The Career Mode !SCIENCE! Challenge - Max that Tech Tree!

[Vector]

Yeah, any time you're putting hardware out on the pad, it's still a launch. Even if it doesn't have engines, you're getting science to unlock the tech tree. Anyway, our current top-place holder has 11 missions, so even at that your plan will top the list if you go through with all 5 steps there.

I would agree you shouldn't be able to do science for "free", but I'm wondering, what exactly constitutes a launch? I myself am considering some creative potential missions and I think it would be helpful to clarify how launches are counted.

[SkyRender]

I would agree you shouldn't be able to do science for "free", but I'm wondering, what exactly constitutes a launch? I myself am considering some creative potential missions and I think it would be helpful to clarify how launches are counted.

You put it on the pad and either salvage it or get any science at all from it that gets saved across persistence, it's a launch. If you want to run "science-free" flights for whatever reason, you certainly can and it won't count against you. It's not really going to do you many favors either, of course...

[Sirine]

Not so. I've identified the required tech to basically break the Mun wide open science-wise and get an absurd amount from it. It takes around 1705 science to unlock (potentially 1615 if you can do without fuel lines).

Perhaps more DETAIL? The last tier 550 science points each (If not mistaken). Just remember 1 thing, a refueling launch is consider "a" launch.

1st launch you get LV-N? Solar Panel? Battery? Large fuel tank? De-coupler? Struct? Docking Port? SAS? Fuel line?

2nd launch you get all tier full?

Show me.

Show me your 2nd launch craft. I know it can be done or not, just by looking at it.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Sirine

[allmhuran]

It has been demonstrated by allmhuran (I believe) that it is possible to build a tier 0 rocket that lands on Minmus and Ike, and achieves orbit around Duna and the Mun. [...] Hmm... I'm wondering what I can do with a 1660 head start now...

Yes, the 1660 science gets you a long way through the tree. Most importantly it unlocks nuclear engines in addition to a number of science parts. You can also, if you want, unlock docking ports, which would allow you to do a multiple-launch-assemble-in-orbit mission using a grand tour monster. (Edit: But I'm not doing this since using more than one launch and docking in orbit could be considered poor sportsmanship! )

I currently have my second mission ship at Jool. No video yet, but the science haul should be several tens of thousands.

In addition to this, I have learned that the mission profile I used to gather the 1662 points was far less than optimal. It would have been better to forego landing on Ike and instead going and doing EVA reports etc around the Joolian system. As such I think you should be able to get a first mission science haul over 2000, possibly closer to 3000. I might give this a go, but I'm fairly certain that the whole tree cannot be opened in one launch, the limiting factor being power. Two launches, on the other hand, is fairly trivial, even without doing orbital assembly or refuelling.

Edited October 24, 2013 by allmhuran

[Sirine]

multiple-launch-assemble-in-orbit mission

I will consider that multiple launch.

I just wander how far you can open for the 1st launch?

LV-N? Solar Panel? Battery? Large fuel tank? De-coupler? Struct? Docking Port? SAS? Fuel line?

[allmhuran]

I will consider that multiple launch.

I just wander how far you can open for the 1st launch?

LV-N? Solar Panel? Battery? Large fuel tank? De-coupler? Struct? Docking Port? SAS? Fuel line?

For 1662 I went:

- Nuclear engines

- Science tree to ladders and, IIRC, thermometers.

- Unfolding solar panels and 400 charge surface mounted batteries.

This therefore includes smaller batteries, fuel lines, skippers, all of the decouplers, struts, SAS, larger fuel tanks (but not the Jumbo), the spherical probe, RCS thrusters, the 100 unit radial RCS tank, the medium sized inline RCS tank, lights, and assorted odds and ends.

You don't need to unlock the bigger panels and batteries, you could just add more of the small surface attached panels and more of the smaller batteries. The larger batteries cost the same as docking ports, so doing this would allow you to take docking ports... but, as I said, that feels like cheating.

[Ekku Zakku]

In addition to this, I have learned that the mission profile I used to gather the 1662 points was far less than optimal. It would have been better to forego landing on Ike and instead going and doing EVA reports etc around the Joolian system. As such I think you should be able to get a first mission science haul over 2000, possibly closer to 3000. I might give this a go, but I'm fairly certain that the whole tree cannot be opened in one launch, the limiting factor being power. Two launches, on the other hand, is fairly trivial, even without doing orbital assembly or refuelling.

That's pretty much exactly what I'm attempting now with roughly the same ship as you XD I think a Duna and Eve flyby is probably going to be the best way to get to Jool, since it costs around the same dV (if timed just right, like I was lucky to get), but also nets you more than 300 science from EVA reports. Probably going to be the same route I'll take in my second launch with all the science parts available.

[Sirine]

Well, wishing you two, good luck in achieving the 2 launches open all tech tree!

[SkyRender]

I'll outline my theoretical two-launch idea in detail, then.

The first launch has to gather at least enough science to get all of the science tech that works on the Mun plus docking ports unlocked. That's around 1615 or so.

The second launch sends up a very small science-centric Munar lander (with under 200 fuel needed for the full land-and-return-to-orbit operation) attached to a much bigger fuel array. Utilizing some clever staging, it's possible to get around 3,200 liquidfuel/oxidizer into Munar orbit along with the lander in just that one launch. The small lander performs 14 landings, one per Munar biome, and gathers/transmits as much science as possible from each. Every time it returns to orbit, it re-docks with the fuel tank array it brought with it to the Mun.

[allmhuran]

Utilizing some clever staging, it's possible to get around 3,200 liquidfuel/oxidizer into Munar orbit along with the lander in just that one launch. The small lander performs 14 landings, one per Munar biome, and gathers/transmits as much science as possible from each. Every time it returns to orbit, it re-docks with the fuel tank array it brought with it to the Mun.

Just take the Brute Force approach: unlock nukes and head for Jool

My mission 2 vehicle uses nuclear engines and two stages, therefore has about 14000 m/s delta-V available while waiting to eject from Kerbin.

[Kappa73]

i chose to unlock all of the science equipment with my 1st mission, and what ever i could with the rest of the points, but it could be that that was a mistake, we'll see. Trying to figure out my 2nd mission, was thinking of hopping all of the munar biomes with all of the science but im not so sure about that anymore. I guess i could do a tour shooting probes to planets with atmosphere and radioing the science back home? If i was to spend the science again i'd seriously consider getting docking ports for some mothership/lander action.

[Sirine]

I'll outline my theoretical two-launch idea in detail, then.

The first launch has to gather at least enough science to get all of the science tech that works on the Mun plus docking ports unlocked. That's around 1615 or so.

The second launch sends up a very small science-centric Munar lander (with under 200 fuel needed for the full land-and-return-to-orbit operation) attached to a much bigger fuel array. Utilizing some clever staging, it's possible to get around 3,200 liquidfuel/oxidizer into Munar orbit along with the lander in just that one launch. The small lander performs 14 landings, one per Munar biome, and gathers/transmits as much science as possible from each. Every time it returns to orbit, it re-docks with the fuel tank array it brought with it to the Mun.

Just friendly note. You should go in with top down angle for the Mun, just like scanning it with ISA map. Else you will having trouble adjusting the degree for difference biome.

[SkyRender]

I came to realize that it would only be fair if I did my own challenge. I also came to realize that I wanted to best the usual standards (fairly new as they are) by also completing it in a very short period of in-game time. So here we go...

The first ship in this endeavour is simply called One, because that's which ship it is. It's not designed for anything fancy like landing on other planets.

The science that this vessel takes in is nonetheless quite extensive. The One does a full orbit around Kerbin (gathering data on 6 biomes via EVA in the process), then launches off for a low-Minmus intercept. It gathers data all the way (including transmitted crew reports from high and low Minmus orbit and of course EVA data from HKO, HmO, and LmO), then swings by the Mun on the way back to Kerbin for more delicious data (including 3 different LMO biome EVA reports).

The return descent serendipitously happened over land, meaning Jeb was even able plant a flag to declare this victory!

The mission summary and resulting science tell quite a clear tale about how well the mission went.

And here is where my tech sat after that first mission. Getting fuel lines was an unexpected boon, but a well-appreciated one as well!

The Two was then built and prepared for launch. This vessel's goal: milk the !SCIENCE! out of Kerbin's orbits, all of Minmus, and at least two sites on the Mun (as well as their relevant orbits).

Minmus was the first stop as usual, and got picked clean in record time too.

The Mun was up next, and the northern crater biome gave Jeb his fill.

The midlands biome also gave him his fill. At this point, there were no other convenient nearby craters, so Jeb decided to call it a day.

Back on Kerbin safe and sound (and with some extra data from the oceans just 'cause), Jeb calls in the salvage crew.

Just look at the science discrepancy between this mission and where the tech tree sat after mission #1. That was a profitable launch!

I was able to unlock far more tech than I needed for the third and final mission, to say the least.

And here is a preview of that final mission now. The operation: blast off to a polar low Munar orbit, then make multiple visits to the surface via the (currently upside-down) science lander to gather data from every biome. Every trip back up will be followed by a quick refuel, and after the last trip is done, Jeb will fly the refueler back towards Kerbin and leave the lander in orbit. That's gonna be a long-haul of a mission, but it should result in the full tech tree getting unlocked in under a "month".

[Ekku Zakku]

I finally finished my tier-0 mission, took me all day (aside from the 2 hour hair appointment I had). I managed to enter Kerbin's atmosphere with 8 units of fuel left, which I used to slow down before the chute opened (I wish I hadn't forgotten to pack more; the only thing left after landing was the pod!). I couldn't do this mission with this fuel load again if I tried. Gravity assists off the wazoo! It's quite amazing how far you can go with such little fuel, this was the first time I've done this kind of a mission.

Mission summary: I left Kerbin orbit straight for Duna, got a close Ike flyby followed by a close Duna flyby and gravity assist (with a small burn) to bring my orbit down to Eve. Did a couple of orbits around Kerbol before getting the Eve encounter, but once I did, it was another wonderful gravity assist with a 680 m/s burn to bring my orbit up to Jool. Two and a half orbits later, about t+4 years, I made my Jool rendezvous and aerocaptured to bring my apoapsis barely inside Jool's SOI. After reaching apoapsis, I then brought my periapsis up to Pol's orbit and captured just inside its SOI. One EVA touch and go later, I leave Pol orbit for Bop, and repeat (the ascent there was very tight on Jeb's jetpack fuel, I got back to the pod with .2 remaining, and one of my previous attempts was similar and I ended up grabbing on to the ladder, but because of the velocity, I flew right back off. Reminded me of Gravity lol). After being done with Bop, I raised my Jool apoapsis again to nearly out of the SOI, then at apoapsis brought it down closer to Jool. Rather than burning at periapsis, I got a perfect gravity assist from Tylo that flung me all the way down to below Eve's orbit (could have even gone to Moho if I had the fuel), and an amazingly lucky Kerbin encounter. After aerocapture at Kerbin, I went to the Mun in a polar orbit and got as many of the biomes as I could find before returning to Kerbin.

Total science haul was 2461, plus 10 from poor Kerton Kerman who stayed on the launchpad the entire ~6 years that Jeb was away XD (what?! I needed him for time warping!) My unlocks are in the imgur album below (or click here to see it: http://imgur.com/a/wjnud#0), I unlocked all the science parts, and up to some of the 2m fuel tanks/parts. Just 6 science points left over! I know for sure that over 3000 science with tier-0 would be possible, with more flybys of Jool's moons, possibly a Moho visit (not really hard to do), maybe landing on Gilly and/or Minmus (which I just barely didn't have enough fuel to do), and more transmissions, since I neglected to remember the fact that my engine recharged electricity until I made it to Pol, whoops! Good luck to anybody who attempts to get 3000 in one go XD

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Edited October 25, 2013 by Ekku Zakku

[Sirine]

@ Ekku Zakku Congratulation on your great journey.

The most important tech tree for me to unlock are the LV-N engine, docking port, fuel line and struct.

Good luck on your 2nd launch mission to unlock the rest of the tech tree.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Sirine

[Kappa73]

Total science haul was 2461, plus 10 from poor Kerton Kerman

Most excellent! very well done. With a t0 mission like that, it's not just feasible to fill out the tech tree in 2 goes, it's actually easy! =)

[Ekku Zakku]

@ Ekku Zakku Congratulation on your great journey.

The most important tech tree for me to unlock are the LV-N engine, docking port, fuel line and struct.

Good luck on your 2nd launch mission to unlock the rest of the tech tree.

Thanks! I was really hoping for the LV-N, but I know I can accomplish the same, if not more, with regular engines while bringing more experiments. After all, I did just do 9/16ths of a fly-by grand tour with an LV-T30 XD

Most excellent! very well done. With a t0 mission like that, it's not just feasible to fill out the tech tree in 2 goes, it's actually easy! =)

Good to know lol. It'd be nice to have some smooth sailing after such an edge-of-my-seat mission! This is also my first attempt to unlock the tech tree, so I don't even have a feel for what it takes yet lol.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Ekku Zakku

[Vector]

Incredible! It's an interesting technique, burning at using Jool apoapsis to get intercepts. I will have to try that.

[allmhuran]

All of those amazingly fortunate gravity assists in one mission, with a ship that doesn't have half the delta-v required without them, and yet no pictures during the launch (these designs are very hard to fly), or the orbits, or the fuel during the route, or during the landings? Where's the proof you didnt' just hyperedit your way all over the solar system?

[allmhuran]

I was going to use this. About 5300 m/s of delta v after circularizing at Kerbin (about 33 fuel tanks remaining with two LVT30s), and with three command pods, so that means 3 copies of each EVA report and 3 of each ground sample can be returned to Kerbin. There's no need to transmit the data back... which is good, because of diminishing returns AND because you don't have enough power for that many transmissions. The three pods and two engines ensure that there is always enough power to transmit all the crew reports back.

Buuut, I'm not going to bother, because while this ship has over 1000 m/s more delta-v than my last one (and the one everyone else has been using), and can get about double the science points of a one-pod design with three copies of all data, I don't have hyperedit installed.

If anyone wants to use it, be my guest. craft file

Warning: As with all of these kinds of designs, any deviation of more than a couple of degrees away from vertical for the first 12000-odd meters will result in mission failure as drag forces on the heavy front end will cause you to lose control. This one is particularly stressful to try to fly, but it can be done.

Proof that it can actually get to orbit. Probably easier if you use a joystick, or not possible without (I have a thrustmaster warthog). SAS will not help you, it will tear the rocket apart.

You can't the see control indicators it in the video due to cropping, but I am frantically oscillating between full stick lock and very fine inputs all the way up to about 25000m.

http://youtu.be/cOS2sawcjiA

Edited October 25, 2013 by allmhuran
Correction to delta v

[Ekku Zakku]

All of those amazingly fortunate gravity assists in one mission, with a ship that doesn't have half the delta-v required without them, and yet no pictures during the launch (these designs are very hard to fly), or the orbits, or the fuel during the route, or during the landings? Where's the proof you didnt' just hyperedit your way all over the solar system?

I'm incredibly lazy with taking pictures now, and after the fact that I didn't think to take any until about half way through, I just didn't bother for the rest. I've been around the forums for quite a while, my forums posts are plenty, and my imgur account has some other missions to show my credibility: http://ekkuzakku.imgur.com/

I would feel that the t+ timer in the second picture would be a good indication that I actually went places, but I saved some quicksaves from the trip (only from Jool onwards, but the Duna and Eve flybys were pretty trivial anyways), I uploaded them, if you'd like to see them yourself: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B29zPJqIXumrLXdSNkpOS2F4OUU/edit?usp=sharing

Also I once circumnavigated Kerbin by water, took 11 hours, why would I do something less demanding than that without actually putting the time in? Also, I despise mods and haven't played KSP with them since .17. I assure you, I did actually go where I said I went =3

[SkyRender]

I've made an interesting discovery in my quest to suck the Mun dry of its !SCIENCE!: you can take multiple data samples from an instrument and transmit them even if the transmission queue is still working through everything. So I need not spend hours on the surface waiting for all data to transmit; I just need to sample and transmit a suitable number of times for that experiment and then blast off back to orbit to catch my refueling tanker in only one orbit. Excellent.

[allmhuran]

I assure you, I did actually go where I said I went

You may or may not have, there's no way to know. The ship from my previous post has about 50% more delta V and 3 times the experimental storage. I've at least proven I can fly it into orbit. I could then sit with another craft on the pad while I went and got dinner to run up the mission timer, fly around and edit the save to keep refuelling, claim I got even more lucky gravity assists, post up a truly insane result, and have just as much evidence to show for it.

[numerobis]

It would be really cool to see you do that trip. You've got a bunch more dV than prior spacecraft -- you should be able to cream the competition. Ekku aerobraked at Jool to get to Bop -- that's suboptimal, you could do better! And setting up gravity assists isn't exactly rocket science.

Oh wait, it is.

[Vector]

... I've at least proven I can fly it into orbit. ...

Just because your ships are hard to get into orbit doesn't mean they all are. This one looks very much like Ekku's but a bit bigger (shameless copy for my experimentation) and a non-expert pilot (me) can get it into orbit every time, except when I forget to explode the stages at the right time.

I've found that when you stack engines radially, they are not always parallel even though it would seem they ought to be. If you mount radially only at "right angles" (i.e. 2x, or 4x symmetry or in the same direction) it seems to improve the chances that the radially mounted parts will be parallel.

I would agree Ekku's claims are a bit light when it comes to proof, but gravity assists do not require luck, just patience.

I enjoy low-dV gravity assist bouncing and on a dry run test I got high and low encounters at all Jool's moons except Bop and got an Eve intercept on the way back, all with a Tech-0 ship with only 9 cans of fuel, and I still had a bunch left over, so it's definitely doable, not even that hard once you get the hang of it. A few days ago I posted the save file for an unrelated reason here.