If you're going to return samples, should you always transmit first?

[allmhuran]

For science that has dimishing returns on transmission, does an initial transmission (or multiple transmissions) cause a diminished return on the points earned if the data is also returned?

EG: Experiment X gives 20 points on return, and transmits with 50% loss.

If I just return, I get 20.

If I just transmit, I get 10.

What if I transmit first for 10, then again for 5 more, and then return? Would this give 10 + 5 + 20?

[KerbMav]

At the end of all experimenting you will gain every possible point before the returned value reaches zero.

It should be worth transmitting 2-3 times before returning the vessel to gain a reasonable amount of science points if you do not want to milk them dry by transmitting everything.

Transmitting a few times will reduce the value for a returned experiment, but this would not have the percentage loss of the transmission - and add a lump for returning a craft that orbited/landed on x.

You can also just go and try doing this on the launchpad with a simple pod-antenna craft.

[Oddible]

This is a great question. While you would certainly get the highest value from returning your first sample, you'd have to make another trip to collect all the data. At what point in the diminishing returns for sample data should you stop transmitting and just return the sample for the highest rate of return for a single trip to a planet? So as KerbMav recommended, transmitting 2-3 times then saving your 4th to bring home?

[MrPopcup]

What I do is keep tansmitting until it reaches 0.0 science points, then after I finish everything ( researching ) I send it back to kerbin, I think this is the best way to do it.

[allmhuran]

No doubt, but I'm not that patient! (Also on tier 0 the main limiting factor is electricity, preventing the gains from multiple retransmissions)

[The_Rocketeer]

I recommend you make a study and post up your results!

[KerbMav]

Ah yes, electricity ... on tier 0 simply make lots of EVAs and take ground samples on your landing sites - if you cannot built something that reaches a stable orbit (if you can then aim for a polar orbit for lots of possible EVA locations) than make your gravity turn into different directions for multiple launches to reach different terrain.

[The_Rocketeer]

So far I've returned my experiments every time with no transmissions (except for crew reports/100% return rates on transmissions). Assuming I return the experiments again, second trips will yield around in the region of 1/3 science of first return, and I guess they'll diminish by a similar proportion every time. Since I'm unlocking the tech tree systematically, repeated trips will be necessary to facilitate more advanced experiments anyway (barometer, accelerometer etc) so I'm not worried about exploiting maximum value for every single trip on the first go. Returning experiments from Mun/Minmus is easy once u've unlocked basic solar panels, so I can't really see a long-term advantage to sending any 20% or 40% yield transmissions until I'm sending deep space probes out to distant planets. The game's much more challenging if you play from a 'returns only' attitude.

[allmhuran]

so I can't really see a long-term advantage to sending any 20% or 40% yield transmissions until I'm sending deep space probes out to distant planets.

Long term shmong term!

I am building my second career mission and trying to plan the science gathering. Since I earned 1662 science from my first mission, and have therefore unlocked nuclear engines, my second mission is going to be a grand tour, with the goal of collecting, geez, I can only guess, but I suppose many tens of thousands of science. This is why I am curious about the optimum strategy for a single mission.

[toomuchbrew]

It doesn't matter if you return or transmit. You will get the same amount of science in the end. As some great forum sage said (sorry, I forget who it was), think of it like a well. Say the well had 1 gallon of water. Equate returning samples to a quart scoop and transmitting a teaspoon. It doesn't matter which you use, you still only scoop 1 gallon of water. Only the time invested changes.

[The_Rocketeer]

Long term shmong term!

I am building my second career mission and trying to plan the science gathering. Since I earned 1662 science from my first mission, and have therefore unlocked nuclear engines, my second mission is going to be a grand tour, with the goal of collecting, geez, I can only guess, but I suppose many tens of thousands of science. This is why I am curious about the optimum strategy for a single mission.

You won't get that much science out of the distant planets because they have no biomes. The whole point of the biome system on Kerbin and Mun is to make it easy to gain science in relatively short-range missions. Once you've unlocked everything, science is useless.

The short answer to your original question is, you can transmit all available data from space without coming back at all, and if you're grand-touring you'll have a lot of time and solar energy to waste on transmitting.

Afterthought - once you've unlocked everything you might as well be playing in sandbox. Why bother with career at all?

Edited October 22, 2013 by The_Rocketeer

[KerbMav]

You won't get that much science out of the distant planets because they have no biomes.

Yet.

The whole point of the biome system on Kerbin and Mun is to make it easy to gain science in relatively short-range missions.

I think the point is rather to give the player more places to go, instead of just going to the Mun once and pump its science points in a single mission.

And having lots of locations to gather science feels kinda less grindy than {REPEAT transmit UNTIL scienceGain = 0}.

Once you've unlocked everything, science is useless.

As useless as every highscore at least.

The short answer to your original question is, you can transmit all available data from space without coming back at all, and if you're grand-touring you'll have a lot of time and solar energy to waste on transmitting.

Yes, but the meaning of a game is for it to be played. Gathering science and maxing the tree is not a task in and of itself.

[allmhuran]

You won't get that much science out of the distant planets because they have no biomes.

This is true. But they are also worth more. If I recall correctly, a probe dropped into Jool's atmosphere with a pressure sensor can return over 2000 science for that experiment alone.

[KerbMav]

Maybe it should be rethought if the experiments available later into the career give that much science or if the gizmos should be available earlier.

Depending on that decision maybe the more elaborate experiments - the goo and material container - should swap their position in the tree with the simpler thermo-, baro-, gravi-, accel-o-meters. (sic! )

[toomuchbrew]

I think the career tree is a great addition. Unless you are Scott Manley, it gives another challenge to veteran players who are used to having all the parts available. It makes them change their thought process to try to solve simple tasks with limited tech. I like that mainsails are so far down the tree. My pre-mainsail rockets had to be completely redesigned with the reduced lift on the skippers. Side note: when I first bought ksp, I played nearly 20 hours per day while I was out for surgery. Now with career mode my work is making me miserable. I have to go to bed and can't play all night

Edited October 22, 2013 by toomuchbrew
phone typos

[The_Rocketeer]

I think you misunderstand my point about biomes - I was refering to the fact that they exist on Kerbin and Mun but not other worlds (yet). There would be other ways to create motivation and objectives (missions) for going to other planets, but it was a tidy move by Squad to incorporate the motivation for repeated missions to the same world into the research system. Since you obviously need more research close to Kerbin to unlock interplanetary capabilities, it makes sense to have abundant accessible science rewards within Kerbin's SOI.

I love the career tree, but since this aspect of the game is still being heavily developed at the present time, setting high-scores is a bit null. I guess the sport of game-breaking is an acquired taste.

[DerekL1963]

You won't get that much science out of the distant planets because they have no biomes.

I just finished with an Eve/Gilly probe and ended up with 1200 science points via transmission. (SC-9001 Science Jr. and Mystery Goo Containment Unit, high Eve orbit, high and low Gilly orbit.) That's nothing to sneeze at.

[The_Rocketeer]

Not at all, but it's not 'tens of thousands' either is it?

[toomuchbrew]

I just finished with an Eve/Gilly probe and ended up with 1200 science points via transmission. (SC-9001 Science Jr. and Mystery Goo Containment Unit, high Eve orbit, high and low Gilly orbit.) That's nothing to sneeze at.

I was able to send a probe to Duna, do a bunch of high/low orbit science and then orbited Ike high and low and then landed on Ike. That trip was work about 2k science if I remember correctly. (don't forget to do science on the way there through interplanetary space either).

[Motokid600]

Squad needs to add MUCH more to the game before any more biomes are added. As is... You can max out the tech tree a dozen times over with all the science in the solar system. We need more parts or .. just more stuff to unlock. What ever it may be. And the tech tree needs to be expanded by a considerable amount.

But.. in the end we are going to have resources and currency to deal with. ( which id imagine would fill out the tech tree very nicely. ) So all this is moot. Heh.. I bet a few months down the line you won't even recognize the career mode.

[Skorpychan]

Well, this IS still in testing. It's a fine simulation of a career mode, unlocking things by gathering and spending science points.

[allmhuran]

Not at all, but it's not 'tens of thousands' either is it?

Lets break this down.

Kerbin and the Mun have lots of Biomes. This means there are more places to get science on these bodies. But the VALUE of the science from these bodies is low.

Jool only has one biome, but the VALUE of experiments from Jool is much higher.

Therefore if you take a ship to the Joolian system, the amount of science you can collect is very high. If you start at Kerbin and go to the Jool system AND the Duna system AND Eelo AND the Eve system then return to Minmus, the Mun and Kerbin, I expect it will easily be in the tens of thousands.

[The_Rocketeer]

To bring this back to your original question, the fastest most efficient way to recover all available Science points would be to equip a single ship with 20 of each experiment, a massive battery and a good transmitter. Assign all the experiments to one action group, gather and transmit all the available points at once. Then you don't even need to bring the ship home again.

I'd be interested in a screen of your science points recovered when your done.

[pinolallo]

In my opinion:

a) manned flight (with return) is heavy underscored. Facts tell that the best strategy is to send probes around to gain fast science point, useless the return home so also the value of hitchhiker, docking or flag dropping. Make just a mün manned return mission is not so easy, mimnus is easier. For example sending a caps full of small battery to transmit on a fly-by mission with kerbol orbit ending (without return) can pay at very early stage more than 1000 point, but you will sacrifice a kerbal.

you can't be able to recover all points from a random land, I think that you must have more points on manned returning mission with KSC landing.

[allmhuran]

I'd be interested in a screen of your science points recovered when your done.

I will probably make a video to follow on from my first mission video (see sig), but this time might actually do some commentary (explanation, tutorial, etc)