Have surface sample requirements for unlocking some parts in career

[John FX]

For example, to unlock the NERVA you would have to get enough science to unlock the node, have the correct required nodes unlocked *and* return a surface sample from Duna to get the radioactive material (would probably unlock the NTG as well). Minmus might have certain stuff in its surface to discover composite materials which would enable bigger fuel tanks etc

That sort of thing.

[John FX]

Nobody got any views?

I thought it would give some benefit to actually returning a physical sample rather than just transmitting.

[Sathurn]

I dislike it.

However, having a progressive "quest", I like. Despite having a "career" mode, this is a sand box game. Forcing you to land on Kerbin's desserts or poles or any where else, before going to another planet would annoy experienced players. However having a career guided mission (which gets you money, science and possibly Kerbol training, and is optional) strikes me as a good idea.

[Eric S]

I dislike it because it feels too unrealistic. NERVA was in testing before we set foot on the moon, and supposedly ready for a run-up to actual deployment shortly thereafter.

As I understand it, what you've done will affect what optional missions career mode offers you, but that's as far as it will go, and as far as it should go unless science gets a lot more complicated than it is now. If science is going to be more complicated, I'd like the complication to be grounded in reality rather than arbitrary goals.

That said, I'm not opposed to return samples or even recovery of experiments providing benefits that transmitting results back don't, even if it's just a different diminishing returns cap.

[Khobai]

I dislike it because it feels too unrealistic

And going to other planets as little green spacemen is realistic?

[John FX]

It`s not meant to be realistic, it`s meant to be a game mechanic designed to encourage exploration and stop the process of

get tier 1, spam science, unlock all parts

Instead we would have

get tier 1, spam science, visit most of the solar system to unlock all the parts.

Any science on Kerbin should get you parts that can get you to mun and minmus and getting to either will get you further and so on...

I assumed Kerbin had no radioactives and Duna did for backstory if that is important

[Eric S]

And going to other planets as little green spacemen is realistic?

When there are more realistic ways of achieving the same effect, yes, this is too unrealistic.

It`s not meant to be realistic, it`s meant to be a game mechanic

Frankly, I agree with what you're trying to fix, just not the mechanism. The problem is the fact that we can use transmissions to grind out all available science in a single trip, and do that in multiple biomes. If either there were a limit on how many time a given piece of equipment could run a single experiment, or if there were a limit on how much science you could get in a single experiment/biome via transmissions, then returning experiments would be more important. Admittedly, pure sensor experiments don't fit into this model well, but for those that do, it's more realistic than what you're suggesting. Not saying that this method would be better in all regards, just saying what I don't like about your method.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Eric S

[Winter Man]

Thing is though when money's implemented, SPAM SCIENCE won't be possible because you just won't be able to afford it.

[kurja]

Thing is though when money's implemented, SPAM SCIENCE won't be possible because you just won't be able to afford it.

I hope so. Not to say that the system couldn't use improving.

But I do agree with the suggestion on a general level, some discoveries could depend on specific achievements - no matter how many "points" player has, science node X can't be discovered untill experiment Z has been done.

[allmappedout]

I hope so. Not to say that the system couldn't use improving.

But I do agree with the suggestion on a general level, some discoveries could depend on specific achievements - no matter how many "points" player has, science node X can't be discovered untill experiment Z has been done.

I actually really like the idea; again, referring to Xcom (as I usually seem to do!), there were specific pieces of technology that couldn't be researched until you had seen how the Aliens did it. Some things would then lead to better human versions, but the 'scientific leap' came from reverse engineering. That's something I'd like to see down the Kerbal road.

[John FX]

I actually really like the idea; again, referring to Xcom (as I usually seem to do!), there were specific pieces of technology that couldn't be researched until you had seen how the Aliens did it. Some things would then lead to better human versions, but the 'scientific leap' came from reverse engineering. That's something I'd like to see down the Kerbal road.

Hehe, it would be funny if the start of their space program was finding a crashed shuttle with two ape skeletons in it...

[Winter Man]

I actually really like the idea; again, referring to Xcom (as I usually seem to do!), there were specific pieces of technology that couldn't be researched until you had seen how the Aliens did it. Some things would then lead to better human versions, but the 'scientific leap' came from reverse engineering. That's something I'd like to see down the Kerbal road.

You could even take that a step further to say the experiments had to be done in a specific environment, e.g. you need to take an AMS to into deep space to discover what dark energy really is and build yourself a warp drive (endgame example).

[allmappedout]

Hehe, it would be funny if the start of their space program was finding a crashed shuttle with two ape skeletons in it...

Especially if Werner von Kerman then came on the screen and told you to be more careful in your landings to preserve the specimens

You could even take that a step further to say the experiments had to be done in a specific environment, e.g. you need to take an AMS to into deep space to discover what dark energy really is and build yourself a warp drive (endgame example).

This is exactly what I want; I want science to be deep, fulfilling and varied. I want to see various disciplines of science included, and different experiments being required to fulfil these criteria. I want certain unlocks to be only available with a 'lightbulb moment', in that something specific has to occur for the Kerbals to think of it (ie: maybe ladders only unlock once you've fallen over after getting out of a lander can(!), or parachutes only unlock after you de-orbit and lithobrake too hard). Obviously, these are silly examples, which wouldn't fit into the game mechanic well, but you get my point.

I just don't like the idea of science being a grind at the minute. The potential is there with the biomes and the various areas, but I guess at the minute we probably don't have enough part variety to make this approach feasible. I do hope that it's improved upon in future versions as at the minute the way science is conducted is too 'gamey', rather than fun (and it's a shame, because actually all the mechanics could support this already)

[Winter Man]

With tweakables though there'll be plenty of variety. Little upgrades to efficiency or capacity here and there for the little things like your probe running out of juice before it makes Kerbol orbit (before solar power), or slightly lighter parts if your spaceplane doesn't make it off the end of the runway. Don't need a massive parts list for that 'un.

[SunJumper]

Maybe instead of having a hard requirement, how about having these be soft requirements.

What is a soft requirement? It is not required to unlock something, but makes the task of unlocking said thing easier. For example, the node for the LV-N could cost 1000 science and 10000 money, but transmitting a sample from Eve's oceans might reduce the cost to 500 science and 4000 money. In-universe, you get information that directly goes towards the LV-N, and the huge fuel source accelerates funding for the engine.

[allmappedout]

With tweakables though there'll be plenty of variety. Little upgrades to efficiency or capacity here and there for the little things like your probe running out of juice before it makes Kerbol orbit (before solar power), or slightly lighter parts if your spaceplane doesn't make it off the end of the runway. Don't need a massive parts list for that 'un.

Sure, that's definitely a given. What I mean is that there's still quite a few areas that haven't been covered off by stock yet, of which tweakables will provide a fair amount, but there's still a lot of parts missing for, say, space stations, or even hopefully things like decals and/or colour changes, as well as robotics, more aero variety, etc. There's always space for more variety

SunJumper. I quite like the idea, I guess there's some potential for balance abuse (in that going to Eve is already going to net you hundreds of science points), but I understand that the mechanic could potentially work.

[SunJumper]

Sure, that's definitely a given. What I mean is that there's still quite a few areas that haven't been covered off by stock yet, of which tweakables will provide a fair amount, but there's still a lot of parts missing for, say, space stations, or even hopefully things like decals and/or colour changes, as well as robotics, more aero variety, etc. There's always space for more variety

SunJumper. I quite like the idea, I guess there's some potential for balance abuse (in that going to Eve is already going to net you hundreds of science points), but I understand that the mechanic could potentially work.

To clarify, the bonus for the LV-N example as above would only happen once. It would be like, "You have found concentrations of a mysterious radioactive element dissolved in the mercury. This element appears to get much hotter than Uranium or even Plutonium at close to critical mass, and can be used to make much better nuclear rockets. We are going to research the already known radioactive metals to see how this one may work, giving you a valuable insight into how to build an NTR in the process. Also, we are going to finance you six million dollars into your NTR research."

[Sathurn]

I do support the idea of some projects giving a discount to some research. BUT no hard limits.

[John FX]

Maybe instead of having a hard requirement, how about having these be soft requirements.

What is a soft requirement? It is not required to unlock something, but makes the task of unlocking said thing easier. For example, the node for the LV-N could cost 1000 science and 10000 money, but transmitting a sample from Eve's oceans might reduce the cost to 500 science and 4000 money. In-universe, you get information that directly goes towards the LV-N, and the huge fuel source accelerates funding for the engine.

I like that, it gives a benefit to returning physical samples but does not make them a game breaker. Not sure about putting them on eve though, pretty hard to get back as it is in sandbox.

[Eric S]

At any rate, judging from what they said during the developer live stream, they're definitely doing something to discourage the infinite transmitted experiment spam. It'll be interesting to see what they decided on.

[Jiman]

The KSP wiki (with no citation atm) says that future plans include mining features on other planets (no clue if it is true.)

Also, look at everything in game. It has a cost. There is going to be future ways of getting money to buy parts, and that is something to smooth progression a tad as well as make the player think about costs and what not.

[Filippe999]

that would be cool, if the actual parts could be boosted so it's worth the effort of going very far and back, i would hate to travel to duna and back just to get a mainsail as it currently is, if it perhaps 1k more thrust and 0.1 less efficient, etc. perhaps some parts would be optional once you get a sample from minmus, you could go for example going to duna would get me more solid boosters and general increase in efficiency, while choosing Eve would unlock better engines and more efficients solid fuel burning etc.

I support the idea if the rebalance they components we unlock so it's worth the effort.