The Data System, What Works, What doesn't, and How to Fix It

[BlazingAngel665]

The Data System, What Works, What doesn't, and How to Fix It

The Data System:

Right now the data system is in two parts, the first part is "Collected Data" and the second part is "Transmission/Recovery" Data collected is at the same rate from every type of science experiment. IE Mysterious goo always collects 10 data (not a real figure) and the Science bay always collects 25 (ditto). The location and number of times you have previously collected that data will affect the value of the data. Transmission is basically a wireless recovery, it collects the data off the ship while the ship is still on it's mission. The percent of data returned is also completely worthless at the moment but is a good mechanic that I feel will eventually evolve into something great. A quirk of the data system is that identical experiments cannot be stored twice on the same pod. For example, if I land with a two man lander can then I can take one sample and one EVA report from the surface in that location. However, you can store an infinite number of EVA reports from different locations. This makes polar orbits a great way to gain science in the beginning of the game. If my craft however were to instead use two 1 man pods, I could then take two of each type of science activity back to Kerbin with me.

What works with the Data System

The data system is robust at the moment and handles to the same experiment across the universe in a fun, engaging fashion. I was jubilated to discover the mun's science factor of three on my first landing. This works great! Keep it!

What is wrong with the Data System?

Currently there is no mechanism to collect repetitive data. In the above example the 2 man lander will effectively do less science than two one man capsules. Also the current science system values breth over depth. 1 landing in any given location is 95% of the science you can do. Data can be returned from just about anywhere on a whim, and power has very little to do with the situation after your first solar panel. Right now doing experiments in space is slightly different than most would expect. Exposing a material sample in a science bay requires you to return the ENTIRE science bay to Kerbin, usually in a unwieldy fashion.

How to fix it?

1. Break it down. Use data for things that are actually data like temperature, crew reports, photos, pressure, etc. Anything that is measured in Gigabytes should be transmittable at 100% efficiency.

2. Make it storable. Instead of the current system of one type of each per capsule there should be "data banks" of a certain amount of storage. Each capsule should have some built in storage, and additional parts should be provided. It should be the players choice if he/she/it wants to bring back 25 EVA reports from the same place. Allow transfer between vessels when docked. This is a much better and more sensible mechanic than the current system.

3. Add samples. Just like data it would be stored up to a certain amount per capsule, and additional containers could be provided. These sample would have to be returned to Kerbin for science. Later in the game a mechanic could be implemented to allow off site analysis to turn "samples" into "data" the data could then be transmitted. Samples could be transferred between docked craft. This would make much more sense then the current system of sample collection.

4. Make Science Bays "harvestable". This is a little bit of a future searching proposition, however I foresee additional science parts that will generate samples like the science bay and will incur a penalty if the entire thing is not returned to Kerbin. However when the future part is actually a giant research laboratory that you barley managed to get to orbit, that becomes less fesable. Instead Kerbals could "harvest" the samples from the lab and replace them with new ones. This would allow for the harvested samples to be put into the containers from suggestion 3 and returned to Kerbin. This could also allow for "resupply" flights to restock the labs supply of unused samples.

5. I have a feeling it's planned but I will suggest it anyways, duration experiments. Parts that must be manned by Kerbals to generate data/samples over a period of time when supplied with power.

6. More conditions on collection then just the biomes. Wouldn't it make sense that samples obtained during a Dunian winter would different? Or the night side of the moon may be uneventful, but during the day would some ice in the bottom of craters melt? This would add some incentives to remain in a location to collect science.

7. New Transmission mechanics. Remote Tech was far to strict but they got one thing very right. Space infrastructure is necessary for deep space exploration. Maybe some form of less strict Line of Sight and distance limited transmitters would be fun, and also add a reason to store data until the next transmission window.

Disclaimer, I know the whole system is in development, this isn't a condemnation, just a suggestion

Disclaimer Pt II, I love .22 with every single molecular bond between carbon and hydrogen in my body.

Miscellaneous Science Addendum

1. Science Bonus for certain Kerbonauts. Some would be trained in things other than blowing stuff up, It would make crew planning pretty awesome.

2. A way to expose the biome map. Knowing what different areas to explore would be cool, make disguise it as a geological survey tool. Basically kinda like mapsat. Have it worth science points as it nears completion.

3. EVA science tools. Drills, shovels deploy-able handheld gizmos, more things to do for science!

4. Change the Science curve. Right now the amount of science you get drops significantly once you take your first sample. Maybe instead the first sample should be worth less and the second should be worth more. Real science can't learn everything from just one moon rock, I doubt the Kerbals can

5. Unmanned science parts. Unmanned probes are highly undervalued in the current system. EVA reports represent so much % of the science that not using at least 1 Kerb is going to make getting through the tech tree nigh impossible. Curiosity has done so much science, don't forget the hundreds of other unmanned craft that have graced the skies throughout the space age. More unmanned science benefits Please!

Edited October 24, 2013 by BlazingAngel665

[allmappedout]

I just... Buhhhhhh... Great post you literally read my mind!

[Geist_Krieger]

I agree with everything the OP said, this should be taken into consideration when iterating on career mode.

[meve12]

I like this.

Can we add a 2.5mm lab made from a Hitchhiker module? Allows conversion of samples into science points onsite(at 80% efficiency, or something like that) and allows local access to the tech tree.

This is mostly for Kethane/Launchpads players who want to make a complete off-planet VAB though, so might be better as a plugin.

[KerbMav]

I agree with the OP and would like to add:

- Orbital EVAs above certain biomes ... why should they yield anything that could not be accomplished from inside the pod? Make them into orbital surveys to be done from the pod. An EVA could be like a crew report, setting a "milestone" for a "first EVA above x", similar to the implemented crew report.

- Anything that is a simple report (crew report, orbital survey above biomes, EVA above body) should be transmitted at 100%.

- Give players a reason to return the craft without punishing transmitting to much. After transmitting all data up to 90% of maximum science, transmitting gains nothing anymore, the next return mission will yield all of the remaining 10%.

- A surface sample should mandate a return mission as an incentive to visit more than once.

- EVAs on the surface are still to be treated as experiments, meaning transmitting the results should lead to the implemented deduction in science yield. (But 90%/10% suggestion should apply.)

- Vessels should log all accomplished "feats" of orbiting, landing, returning and not just the last (someone claimed it to be that way), only pods (and probe cores?) should count here.

- Jumping enabling the Kerbal to make an in-orbit-report is a bug, a minimum altitude has to be implemented here.

First point relieves the player from an unreasonable action to gather information.

Next three should rebalance science yield of transmitting and return missions, while bringing it more in line with reallife expectations and relieving players from the grindiness (third point especially).

Edited October 19, 2013 by KerbMav

[Brickyard]

I agree with all this. Being able to use data as data or unloading science projects and putting them in a storage pod would be wonderful. I really want a harddrive pod.

[FITorion]

Ah good I see at least one of your suggestions is what I was coming here to post.

I just tried a Apollo style Mun mission. IE Command pod in Mun Orbit. Lander goes down to get samples. Lander comes back up... (Here's where things break from reality)

Lander should be able to transfer stored experiments ... reports... surface samples... to the other pod while docked.

Lander gets ditched on a sub orbital trajectory to be destroyed while the command pod heads back to Kerbin to be recovered.

Since stored things can't be transferred... my 2 150 point surface samples are lost...

One other thing I would like... A list of stored data with the option to transmit only one thing at a time... or highlight multiple things to transmit. The current review stored data UI is a little clunky. And telling the antenna to transmit will transmit everything... it should ask what you want to transmit...

[BlazingAngel665]

I just... Buhhhhhh... Great post you literally read my mind!

I have a little Kraken blood in me, it gives me that ability. . . .

I like this.

Can we add a 2.5mm lab made from a Hitchhiker module? Allows conversion of samples into science points onsite(at 80% efficiency, or something like that) and allows local access to the tech tree.

This is mostly for Kethane/Launchpads players who want to make a complete off-planet VAB though, so might be better as a plugin.

I'm a Kethane launch pad player so I fully support this suggestion, I just think that something like that wouldn't be implemented until later in development.

I agree with all this. Being able to use data as data or unloading science projects and putting them in a storage pod would be wonderful. I really want a harddrive pod.

Absolutelly, Hard drives feel like something that Kerbals would use. "I could transmit this date, but launching a flashdrive and landing the data using only SRBs would be way more awesome"

Ah good I see at least one of your suggestions is what I was coming here to post.

I just tried a Apollo style Mun mission. IE Command pod in Mun Orbit. Lander goes down to get samples. Lander comes back up... (Here's where things break from reality)

Lander should be able to transfer stored experiments ... reports... surface samples... to the other pod while docked.

Lander gets ditched on a sub orbital trajectory to be destroyed while the command pod heads back to Kerbin to be recovered.

Since stored things can't be transferred... my 2 150 point surface samples are lost...

One other thing I would like... A list of stored data with the option to transmit only one thing at a time... or highlight multiple things to transmit. The current review stored data UI is a little clunky. And telling the antenna to transmit will transmit everything... it should ask what you want to transmit...

Right click on the pod and click review data.That will allow you to chose what to transmit. Other than that I sympathize for your Apollo mission. Hopefully we get some resolution soon.

[majorwraith]

I love the way you think!

this would give more depth to the science part of the game and give rewards if you go big with a bigger capsule and bigger storage space.

[Sirrobert]

Love it.

There should also be some initiative to keep sciencing once you have unlocked the tree. Probably a good place to tie in the science directly to the economy

[BlazingAngel665]

I love the way you think!

this would give more depth to the science part of the game and give rewards if you go big with a bigger capsule and bigger storage space.

Thanks, I my brain appreciates the compliment.

Love it.

There should also be some initiative to keep sciencing once you have unlocked the tree. Probably a good place to tie in the science directly to the economy

That's a good thought, but until squad implements the economy I think I will refrain from suggesting anything.

[iLlama]

Yes great thoughts! I hope the devs are going to implement thise features! it would make much more sense, and there would be an use for space stations, as well it will solve the problem i have with apollo style lander when nearly all the science is in the ship that isn't going back. I also would like a little lab for rovers like the one on the curiosity rover for processing samples directly on the surface, essential for unmanned probes that aren't going to come back.

[iLlama]

also that idea for a 2.5m manned lab would be cool especially for space stations or surface bases if it has the ability to process samples directly on the site. should be implemented.

and as well i find strange that a thermometer can hold only a temperature at a time

[N_Molson]

Lander should be able to transfer stored experiments ... reports... surface samples... to the other pod while docked.

This is definitively a problem, which kills pretty much the concept of a separated lander. Apollo astronauts would have been a little sorry if they had not been able to transfer the lunar samples from the LM to the CSM...

And since the soil samples are by much the most valuable science artefacts, there is no way to skip them.

Now, of course, you can add parachutes to the lander and push it back into Kerbin's atmosphere since there is no re-entry check yet, but I feel like it's cheating...

Edited October 23, 2013 by N_Molson

[sumghai]

I agree with the OP on pretty much every point s/he has made - I especially would like to see the ability to store / transfer multiple samples of any origin/nature in various storage formats (storage bins / containers for physical samples and tape/HDD drives for measurements).

I'm also keen on seeing experiments that require both power and long periods of Kerbal supervision to produce results, as this would make orbital/planetary research stations viable in-game.

[Dangerous_Beans]

i like this suggestion.

can we also have more null values? currently i can't take a pressure/temperature reading of deep space, but why not? it's kind of nice to have it confirmed that there is bugger all there. these sorts of readings are often quite useful.

[TelluriumCrystal]

This is brilliant! I fully endorse this version of Scienceâ„¢!

[HoustonWeHaveAProblem]

I agree with the OP! Great ideas and good summary of the issues as they stand. Also loving 0.22 with every whatsit of my doomahickeys - and stuff.

[hebdomad]

After posting my own thread on the topic and reading others, there seems to be a general consensus that science data should be transmittable/storable, and samples storable/transferable. There should also be mechanics that allow for long term space stations to be viable. Hopefully squad hears us out on this one.

[TartarusMkII]

Agreed on all of this. Nice work.

[BlazingAngel665]

Yes great thoughts! I hope the devs are going to implement thise features! it would make much more sense, and there would be an use for space stations, as well it will solve the problem i have with apollo style lander when nearly all the science is in the ship that isn't going back. I also would like a little lab for rovers like the one on the curiosity rover for processing samples directly on the surface, essential for unmanned probes that aren't going to come back.

Nice unmanned lab idea, OP is now updated.

This is definitively a problem, which kills pretty much the concept of a separated lander. Apollo astronauts would have been a little sorry if they had not been able to transfer the lunar samples from the LM to the CSM...

And since the soil samples are by much the most valuable science artefacts, there is no way to skip them.

Now, of course, you can add parachutes to the lander and push it back into Kerbin's atmosphere since there is no re-entry check yet, but I feel like it's cheating...

Having met two apollo astronauts, I think I can speak from experience that they would agree with you. However I tend to now use direct ascent designs, the deltaV savings on not carrying RCS makes it pretty much a wash.

i like this suggestion.

can we also have more null values? currently i can't take a pressure/temperature reading of deep space, but why not? it's kind of nice to have it confirmed that there is bugger all there. these sorts of readings are often quite useful.

Maybe even more interesting, we could have areas of space that aren't bugger all and we would have to find out why. . .

I agree with the OP! Great ideas and good summary of the issues as they stand. Also loving 0.22 with every whatsit of my doomahickeys - and stuff.

Well I'm glad your doomahickeys are enjoying it, mine sure are!

After posting my own thread on the topic and reading others, there seems to be a general consensus that science data should be transmittable/storable, and samples storable/transferable. There should also be mechanics that allow for long term space stations to be viable. Hopefully squad hears us out on this one.

You and me both buddy.

Agreed on all of this. Nice work.

Thanks, it was just a strike of radioactive waste outside my window. I felt woozy as the radiation started to kill me, then of my own accord I started typing the OP. . . I can't explain it! Now hopefully squad will implement this Soonâ„¢

[TelluriumCrystal]

Just thought of a little annoyance you could add to the list: If extended manually, antennas remain extended after transmitting. After all, why in the world would you completely pack up (and thus have to redeploy later) your main communications array every time you want to transmit?

My two cents.

[John FX]

I`d like the stupidity, or lack thereof, of my kerbals to have an effect on the amount of science they can do, or rather it would cap the maximum science they can get out of looking at rocks and stuff.

[Tw1]

Lots of good ideas here. I'd like to add some more to the pile.

Science per planet

Currently, science points are the same no matter were they are collected. Moving on to a harder planet is simple rewarded by more points, making points gain the motivating factor.

In sandbox, the motivations where more a combo of seeing if you could do it, and to go explore there- we didn't need to be pushed along.

Perhaps science could be collected per body. This would make it seem more purposeful when you go somewhere.

Going to Duna to find out about Duna, not just because you need more points.

This would be on top of the point earning system.

Data collation, and analysis.

Rather than just collecting points, it would be cool if you could gather actual data about the body, such as mineral compositions in a certain area, gravity data, terrain info etc.

Though the "Value" would diminish, you'd still get something out of doing multiple experiments in the same area.

Over time you could build up a profile of the planet, accessible in the R&D building. These profiles could be done in a way so it doesn't feel like you're just unlocking info, but collecting it. It could have tables, maps, graphs and messages from happy kerbal scientists.

Some basic information sorting would be nice, maybe. But that could be overkill.

Variance

In real life, data from experiments isn't away the same every time- there can be variation.

For example, if soil data gets added, surface composition tests could return values like this:

Duna plains regolith analysis:

Haematite 76.54%

Quartz 14.23%

Goethite 5.70%

Hydration: 0.51%

Other:

Frozen CO₂: 3.02%

The amounts of different minerals could vary based on distance from certain points, so you don't have to travel for kilometers for different results.

This way, your rover could drill the dirt many times, and each time get a unique result after analysis.

I agree with the OP and would like to add:

- Orbital EVAs above certain biomes ... why should they yield anything that could not be accomplished from inside the pod? Make them into orbital surveys to be done from the pod.

.

One could argue that you can see things much better from outside the pod, but that's about it. It makes sense when you are landed though, that the crew's experience would be different to when inside a pod.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Tw1

[cfds]

Your ideas for an improved science system are spot on. I especially like the disposable experiments, it would add some purpose to permanent space stations. A big part that, as of yet, is completely missing is the cornerstone of every space program ever: taking pictures of celestial objects. I expect cameras in the future, SQUAD guys!