CLOSED -- Flying Duna AGAIN (Thanks for Participating)

[Geschosskopf]

Any chance I could convince you to make an exception for Tier 1 KSP Interstellar technology being in a separate class, by the way?

Probably not. This is a court of law, not a court of equity, and nihil iniquius quam aequitatem nimis intendere. Seriously, if you can meet the requirements, you've done wonders and get the patch. Given the magnitude of the task, I think rankings among those who succeed are insignificant.

[Northstar1989]

Probably not. This is a court of law, not a court of equity, and nihil iniquius quam aequitatem nimis intendere. Seriously, if you can meet the requirements, you've done wonders and get the patch. Given the magnitude of the task, I think rankings among those who succeed are insignificant.

Well, I have my concerns about Steven's entry... You see, since he posted that, thermal turbojet aircraft have been GREATLY nerfed...

In particular, the atmospheric intakes he used have been removed. It turns out they had 4x the intake-area of a RAM intake, and due to a coding technicality, were producing *NO DRAG*- which is why they were removed. Obviously, removing a dragless, 4 times more effective intake option which he used in his craft means future competitors are at a serious disadvantage...

Additionally, KSP-I further nerfed Thermal Turbojets by introducing a precooler part, and requiring it to fly at high speeds. So, anything like Steven's design would now EXPLODE without precoolers- which add additional mass, weight, and drag... (and increase part-count: necessitating even smaller overall designs to counteract this...)

What I propose is, KSP-Interstellar designs before 0.9.1.1 (when the precoolers were added, and the option to Atmospheric Intakes removed) be placed in a separate category. It is simply IMPOSSIBLE to replicate the kind of performance that was possible with 2.5 meter Atmospheric Intakes with stock Ram Intakes or B9's SABRE Intakes...

Those players who launched designs before 0.9.1.1 are at a serious advantage (including myself)- since the Atmospheric Intakes have been removed in such a way that new craft can simply no created using the intakes, but existing craft that already contain them will still have them and function for at least a couple more versions (meaning I will still be able to fly my Eagle Mk2 and Blackhawk Mk6 designs on Duna, which both used KSP-I Atmospheric Intakes- but nobody else could replicate these designs if they wanted to...)

Regards,

Northstar

EDIT:

I just wanted to correct myself. I hadn't actually played with precooler functionality in KSP-I yet (even though I was using 0.9.1, where precoolers were required, I was also unable to reach sufficiently high speed/altitude to even need them due to a bug with uneven thrust), so I wasn't quite sure exactly how they had been implemented. It turns out it's not actually a separate part- but new functionality for stock and B9 precoolers- so they actually do something useful in cooling the intake air. As stated before though, this is a nerf- without these parts, thermal turbojets *OR* RAPIER jets will both explode at sufficiently high speeds... (KSP-I modifies the stock RAPIER engines to also require precoolers)

EDIT #2:

Ack, I know it's the post-Christmas slump; but I really need to watch my words a little more carefully. What I MEANT to say, is KSP-Interstellar modifies the "Radial Engine Body" from stock already in the game (which doesn't actually do anything except add weight, part-count, and drag to your planes) into an "Intake Precooler" which actually does serve a purpose- in preventing the air compression-based overheats of TTJ's and RAPIER engines that KSP-I now makes possible. As stated, it also makes B9 Aerospace' precoolers functional for this purpose as well.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Northstar1989

[Geschosskopf]

Well, I have my concerns about Steven's entry... You see, since he posted that, thermal turbojet aircraft have been GREATLY nerfed...

Well, it worked at the time, which is what counts. I control neither KSP itself nor its mods. Apart from Sirine's xenon-burner, I can't really think of a practical way of doing this pure stock (and was rather surprised that worked, given how poorly ion engines work in Kerbin's atmosphere). Thus, you almost certainly need mods and mods are much less concerned with save-breaking updates than Squad is. And as such, there is the near-certainty that every update of the stock game will be accompanied by save-breaking mod updates.

What I propose is, KSP-Interstellar designs before 0.9.1.1 (when the precoolers were added, and the option to Atmospheric Intakes removed) be placed in a separate category.

I'm going to tag it "0.22 only". That's short, sweet, and conveys all the essential information.

[Northstar1989]

Well, it worked at the time, which is what counts. I control neither KSP itself nor its mods. Apart from Sirine's xenon-burner, I can't really think of a practical way of doing this pure stock (and was rather surprised that worked, given how poorly ion engines work in Kerbin's atmosphere). Thus, you almost certainly need mods and mods are much less concerned with save-breaking updates than Squad is. And as such, there is the near-certainty that every update of the stock game will be accompanied by save-breaking mod updates.

I'm going to tag it "0.22 only". That's short, sweet, and conveys all the essential information.

Sounds fair enough- though the design I was specifically referring to was the KSP-Interstellar design. The electric propeller Firespitter/NearFuture) design he submitted works fine in later versions of KSP and KSP-I AFAIK...

Regards,

Northstar

[Northstar1989]

Ok, so I've been quite busy designing the RAPIER-Thermal Turbojet hybrid spaceplane model I promised before, and here it is. I call her the 'Raven Mk2'. She's not only a SSTDABK-capable spaceplane, she's also my highest-altitude jet on Kerbin ever (when the RAPIER engine is in AirBreathing Mode, she can hold over 34,000 meters). Here are images for the Challenge Run...

Javascript is disabled. View full album

MAJOR Design Refinements:

(1) Relies on Thorium-based nuclear reactors instead of Uranium-based nuclear reactors (still pre-Fusion tech only requiring the stock Nuclear Propulsion node. Produces 37.5% more ThermalPower, close to twice the thrust, and Thorium is slightly lighter than Uranium. On the downside, it requires a LOT more regular maintenance.)

(2) Utilizes just TWO of the new Procedural Dynamics control surfaces to greatly increase stability & control while simultaneously slashing part-count and lag. (the control surfaces, found at the rear of the lower wings, were increased to near-maximum size for the design)

(3) Incorporates a RAPIER engine to greatly increase weight-efficiency of the ascent system. When leaving Kerbin's atmosphere, the Raven Mk2 moves from Twin Thermal Turbojet (T3J) power (all intakes open on Liftoff), to combined T3J/RAPIER-AirBreathing power, to T3J/RAPIER Airbreathing/Conventional-Rocket power, to T3J/RAPIER ClosedCycle/Rocket power (radial intakes closed at this point), to RAPIER CC/Rocket-only power (inline intakes closed at this point), to orbit circularization just with the higher-ISP conventional rocket (a NovaPunch2 1.25m Orbital Achievement Device- 405 ISP but low thrust). The complex patterning of engine activation and deactivation, as well as timed intake-closure (radial intakes before inline intakes, as radial intakes choke the RAPIER in ClosedCycle Mode, and cannot be precooled) is designed to maximize efficiency. The result- the Raven Mk2 can ascend to orbit on less than a quarter the fuel of the Blackhawk Mk6. (which also saves on fuel-tank weight)

I know it seems I've launched an awful lot of spaceplanes at this point, but previously I took to showing my failed designs as well as my successes... (at this point, I've skipped over the failed models I was working on, such as the Raven Mk1)

I'm also rather reluctant to enter the Eagle Mk2 or the Blackhawk Mk6 into this challenge after learning the intakes I used produced no drag. It just feels kind of cheap to rely on those entries to meet the challenge requirements...

I'll still test those models out on Duna (it'll teach me a little more about Duna aviation in preparation for the Raven Mk2), and even post them here so anybody who wants to can use them for inspiration, but unless I am unable to successfully fly the Raven Mk2 on Duna, I'm going to try and use this model rather than my previous thermal turbojets to meet the challenge's requirements...

Regards,

Northstar

P.S. I know there are no images of the plane on the runway here- I forgot to snap images of the final version before Liftoff. If you're curious though, you can find runway images of a slightly earlier version of the Raven Mk2 (with *slightly* smaller Procedural Dynamics wings) on my "Kerbin and Beyond: A Maturing Space Program" thread. Hopefully this doesn't disqualify my entry...

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/57509-Kerbin-and-Beyond-a-Maturing-Space-Program

Edited January 11, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Northstar1989]

I know it's been a while, but I haven't forgotten about this challenge. Here are images of my refueling the Raven Mk2 at 100km, and then again at 350km (due to my own carelessness, I didn't fill the fuel tanks all the way at 100km).

The spaceplane will be making another refueling stop in Munar orbit, and possibly even refueling one last time in a highly elliptical orbit around Kerbin (I'm trying to make a transfer to Duna at closest approach, so I'm going to need all the fuel I can get!)

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Also, as you probably noticed, I made a crew transfer at 100 km- one of the Kerbals (Bartgel Kerman) serving as crew on the fuel tanker (I utilize some manned designs as I am also simulating "relief crews" at my 350 km space station- I have a sizable infrastructure of space stations, space taxis, and a "scrapper" recycling ship already developed in my career mode save) was both more courageous and less stupid than the previous pilot of the Raven Mk2- so I swapped them. I don't know if courage has any effect on gameplay, but I do know that KSP-Interstellar, at least, rewards lower stupidity values with higher Science Point yields at the mod's science lab...

Finally, here are a few images of the Raven making its transfer to the Mun- where it will be refueled by one of the two fuel tankers already sent there to refuel the Blackhawk Mk6 (I didn't know which would get a rendezvous opportunity first)- which will be refueled and sent to Duna soon.

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Regards,

Northstar

EDIT: Scratch the refueling in an elliptical orbit. The plan is to refuel again in Minmus orbit- it's very easy to set a periapsis from there that passes extremely close to Kerbin (where the Oberth Effect can be fully exploited), due to the very low orbital velocities that far out; and even on a straight burn for Duna, I think it's still a shorter burn than from Munar orbit...

Edited January 17, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Northstar1989]

More progress on my Challenge runs:

The Blackhawk Mk6 is now fully-fueled, and has more than enough Delta-V (>4200 m/s) to transfer to Duna from its current Munar orbit in a semi-reasonable timeframe even given how far Duna is past its ideal transfer position:

Javascript is disabled. View full album

The Raven Mk2, on the other hand, has just finished its Munar capture, and has a fuel-tanker en-route to refuel it before the next leg of its journey:

Javascript is disabled. View full album

I anticipate the Raven Mk2 will need to refuel again in orbit around Minmus, due to how far Duna is past its ideal transfer window, and the size of its Delta-V budget (a bit over 1100 m/s- the bare minimum required to make a Duna transfer from LKO at the ideal transfer window).

The normal designed operating profile of the craft is for it to refuel in LKO and Munar orbit, and depart from there- as this gives me more leftover fuel for maneuvers near Duna- but an extra refueling stop around Minmus will currently be necessary due to the planetary alignment... I also would prefer a more rapid transit than the 5+ months I estimate from a Minmus departure with the alignment this poor- so I may even attempt a mid-transfer refueling after the first burn is made (my heavy fuel tanker designs are more than capable of catching up to the Raven if they leave a couple minutes after it...) so I can speed up the transfer to something more reasonable... I hope this is allowable- I know it's pushing the boundary between transfer stage and refueling stop a little bit- but the vessel *does* have enough fuel capacity to make it on its own more slowly...

Also, due to extensive and critical real-life obligations, and competing interests in establishing my operations on Duna with vessels that preceded the spaceplanes, I expect a large delay before I manage to land either on the Dunar surface- hence the reason for these updates: since it might be a long while before the actual landings, and I prefer to write on what I've done while it's still fresh in my mind...

Regards,

Northstar

[Fengist]

Since I really wanted to start a Duna circumnavigation challenge after starting the Eve circumnavigation challenge, I was looking to find a way to get around Duna safely and reliably. As a result I ended up doing this challenge anyway. I posted pretty early in this thread that I didn't think this was possible with anything but electrics and ions (and now fusion electrics) and I'm sticking by that claim. Kethane jets alone do NOT work well on Duna. BUT... combine them with some electric props and here's my result.

Well, I didn't see 1D-1()T's plane before creating mine so all I can say is, great minds think alike.

This plane was more of a test to see if it was possible before sending up a larger one with more Kerbals aboard. I didn't bother to really score it as this was more of an experiment (one of my few that worked.) But I think it would only get a ONE on your scale.

Like 1D-1()T's plane, this one is Kethane powered, using the Kethane generator to create electricity (especially at night) but with the addition of Kethane engines as well. One of the downfalls of electrics on Duna is very low thrust. For my plane, that means getting beat to death with long takeoff times while the electrics build up speed. The advantage I get with using both electric and Kjets is that I can use the Kjets as slingshots to get me off the ground and up to altitude quickly. From there, solar panels and the K generator supply MORE than enough power to run the electrics. By using air brakes and reverse thrust on the electrics I can easily get the plane down below 80m/s and restart the jets when (not if) they flame out and I need to gain some altitude. One thing the Kjets don't allow me to do is to use them like a catapult. While I can easily reach altitudes of 18km or higher, coming back down from that altitude is much like... well, a catapult. The porpoising effect on Duna is horrendous.

Unfortunately, the folding electrics I chose wouldn't hold much above 4500m altitude for any length of time. But, the reverse thrusting and using the Kjets to vault over high terrain allowed me one feat I didn't really expect. I was able to complete a non-stop polar circumnavigation (yep, flying at night on Duna is not for the faint of heart). Thanks to the efficiency of the Kethane generator I landed with plenty of Kethane to spare.

Here's some selfies. Enjoy.

Leaving KSC for orbit - I used 4 Rapiers to get into orbit. You'll also notice that I'm already loaded with Kethane. This is a tank that I pre-filled (modded) to save time. Yes, I could have taken another jet to a Kethane field on Kerbin, filled it and ran back to fill this plane but I don't get a lot of free time to do this sort of thing. The reason I needed the Kethane was I was having a hell of a time getting those Rapiers into orbit without running out of fuel. That's why you'll see a small Kethane converter and LFO tank in the cargo hold in later pictures. That's the only modded part. You'll also notice 2 tanks above the wings. These are 2 ION engines which I'll use to deorbit once at Duna. They were discarded before landing.

The delivery system - There's the plane attached to the nose of one of my long range tugs. Attached to the back of the tug is an unmanned tanker. The basic plan is, use the tug's 6 atomics and the tanker's 4 atomics to get to Duna. Once there, fill the tug with any leftovers from the tanker, drop the plane and discard the tanker. Hopefully, that will allow me to get the tug back to Kerbin.

Filler Up - Here, I'm making a pit stop at the Mun. Attached to the rear of the tanker is a Kethane mining ship I affectionately call Dreadlocks (for obvious reasons). With it, I'm able to get 40k Kethane off the Mun and pump some more fuel into the tug/tanker. One HUGE mistake I made, I converted ALL the Kethane to fuel. That meant, when it came time to land on Duna the plane had 0 Kethane which REALLY screwed up my center of gravity. Took me 7 attempts to land.

Burning to Duna - Here's a better shot of the tug & tanker delivery system.

Incoming - It took several orbits to get the ions to drop me where I wanted but they did work. The target in the distance is my stock+kethane pictured later. The plan was to get pretty close to it on landing as it was in a pretty low spot. I missed by about 200km.

Landed and mining - Here I have both cargo doors open to expose the guts. 2x 1k Kethane tanks, lots of batteries, the Kethane generator and the Kethane converter attached to a small LFO tank (which I forgot to empty into the tug so now I'm dragging it around for no purpose.) You'll notice at the rear of the cargo area are the two Kethane drills.

Exposed - A closeup of the insides.

Meeting of the minds - Here I've landed beside my first Duna plane, a stock+Kethane attempt at flying Duna (it failed miserably)

Ike Rise - Kethane jets engaged and gaining speed and altitude.

It's cold - A shot flying over the Duna north pole. Here you can clearly see my 'sissy' wheels on the wing tips.

Mods used - Kethane, B9, Anvil (the decouplers for the Ions), Firespitter (props and wing mounts), Multi-wheels (landing gear) and stock parts.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Fengist

[1D-1()T]

That is one heck of a plane Fengist. I must say that combining the Kethane jets with props was a stroke of genius. Gotta love some afterburner-y goodness

[Fengist]

That is one heck of a plane Fengist. I must say that combining the Kethane jets with props was a stroke of genius. Gotta love some afterburner-y goodness

Thanks 1D... when I finally got around to looking at yours (after mine was well on it's way to Duna) my jaw dropped. I didn't think anyone had ever thought of using Kethane to make electricity for long trips. With my old plane, I discovered exactly what the limitations of the Kjets were on Duna, I crashed... lots. So I knew those alone wouldn't do it. Since everyone else was using electrics, I decided to see if they could push me along when the Kjets flamed out. They weren't as good as I had hoped, but good enough.

After takeoff - This is not long after my first takeoff. The KJets got me well over 10k AP while keeping my trajectory mostly flat (so I wouldn't drop like a rock). The jets only used 225 Kethane to reach this altitude and the generator was still at 0% because of the low thrust of the props. From this altitude I was able to glide long distances and once the props caught air they helped keep me at around 5-6k. When I dropped to 4.5k, I'd reverse thrust, hit the airbrakes and restart the Kjets. I probably only had to do 5 or 6 vaults with the Kjets to make a circumnavigation

[Northstar1989]

Since I really wanted to start a Duna circumnavigation challenge after starting the Eve circumnavigation challenge, I was looking to find a way to get around Duna safely and reliably. As a result I ended up doing this challenge anyway. I posted pretty early in this thread that I didn't think this was possible with anything but electrics and ions (and now fusion electrics) and I'm sticking by that claim. Kethane jets alone do NOT work well on Duna. BUT... combine them with some electric props and here's my result.

Well, I didn't see 1D-1()T's plane before creating mine so all I can say is, great minds think alike.

This plane was more of a test to see if it was possible before sending up a larger one with more Kerbals aboard. I didn't bother to really score it as this was more of an experiment (one of my few that worked.) But I think it would only get a ONE on your scale.

Like 1D-1()T's plane, this one is Kethane powered, using the Kethane generator to create electricity (especially at night) but with the addition of Kethane engines as well. One of the downfalls of electrics on Duna is very low thrust. For my plane, that means getting beat to death with long takeoff times while the electrics build up speed. The advantage I get with using both electric and Kjets is that I can use the Kjets as slingshots to get me off the ground and up to altitude quickly. From there, solar panels and the K generator supply MORE than enough power to run the electrics. By using air brakes and reverse thrust on the electrics I can easily get the plane down below 80m/s and restart the jets when (not if) they flame out and I need to gain some altitude. One thing the Kjets don't allow me to do is to use them like a catapult. While I can easily reach altitudes of 18km or higher, coming back down from that altitude is much like... well, a catapult. The porpoising effect on Duna is horrendous.

Unfortunately, the folding electrics I chose wouldn't hold much above 4500m altitude for any length of time. But, the reverse thrusting and using the Kjets to vault over high terrain allowed me one feat I didn't really expect. I was able to complete a non-stop polar circumnavigation (yep, flying at night on Duna is not for the faint of heart). Thanks to the efficiency of the Kethane generator I landed with plenty of Kethane to spare.

Here's some selfies. Enjoy.

http://www.datainterlock.com/Kerbal/Duna1.png

Leaving KSC for orbit - I used 4 Rapiers to get into orbit. You'll also notice that I'm already loaded with Kethane. This is a tank that I pre-filled (modded) to save time. Yes, I could have taken another jet to a Kethane field on Kerbin, filled it and ran back to fill this plane but I don't get a lot of free time to do this sort of thing. The reason I needed the Kethane was I was having a hell of a time getting those Rapiers into orbit without running out of fuel. That's why you'll see a small Kethane converter and LFO tank in the cargo hold in later pictures. That's the only modded part. You'll also notice 2 tanks above the wings. These are 2 ION engines which I'll use to deorbit once at Duna. They were discarded before landing.

http://www.datainterlock.com/Kerbal/Duna2.png

The delivery system - There's the plane attached to the nose of one of my long range tugs. Attached to the back of the tug is an unmanned tanker. The basic plan is, use the tug's 6 atomics and the tanker's 4 atomics to get to Duna. Once there, fill the tug with any leftovers from the tanker, drop the plane and discard the tanker. Hopefully, that will allow me to get the tug back to Kerbin.

http://www.datainterlock.com/Kerbal/Duna3.png

Filler Up - Here, I'm making a pit stop at the Mun. Attached to the rear of the tanker is a Kethane mining ship I affectionately call Dreadlocks (for obvious reasons). With it, I'm able to get 40k Kethane off the Mun and pump some more fuel into the tug/tanker. One HUGE mistake I made, I converted ALL the Kethane to fuel. That meant, when it came time to land on Duna the plane had 0 Kethane which REALLY screwed up my center of gravity. Took me 7 attempts to land.

http://www.datainterlock.com/Kerbal/Duna4.png

Burning to Duna - Here's a better shot of the tug & tanker delivery system.

http://www.datainterlock.com/Kerbal/Duna5.png

Incoming - It took several orbits to get the ions to drop me where I wanted but they did work. The target in the distance is my stock+kethane pictured later. The plan was to get pretty close to it on landing as it was in a pretty low spot. I missed by about 200km.

http://www.datainterlock.com/Kerbal/Duna6.png

Landed and mining - Here I have both cargo doors open to expose the guts. 2x 1k Kethane tanks, lots of batteries, the Kethane generator and the Kethane converter attached to a small LFO tank (which I forgot to empty into the tug so now I'm dragging it around for no purpose.) You'll notice at the rear of the cargo area are the two Kethane drills.

http://www.datainterlock.com/Kerbal/Duna8.png

Exposed - A closeup of the insides.

http://www.datainterlock.com/Kerbal/Duna7.png

Meeting of the minds - Here I've landed beside my first Duna plane, a stock+Kethane attempt at flying Duna (it failed miserably)

http://www.datainterlock.com/Kerbal/Duna9.png

Ike Rise - Kethane jets engaged and gaining speed and altitude.

http://www.datainterlock.com/Kerbal/Duna10.png

It's cold - A shot flying over the Duna north pole. Here you can clearly see my 'sissy' wheels on the wing tips.

Mods used - Kethane, B9, Anvil (the decouplers for the Ions), Firespitter (props and wing mounts), Multi-wheels (landing gear) and stock parts.

I hate to burst your bubble Fengist, but you failed to meet the challenge requirements in one *major* way (I was arguing about this requirement earlier, so I sympathize).

It's clearly stated at the beginning of this thread that the plane must make an initial landing at "a minimum altitude of 2500m".

Since your initial landing was at about 1500m, you clearly failed to meet this requirement.

Try it again *from orbit* (a simple high-altitude landing won't suffice- a BIG part of the challenge of that requirement is making a high-altitude landing from re-entry velocities), and you should meet the requirements. Like I said before, I sympathize- personally I don't see the point in the rule, and would rather make an initial low-altitude landing myself... (the site I picked for my main Duna base is at about 1000-1250m)

Regards,

Northstar

Edited January 23, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Fengist]

I hate to burst your bubble Fengist, but you failed to meet the challenge requirements in one *major* way (I was arguing about this requirement earlier, so I sympathize).

It's clearly stated at the beginning of this thread that the plane must make an initial landing at "a minimum altitude of 2500m".

Since your initial landing was at about 1500m, you clearly failed to meet this requirement.

Try it again *from orbit* (a simple high-altitude landing won't suffice- a BIG part of the challenge of that requirement is making a high-altitude landing from re-entry velocities), and you should meet the requirements. Like I said before, I sympathize- personally I don't see the point in the rule, and would rather make an initial low-altitude landing myself... (the site I picked for my main Duna base is at about 1000-1250m)

Regards,

Northstar

As I said in my OP, this never was designed specifically to meet this challenge. If it did, dandy. If not. I'm satisfied with my build, it does what I want. And I'll be damned if I'm going to go through all of that again just to land 1000m higher than I did.

[Northstar1989]

As I said in my OP, this never was designed specifically to meet this challenge. If it did, dandy. If not. I'm satisfied with my build, it does what I want. And I'll be damned if I'm going to go through all of that again just to land 1000m higher than I did.

You only need to prove re-entry high-altitude landing capability. Perhaps Geschosskopf would let you get away with Hyperediting the thing back into orbit, and then all you would have to do is prove it can land at high altitude after re-entry?

Personally, I always found the rule a little irksome, because you could always pull out into level flight after re-entry BELOW 2500m (as long as the plane doesn't land), and then just climb back to 2500m and land there. Any plane capable of flying at 5000m on Duna (one of the other challenge requirements) is probably capable of doing that, even if it can't level out before 2500m.

[Fengist]

You only need to prove re-entry high-altitude landing capability. Perhaps Geschosskopf would let you get away with Hyperediting the thing back into orbit, and then all you would have to do is prove it can land at high altitude after re-entry?

Personally, I always found the rule a little irksome, because you could always pull out into level flight after re-entry BELOW 2500m (as long as the plane doesn't land), and then just climb back to 2500m and land there. Any plane capable of flying at 5000m on Duna (one of the other challenge requirements) is probably capable of doing that, even if it can't level out before 2500m.

Oh I easily could have landed above 2500 had I not converted all the Kethane and thrown the center of mass off. And as it was, it took me about 30 minutes of gliding well above 2500 unable to nose down, running with the props in full reverse and the air bakes on. But again, I did what I set out to do whether it met challenge criteria or not. The sad part about KSP, once you've done something, like put this plane on Duna, there's really no reason to do it again and nothing for you to do with it once you have.

[Northstar1989]

Oh I easily could have landed above 2500 had I not converted all the Kethane and thrown the center of mass off. And as it was, it took me about 30 minutes of gliding well above 2500 unable to nose down, running with the props in full reverse and the air bakes on. But again, I did what I set out to do whether it met challenge criteria or not. The sad part about KSP, once you've done something, like put this plane on Duna, there's really no reason to do it again and nothing for you to do with it once you have.

Build a self-sufficient colony on Duna. That's what I'm doing. It's more fun the more mods you have to work with (and only truly self-sufficient if you at least have at least one mod that lets you produce fuel from mining or the atmosphere, and another that lets you produce rockets and such from mining ore...)

Speaking of the challenge, I've made some progress towards putting the Blackhawk Mk6 on Duna for the Challenge Run (supposing something goes wrong with the Raven Mk2). Namely, I've made its transfer and first adjustment burn, and it is now on course for an encounter with Duna after an 82.5 day transfer orbit (much too long for my role-playing liking, but I couldn't get it much shorter with Duna in such a suboptimal position without wasting a lot more fuel- and I'd like to keep some for capture near Duna so I don't have to rely entirely on aerocapture...)

Transfer Burn:

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Adjustment Burn:

Javascript is disabled. View full album

I also refueled the Raven Mk2 a bit earlier, and will be transferring it to Minmus for one last refueling stop very soon (it wouldn't need it if Duna weren't so very far past ideal transfer position)

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Once again, if both the Blackhawk Mk6 and the Raven Mk2 make it to Duna and manage to meet the challenge requirements without breaking, I'd prefer to count only the Raven's entry- as I consider it's use of the old KSP-Interstellar atmospheric scoops an unfair advantage (which were, as a reminder, one of the multiple now-fixed reasons the "Last Dancer" could reach almost unlimited speeds in-atmosphere: they experience no drag whatsoever, and were also both implemented and relegated to non-buildable yet still playable status before compressive heating of atmosphere during intake was ever implemented...)

Regards,

Northstar

Edited January 25, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Northstar1989]

Two MINOR updates here:

The Raven made its Minmus transfer, and the Eagle made a RCS-only adjustment in its trajectory on the way to Duna:

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Regards,

Northstar

Edited January 29, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Northstar1989]

You know, I'm sorry for being a nag about Steven's non-KSP-I entry Geschosskopf (on that note, I edited my reminder about it out of my last post). Especially, because you were right!

You see, I was looking through the designs in my spaceplane hanger, clearing out old designs I don't use anymore or never used... And, remember the Hummingbird?

Anyways, I was remembering why I never deployed this thing to Duna (even though it would have taken the cake for electric aircraft with its 22-Kerbal capacity, compared to Steven's 11, and slightly higher expected altitude ceiling- due mostly to utilizing the stronger variant of Firespitter electric propellers, and having enough electricity to overclock their thrust 50% using the mod's built-in "Cargo" mode), and then it came to me...

The obvious reason is because it uses a KSP-Interstellar reactor to generate electric power. The non-obvious reason is because after those entries were placed in a separate category, I was unable to come up with an alternative powerplant for the thing that didn't use KSP-I...

Why, you might ask? Well solar panels added too much weight to the vessel (I would have had to add even more propellers and wing area). RTG's were even worse. Kethane would burn through too quickly with that many propellers. And NearFuture mod greatly nerfed the ability of their reactors to generate electricity in-atmosphere back when they removed the built-in radiators... (as the radiators now break off if deployed in-atmosphere- much like solar panels... The built-in ones were incapable of breaking off.)

Since Steven's non-KSP-I entry utilized one of the older NearFuture reactors for its powerplant, it doesn't work in 0.22 anymore either (it no longer has radiators- so its reactors don't work, and newer versions with the updated NearFuture mod won't generate enough electricity in-atmosphere without a much heavier powerplant.)

So, I apologize for nagging you to remove your note on this Geschosskopf. You were right in your first instinct- neither of Steven's entries works after 0.22, as the mods both rely on were nerfed.

Regards,

Northstar

Edited January 29, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Northstar1989]

Just a question for anyone who's still reading my posts:

What do you guys think of helicopters?

This is just an early prototype (my first helicopter ever, actually- and all-electric), but it can hover at a bit over 9000 meters on Kerbin- which is a little less than the equivalent air pressure of Duna sea-level (the equivalent altitude is found at 8047.2 meters, to be precise). That means it can at least make it off the ground on Duna. The gravity there is only 30% of Kerbin's, so it can certainly make it quite a bit higher than that- but I don't know how much higher since I don't know the equation for how the Firespitter electric helicopter rotor's thrust falls off with altitude.

It's nuclear-powered (a basic-level KSP-Interstellar thorium reactor, to be precise) since nuclear power is reliable day and night, and provides much better power-density for the weight than solar, both in KSP-I and in real-life.

By the way, I don't want to EVER hear how KSP-I's power densities are "overpowered" or "unrealistic" again. The fact is, nuclear power provides much more power for its weight than solar in real-life (at the cost of posing a radiation hazard), especially as you scale it up. This fundamental realtionship accurately holds in KSP-I. If KSP-I's fission reactors seems overpowered, that's only because you're accustomed to the terrible power densities that using solar power entails, and most other mods inaccurately try to model nuclear power to have a similar or only slightly greater power density to solar- for instance NearFuture mod, which inaccurately places its reactors somewhere in the range between its smallest and largest solar panels in terms of power-density.

ANYWAYS, a helicopter should be much easier than a plane to transport to Duna (the Firespitter electric rotors fold up- so they're not very bulky at all in-transit), so I could easily integrate it into the top stage of a rocket (a two-way decoupler should slice it off nicely when it arrives) if I wanted to transport one there. The only problem for trnasport is the slightly uneven weight the rotors provide- and even that I'm looking at fixing with a design that relies on utilizing 2-4 symmetrical side-mounted plane propellers re-purposed as vertical turbines. So, how do you guys feel about them, once again? Would anyone be excited to see me fly a nuclear-electric helicopter around on Duna?

Regards,

Northstar

Edited January 29, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Northstar1989]

I got so excited with building my first helicopter I just kept rolling out new designs until I got something I was satisfied with...

I present, the 'Hornet':

This is yet another craft I'm going to take to Duna. But first, the specs:

Crew Capacity: 4 Kerbals

(Kerbin) Altitude Ceiling: >12,000 m

Max Landspeed: >240 m/s

Cargo Capacity: 0.5 tons of LiquidFuel

Note that helicopters, unlike jet planes, fly *faster* in thicker atmosphere, and *slower* in thinner atmosphere. The Hornet won't fly very fast on Duna under rotor power alone- hence the reason for the small KSP-I thermal rocket nozzle on one end, so it can get places more quickly in Duna's thin atmosphere (not coincidentally, KSP-I thermal rockets achieve MASSIVELY better ISP in thinner atmosphere- on Duna, I can expect ISP values well in excess of 1000). Despite appearances, it's not actually a very powerful rocket engine- it only produces 0.4 kN of thrust with the helicopters rotors also active on Kerbin.

It's a tiny little bugger- it weighs less than 3 tons minus the fuel (for reference, a Hitchhiker Storage Container weighs 2.5 tons), so I should EASILY be able to build the Hornet into the top stage of a rocket to Duna (also unlike most plane designs, it has an entirely unoccupied attachment node at one end- so it can easily attach to a rocket via docking port or decoupler).

Expect to see news on that launch soon (probably sometime while I'm waiting for the next maneuver node to get the Raven refueled and on its way to Duna).

Regards,

Northstar

Edited January 29, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Northstar1989]

Two more updates on what I've accomplished in the past couple days since posting...

First of all, the Minmus Spacedock (previously called the 'Early Spacedock') made its transfer to Minmus where it will refuel the Raven. Expect to see the Raven finally depart for Duna soon:

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Second, and much more relevant to this thread, I stuck the 'Hornet' on top of *YET ANOTHER* rocket I've decided to send to Duna, this time sending over a supply of Lithium and Nearfuture mod ArgonGas (I think I'm up to at least 12 vessels en-route now... Eight of them, including this one, are giant rockets in the more than half-megaton range.) It will be making a try for this challenge too, so consider it the start of a fourth parallel challenge run (after the Eagle Mk2, the Blackhawk Mk6, and the Raven Mk2)

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Regards,

Northstar

P.S. Let's see. For those of you who are interested, so far, my vessels en-route to Duna:

Duna Heavy Equipment Deployment Platform (0.5+ megaton vessel)

Duna Crew Module (0.5+ megaton vessel)

Duna Science Module (0.5+ megaton vessel)

Eagle Mk2 Transfer Stage (0.5+ megaton vessel)

Nuclear Orion Parts Tanker (0.5+ megaton vessel)

Heavy LiquidFuel Tanker #1 (0.5+ megaton vessel)

Heavy LiquidFuel Tanker #2 (0.5+ megaton vessel)

Duna Supplemental Equipment Vehicle (this vessel, 0.5+ megaton)

Argon Probe #1 (en-route to Jool- using Duna for a gravity-assist)

Argon Probe #2 (en-route to Sentar, Eeloo, or Dres- using Duna for a gravity-assist)

Duna Magsat (actually a re-purposed damaged Minmus probe for scanning the magnetosphere- which only *might* make a successful capture)

Valkyrie Crew Recovery Vehicle/ Space-Taxi

and, of course, the Blackhawk Mk6

Edited January 31, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Geschosskopf]

Sorry for the lag. I've been extremely busy lately.

Anyway, I see you all have been very busy. Northstar, keep at it. Fengist, please do the challenge with that awesome design. It needs to be immortalized on the front page.

I must note, however, that my own original proof-of-concept entry on page 1 also used the Kethane generator to power its electric props. As it turned out, this was rarely needed in daylight, mostly for taking off from in shaded valleys, flying towards the sun (due to the high angle of attack), and flying through Ike's shadow. But it did save my bacon one evening when, by flying west, I outran the sun and was caught in the dark over a mountain range .

[Fengist]

Sorry for the lag. I've been extremely busy lately.

Anyway, I see you all have been very busy. Northstar, keep at it. Fengist, please do the challenge with that awesome design. It needs to be immortalized on the front page.

I must note, however, that my own original proof-of-concept entry on page 1 also used the Kethane generator to power its electric props. As it turned out, this was rarely needed in daylight, mostly for taking off from in shaded valleys, flying towards the sun (due to the high angle of attack), and flying through Ike's shadow. But it did save my bacon one evening when, by flying west, I outran the sun and was caught in the dark over a mountain range .

Well... I'll try this again but as I'm out of town and on crappy laptop it's going to be sometime after Feb 14 before I can make a reattempt (with a new design I have in my head). But I will and will let you know how it goes.

[Northstar1989]

Well... I'll try this again but as I'm out of town and on crappy laptop it's going to be sometime after Feb 14 before I can make a reattempt (with a new design I have in my head). But I will and will let you know how it goes.

Well keep at it man! We'd all love to see another entry on the front page, and your deign was pretty cool!

Also, consider installing NearFuture mod. It adds much larger inline battery parts that scale much like the stock batteries. It will drastically cut down on your part-count (maybe allowing you to add additional wing area- your current design would fly higher on Duna with lower wing load) without increasing mass, for the same amount of electrical storage.

NearFuture nuclear reactors would also produce electricity more reliably than your solar panels, for lower part-count and less CPU usage; and in the long-run, for less mass than needing to carry a bunch of Kethane to burn for electricity, and tons of batteries to buffer out your power supply... And if you scale up your electrical generation a bit (and run additional/larger props to make use of it) they also benefit from greater electrical generation per ton with the larger reactors...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited February 2, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Northstar1989]

@Geschosskopf

I know it's been a while since anybody posted anything in this thread, so I wanted to suggest an idea to spice it up a little:

How about if you create an entry of your own, this time utilizing KSP-Interstellar? I'd love to see what you come up with using that mod, even though I know you've been reluctant to use it... Just stick to the fission reactors, and I'm sure you won't have a shock-and-awe reaction to the futuristic technologies of fusion or antimatter...

Regards,

Northstar

P.S. My Duna Flotilla, and with it my four vessels for this challenge (3 planes of various sizes, and a helicopter), are still on their way. I just haven't been very active in this game for a while, and I've been spending most of my time in-game setting up a mountaintop launch site in practice for setting up similar such sites at low altitude on Duna (I'd like to be able to utilize helicopters on Duna- which there is simply no way to get to work from a high-altitude base, as the air is too thin).

Edited February 14, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Geschosskopf]

this time utilizing KSP-Interstellar?

Once I get my Laythe SSTO seaplane's data back to Kerbin, I intend to leave the Kethane Travelling Circus to its own devices a bit while I experiment with Interstellar in a totally separate install. I already know the KTC save file is totally incompatible with Interstellar so installing that mod in the same game install will kill the KTC, and that ain't gonna happen until a KSP update kills it like its fathers before it.

But I seriously doubt that Interstellar will alter my approach to flying on Duna. I'm not at all interested in flying super high and super fast there. You only need to get high enough to clear MOST but not all of the mountains, and the only critical speed characteristic is being able to fly slow enough to land at what is the average terrain altitude of the planet. If you can do these things, then you can pretty much explore all of Duna in an aircraft, or fly between bases anywhere on Duna you care to put them. And that's the essence of this challenge and the reason for the minimum 2500m landing capability.

I look forward to your flotilla's arrival. And I'm glad to see more folks doing flotillas instead of single ships . Keep us posted.