a lock on it, if you use secure networks) addressed to someone and with your address on it. that information is freely avalible to any node it passes through, and the nodes are determined by who claims to know who your recipient is. you CANNOT make that information private without encoding it - and then that encoded content is itself contained in a package and sent to a specific location (with recipient and origin on it in big letters) where it is decoded. I've forgotten what its called - but its traditionally used by illegal dooers - child porn rings ect.

[lajoswinkler]

Let's stoke this fire... I'm 17 going on 5

And as much as you hated that post... truth hurts don't it?

Well this explains a lot. Being born in 1996 means you were not aware of the world before the internet revolution and before global-changing events like 9/11. You're born thinking everything is done for your safety and that it's all normal and moral and should be supported.

Now I understand, so I'm not angry anymore, just sad.

[deskjetser]

Well this explains a lot. Being born in 1996 means you were not aware of the world before the internet revolution and before global-changing events like 9/11. You're born thinking everything is done for your safety and that it's all normal and moral and should be supported.

Now I understand, so I'm not angry anymore, just sad.

Who said I was born in 1996? Are you people blind, I clearly made a crap attempt at trolling/baiting you for that post, and you're both falling head over heels to catch me out?

WAIT, WHAT? Are you sure, you guys are not the infants?

Edited September 5, 2013 by deskjetser

[SpaceHole]

Who said I was born in 1996? Are you people blind, I clearly made a crap attempt at trolling/bating you for that post, and you're both falling head over heels to catch me out?

WAIT, WHAT? Are you sure, you guys are not the infants?

Hmm you seem to seek for approval. Yet all you did was post something without a hint on the internet. You do realize that its almost impossible to spot "fake posts" on the internet since you cant see mimic etc.

My argument stays the same your some kid wasting others time in a thread with a serious topic.

And all your postings just show what you actually want - approval ...

[deskjetser]

Let's stoke this fire...

You do realize that its almost impossible to spot "fake posts" on the internet since you cant see mimic etc.

In case you missed it, Let's stoke this fire...

Or are you internet wizards in all your infinite wisdom too old to see that?

*EDIT* I'm not after approval, I'm here to argue about a topic, which you're clearly bored of.

Edited September 5, 2013 by deskjetser

[SpaceHole]

In case you missed it, Let's stoke this fire...

Or are you internet wizards in all your infinite wisdom too old to see that?

"I agree, if you can't handle the cops, the Chineese hackers or the NSA staring at your internet traffic, then go back to your tinfoil bunker, because the internet isn't run by a single entity and therefore cannot be changed by any one individual.

The internet does not change, it evolves."

This was the post i replied to.

[deskjetser]

"I agree, if you can't handle the cops, the Chineese hackers or the NSA staring at your internet traffic, then go back to your tinfoil bunker, because the internet isn't run by a single entity and therefore cannot be changed by any one individual.

The internet does not change, it evolves."

This was the post i replied to.

Oh no, that post was, albeit stuffed full of my dry humour, serious.

[shand]

Deskjetser: I could see it was quite obvious you weren't stating your real age

I wouldn't say it was trolling per se though. more providing obviously incorrect information... with a nice obvious warning you were about to do it

Just so we are clear: this discussion doesnt have anything to do with CCTV. its about online monitoring. Now lets put it like this. every node CAN SEE EVERYTHING THAT PASSES THROUGH IT and stores that information (at least shortterm). if the police own that node then they can perfectly legally monitor activity on it because its THEIRS. If they find a node that they suspect is doing illegal stuff. they can monitor activity just as if it was a known drug den.

That is a no-questions asked guarentied they WILL be doing that.

The only complex thing is, if you are going node to node shouting at the top of your lungs that you want to go to the bomb makers school - should the police have the software in place to alert them this is happening - or perhaps, should the owners of the node be obliged to inform the police of such things. that is the area of debate.

[deskjetser]

Well, after being probed by the elder internet wizards, I think we should get back on topic, IE; NOT ME

But really I'm flattered!

*EDIT* thx Shand for helping with the topic change.

[deskjetser]

the fact is while it doesn't affect the crime rate, it greatly improves the percentage of successful prosecutions.

Funny fact - have you ever researched what impact CCTV had on actual crime?

I believe you have not read all my posts.

[sal_vager]

Gentlemen, I understand this is an important topic, as an Englishman myself it is something I am concerned about, I'd like less surveillance even though I know the UK government and any contractor they choose to use to do any such monitoring is simply not competent enough to do so.

However, this kind of subject is beyond the scope of the KSP forums, even for the Space Lounge, and as such I'll be closing it here, everyone who has wanted to has had a say by now and it looks like the thread has deteriorated.

Thank you all for your comments, but I ask that if you wish to continue this that you do so on another site such as Reddit.